Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

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  • #881
  • #882
Having thought about it in the morning. Trump is not a person to either forgive or forget. I remember the situation with Romney during last term. We expected him to be invited to the cabinet, given that Romney was, all things considered, a smart and seasoned politician, but no. What is needed for Trump is personal loyalty, 100%. So given that Trump took 2019-20 contacts with Zelenskiyy personally, I think Volodymyr was invited to the WH for this scene.

Question: no matter what we saw, everyone in the WH is practical. Will Trump sign an agreement with someone else from Ukraine, whom he doesn’t remember from the old times, or not?

I don’t know.
 
  • #883
tbh imo not including Ukraine or the EU when we will be funding this isnt the way to go. Also how can our leaders even trust him?
I don’t think anyone can trust him 100% but I think we need to keep trying. What are the other options? Funding the war is not sustainable forever for any country.

People hate that Trump is on good terms with Putin (I get it) but I’m thanking God that he is. We need an open door and I believe other world leaders might agree this isn’t a bad thing.

All imo
 
  • #884
JMO, the prior agreement had the US helping provide air coverage and intelligence. European allies were going to provide troops,etc.

A plan had been developed outlining each allied country's role. When Trump decided to renege on the US part, the other allies had to try to fill the gap. Either way, it required further planning and negotiation before a new agreement could be developed.

That's what is happening now. The European allies have been meeting and developing a plan that doesn't include US participation in providing security. EU will handle it. Good for them.

Now Trump is trying to sabotage the agreement by insisting that Zelenskyy resign. Not going to happen and the EU will back him up. I predict popular opinion in the US will also be with EU and Zelenskyy. I assume Trump is trying to sabotage an agreement as a pretext for allowing Putin and the US to do as they wish in Ukraine. If Trump tries to call out troops to attack Ukraine, I suspect he will become very unpopular very quickly here at home.

Americans will never accept deserting European (and Canadian, Australian) alliances in favor of an alignment with Russia, nor Saudi Arabia for that matter.

JMO

@Betty P, I think that the axis of international importance is moving to Asia. For everyone.
 
  • #885
It’s such an easy solution it’s fantastic nobody thought of it before. Isn’t that the solution in South America - or at least during the cold war? Infiltration, divide and conquer - all that usual jazz.

I guess there are contractors and then there are Contractors.
Those contractors are likely to be in the middle of Ukraine and out of the way of the Russians and Trump has made it clear hes not interested in protecting Ukrainians. How many would there even be?
I don’t think anyone can trust him 100% but I think we need to keep trying. What are the other options? Funding the war is not sustainable forever for any country.

People hate that Trump is on good terms with Putin (I get it) but I’m thanking God that he is. We need an open door and I believe other world leaders might agree this isn’t a bad thing.

All imo
I am going to be honest. Before they were elected most Labour Mp's did not like Trump. They certainly do not like Musk and I doubt they do Vance. We expected hell and tbh and hes confirmed our worst nightmares. He has thrown an ally under the bus for Putin. Kinda hard to get past that where trust is concerned especially with national secrets.
 
  • #886

Ukraine says it uncovered $40 million corruption scheme in weapons procurement

Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) said it has discovered a mass corruption scheme in the purchase of weapons by the country’s military amounting to nearly $40 million (1.5 billion Ukrainian hryvnia).

The SBU said the embezzlement involved the purchase of 100,000 mortar rounds for Ukraine’s Armed Forces in the fall of 2022.

Ukraine’s Defense Ministry paid nearly all of the funds to arms supplier Lviv Arsenal, but the SBU said the ammunition was never received. Instead, it said some of the funds had been transferred to foreign accounts, including in the Balkans.
 
  • #887
JMO, the prior agreement had the US helping provide air coverage and intelligence. European allies were going to provide troops,etc.
Was there another agreement? I've not heard nor seen. The US has been adamant security would need to be provided by another source.

Would you have a information on when this was stated?

Thanks
 
  • #888
  • #889
Mr Starmer shot back that it would be a "huge mistake" to cut ties with America. He said: "On the dependency on the US, I don't agree with him. The US and the UK have the closest relationships of defence and security are completely intertwined."
 
  • #890
Mr Starmer shot back that it would be a "huge mistake" to cut ties with America. He said: "On the dependency on the US, I don't agree with him. The US and the UK have the closest relationships of defence and security are completely intertwined."
He is the Pm you would expect him to say that. The other Ministers are not in the same position :)
 
  • #891
Mr Starmer shot back that it would be a "huge mistake" to cut ties with America. He said: "On the dependency on the US, I don't agree with him. The US and the UK have the closest relationships of defence and security are completely intertwined."

There are many delicate defence and intelligence relationships between the allies. It will take a lot of sorting out of those to cut ties with the US.

Eg: Australia has a massive OTHR (Over the Horizon Radar) system that it operates and provides info to the western world about Asia. The US is included in our global ties with that. And we become concerned when this information may be leaked by the US now compromising their cyber security system.

imo

 
  • #892
a dutch news platform did an interview with a former russian diplomat. he worked for the russian foreign ministry for 20 years and he was the only diplomat to publicly cut ties with putin after the invasian of ukraine.

it’s quite a long text but i think it’s an interesting perspective, so i pasted an english translation below




Russian ex-diplomat: Europe fails to impress, speak to Putin in gangster language

Russian defected UN diplomat Boris Bondarev has a hard head about European plans for Ukraine. From the beginning it has been "mainly words, words and words," he says in conversation with Nieuwsuur. "What is missing are deeds."

At the security summit in London on Sunday, European leaders came up with plans for security and peace in Ukraine. With France, the U.K. will also initiate a peace plan, an alternative to a deal between the U.S. and Russia.

But that, according to Bondarev, does not impress the Kremlin at all. The plans are not concrete enough. Europe remains too dependent on America, he believes. According to him, it only shows that Europe is not prepared for anything. "We are entering the fourth year of war and Europe has no vision. Europe has no plan. Europe has no strategy."

Bondarev, who worked for the Russian Foreign Ministry for 20 years, was the only Russian diplomat to publicly break with Moscow when Russia invaded Ukraine. As long as Vladimir Putin is in power, Kyiv has no serious negotiating partner, he says. "Every negotiator is an extension of Putin and his imperialist plans."

False bravery
The increase in defense budgets announced by several countries is having no effect now, according to former diplomat Bondarev. "It takes a while to build industrial facilities to produce weapons. Then it takes 10, 15 years before your armed forces have more weapons. But the war is henceforth."

All is not enough, Bondarev believes. He sharply criticizes the West. "Not enough arms supplies to Ukraine. Not enough aid. Not enough pressure on Russia. Not enough, not enough, not enough," he says. Fear of Russia underlies this, he believes. "Europe is afraid to do anything completely. Just like Donald Trump. Despite his false courage, he too is afraid of Russia."

Thereby - says the former diplomat - the Americans have little to offer Russia. "Trade with the U.S. has been quite insignificant compared to trade with Europe or with China. China gives Russia what it needs. Putin will never sacrifice that."

Sauer agrees somewhat with the ex-diplomat. "NATO chief Mark Rutte says he is in close contact with Trump. That he talks to him almost daily. That he is sure Trump wants peace. But all we see is the opposite: all we see is that Trump wants to do business with Russia."

When you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language.

If it turns out that Trump does not want to go along with European plans for Ukraine, Sauer says Europe will really have to step up to the plate. That's entirely possible, too, he says. "Money enough. There is 250 billion in Russian frozen assets in a Belgian account. That can go to Ukraine's defense industry, one of the best right now. We think we are not powerful enough, but Europe is really a giant bloc."

Therefore, Europe should also stop fixating on American support, Bondarev believes. "Russia is at war with Europe." He cites cyber attacks, sabotage of underwater cables, interference in elections and bribing European politicians as examples. "European leaders say: Putin is at war with us, but we are not at war with Putin. That sounds schizophrenic."

The basic rule of diplomacy, which Europe does not understand, according to the former diplomat, is: "If you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language. European leaders think: negotiate, negotiate and negotiate and be polite. But Putin won't stop until he understands that his next move may be his last. That's when Europe declares nuclear war on him."

Sauer also thinks Putin has no intention of stopping the war at all. "In Putin's experience, things are moving in the right direction. He has a long breath. Even though he is destroying the Russian economy and driving a whole generation of young people to their deaths. Putin will just keep doing that."

Bondarev outlines the current situation one more time, using a Russian fable. "An elephant moves through the city and a small dog barks at him. The latter says to other dogs: look, I am brave, I am barking at the huge elephant. But the elephant didn't even notice the dog. Just like Putin," says Bondarev. "You can bark at him, he will smile and at the same time he will continue bombing Ukraine."
 
  • #893

Trump and his allies dig in on opposition to Zelensky​


Bernd Debusmann Jr
Reporting from the White House

In a recent post to his social media platfotm Truth Social, US President Donald Trump has - again - accused Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky of standing in the way of potential peace negotiations.

"America will not put up with it for much longer," Trump wrote. "This guy [Zelensky] doesn't want there to be peace as long as he has America's backing."

Following the Oval Office meeting between Zelensky and Trump's team on Friday, several of the US president's political allies have suggested that they no longer see Zelensky as a viable US partner moving forward.

Just hours after the Oval Office meeting, for example, South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said he did not know "if we can ever do business with Zelensky again".

"He either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with," Graham added. "Or he needs to change."

Administration officials have, so far, provided little detail into what - if anything - Zelensky can do to redeem himself in the eyes of the White House.

Later today, Trump will reportedly meet with senior administration officials such as national security advisor Mike Waltz to discuss potential next steps on Ukraine.

The White House has so far not responded to various requests for comment from the BBC.

Earlier in the day, Waltz told Fox News that he believes the "American people's patience is not unlimited. Their wallets are not unlimited, and our stockpiles and munitions are not unlimited.

"So the time to talk is now."

"Just hours after the Oval Office meeting, for example, South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said he did not know "if we can ever do business with Zelensky again".

"He either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with," Graham added. "Or he needs to change.""

Lindsey Graham is a flip flopping opportunist who will change his tune with the political sentiment of the day. I don't know why the news agencies put him on the camera as he has no value. I will bet if you ask him his favorite food dish he will scan the room to see what everyone else is eating.
 
  • #894

White House directs officials to draft proposal to lift US sanctions on Russia​

Sources say work on so-called ‘options paper’ comes as Trump seeks to restore Moscow ties and end Ukraine war

 
  • #895
a dutch news platform did an interview with a former russian diplomat. he worked for the russian foreign ministry for 20 years and he was the only diplomat to publicly cut ties with putin after the invasian of ukraine.

it’s quite a long text but i think it’s an interesting perspective, so i pasted an english translation below




Russian ex-diplomat: Europe fails to impress, speak to Putin in gangster language

Russian defected UN diplomat Boris Bondarev has a hard head about European plans for Ukraine. From the beginning it has been "mainly words, words and words," he says in conversation with Nieuwsuur. "What is missing are deeds."

At the security summit in London on Sunday, European leaders came up with plans for security and peace in Ukraine. With France, the U.K. will also initiate a peace plan, an alternative to a deal between the U.S. and Russia.

But that, according to Bondarev, does not impress the Kremlin at all. The plans are not concrete enough. Europe remains too dependent on America, he believes. According to him, it only shows that Europe is not prepared for anything. "We are entering the fourth year of war and Europe has no vision. Europe has no plan. Europe has no strategy."

Bondarev, who worked for the Russian Foreign Ministry for 20 years, was the only Russian diplomat to publicly break with Moscow when Russia invaded Ukraine. As long as Vladimir Putin is in power, Kyiv has no serious negotiating partner, he says. "Every negotiator is an extension of Putin and his imperialist plans."

False bravery
The increase in defense budgets announced by several countries is having no effect now, according to former diplomat Bondarev. "It takes a while to build industrial facilities to produce weapons. Then it takes 10, 15 years before your armed forces have more weapons. But the war is henceforth."

All is not enough, Bondarev believes. He sharply criticizes the West. "Not enough arms supplies to Ukraine. Not enough aid. Not enough pressure on Russia. Not enough, not enough, not enough," he says. Fear of Russia underlies this, he believes. "Europe is afraid to do anything completely. Just like Donald Trump. Despite his false courage, he too is afraid of Russia."

Thereby - says the former diplomat - the Americans have little to offer Russia. "Trade with the U.S. has been quite insignificant compared to trade with Europe or with China. China gives Russia what it needs. Putin will never sacrifice that."

Sauer agrees somewhat with the ex-diplomat. "NATO chief Mark Rutte says he is in close contact with Trump. That he talks to him almost daily. That he is sure Trump wants peace. But all we see is the opposite: all we see is that Trump wants to do business with Russia."

When you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language.

If it turns out that Trump does not want to go along with European plans for Ukraine, Sauer says Europe will really have to step up to the plate. That's entirely possible, too, he says. "Money enough. There is 250 billion in Russian frozen assets in a Belgian account. That can go to Ukraine's defense industry, one of the best right now. We think we are not powerful enough, but Europe is really a giant bloc."

Therefore, Europe should also stop fixating on American support, Bondarev believes. "Russia is at war with Europe." He cites cyber attacks, sabotage of underwater cables, interference in elections and bribing European politicians as examples. "European leaders say: Putin is at war with us, but we are not at war with Putin. That sounds schizophrenic."

The basic rule of diplomacy, which Europe does not understand, according to the former diplomat, is: "If you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language. European leaders think: negotiate, negotiate and negotiate and be polite. But Putin won't stop until he understands that his next move may be his last. That's when Europe declares nuclear war on him."

Sauer also thinks Putin has no intention of stopping the war at all. "In Putin's experience, things are moving in the right direction. He has a long breath. Even though he is destroying the Russian economy and driving a whole generation of young people to their deaths. Putin will just keep doing that."

Bondarev outlines the current situation one more time, using a Russian fable. "An elephant moves through the city and a small dog barks at him. The latter says to other dogs: look, I am brave, I am barking at the huge elephant. But the elephant didn't even notice the dog. Just like Putin," says Bondarev. "You can bark at him, he will smile and at the same time he will continue bombing Ukraine."
Always thinking like the KGB he is, it is a mindset, how he rolls, say. No peace for him, just the big piece of Ukraine and any other land he can get. He murders people who think, act and say differently, for years and years.
 
  • #896

White House directs officials to draft proposal to lift US sanctions on Russia​

Sources say work on so-called ‘options paper’ comes as Trump seeks to restore Moscow ties and end Ukraine war


Wouldn't it be nice if anyone actually knew what Russia and the US spoke about during their "peace talks"?

imo
 
  • #897

Safe return of stolen Ukrainian children must be part of peace discussions - PM​


Johanna Baxter MP speaks to MPs on 3 March 2025
IMAGE SOURCE, BBC PARLIAMENT

Back in the Commons, Labour MP Johanna Baxter asks Starmer whether he agrees with her that for any lasting peace to be achieved in Ukraine “Russia must return the 19,556 children that they have stolen”.

Starmer says it’s a “moral outrage” that these children have been taken, adding “we must ensure their safe return” and that it must be part of any discussion. He thanks Baxter for bringing it up and adds they should do so more often.

 
  • #898
This is what I don't get. People seem to like the idea of America going alone. For me, we have always been told the US is our biggest ally. That we have the same language and the same ideals. But things have changed. Musk says America should leave Nato. Fine tbh. But...several times America have wanted help and the allies have willingly assisted. It is what allies do but if America drives everyone away then who will help them? and thats a genuine question.
These are (to themselves) tough guys, they don't need "help". Only weaklings need help. That's why they despise Zelenskyy - he asks for help and then suggests they might be attacked by Russia. That's when they exploded in rage, IMO, a suggestion that the USA was weaker than Russia.

If, for example, they intend to economically destroy and annex Canada, wrest Greenland from Norway, and seize the Panama Canal - just as a start - their allies will object.

So I think the attitude about 'going it alone' is more: no more nice guy, everyone else is just a competitor, we will destroy competitors, and that will make us strong.

JMO
 
  • #899
  • #900
a dutch news platform did an interview with a former russian diplomat. he worked for the russian foreign ministry for 20 years and he was the only diplomat to publicly cut ties with putin after the invasian of ukraine.

it’s quite a long text but i think it’s an interesting perspective, so i pasted an english translation below




Russian ex-diplomat: Europe fails to impress, speak to Putin in gangster language

Russian defected UN diplomat Boris Bondarev has a hard head about European plans for Ukraine. From the beginning it has been "mainly words, words and words," he says in conversation with Nieuwsuur. "What is missing are deeds."

At the security summit in London on Sunday, European leaders came up with plans for security and peace in Ukraine. With France, the U.K. will also initiate a peace plan, an alternative to a deal between the U.S. and Russia.

But that, according to Bondarev, does not impress the Kremlin at all. The plans are not concrete enough. Europe remains too dependent on America, he believes. According to him, it only shows that Europe is not prepared for anything. "We are entering the fourth year of war and Europe has no vision. Europe has no plan. Europe has no strategy."

Bondarev, who worked for the Russian Foreign Ministry for 20 years, was the only Russian diplomat to publicly break with Moscow when Russia invaded Ukraine. As long as Vladimir Putin is in power, Kyiv has no serious negotiating partner, he says. "Every negotiator is an extension of Putin and his imperialist plans."

False bravery
The increase in defense budgets announced by several countries is having no effect now, according to former diplomat Bondarev. "It takes a while to build industrial facilities to produce weapons. Then it takes 10, 15 years before your armed forces have more weapons. But the war is henceforth."

All is not enough, Bondarev believes. He sharply criticizes the West. "Not enough arms supplies to Ukraine. Not enough aid. Not enough pressure on Russia. Not enough, not enough, not enough," he says. Fear of Russia underlies this, he believes. "Europe is afraid to do anything completely. Just like Donald Trump. Despite his false courage, he too is afraid of Russia."

Thereby - says the former diplomat - the Americans have little to offer Russia. "Trade with the U.S. has been quite insignificant compared to trade with Europe or with China. China gives Russia what it needs. Putin will never sacrifice that."

Sauer agrees somewhat with the ex-diplomat. "NATO chief Mark Rutte says he is in close contact with Trump. That he talks to him almost daily. That he is sure Trump wants peace. But all we see is the opposite: all we see is that Trump wants to do business with Russia."

When you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language.

If it turns out that Trump does not want to go along with European plans for Ukraine, Sauer says Europe will really have to step up to the plate. That's entirely possible, too, he says. "Money enough. There is 250 billion in Russian frozen assets in a Belgian account. That can go to Ukraine's defense industry, one of the best right now. We think we are not powerful enough, but Europe is really a giant bloc."

Therefore, Europe should also stop fixating on American support, Bondarev believes. "Russia is at war with Europe." He cites cyber attacks, sabotage of underwater cables, interference in elections and bribing European politicians as examples. "European leaders say: Putin is at war with us, but we are not at war with Putin. That sounds schizophrenic."

The basic rule of diplomacy, which Europe does not understand, according to the former diplomat, is: "If you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language. European leaders think: negotiate, negotiate and negotiate and be polite. But Putin won't stop until he understands that his next move may be his last. That's when Europe declares nuclear war on him."

Sauer also thinks Putin has no intention of stopping the war at all. "In Putin's experience, things are moving in the right direction. He has a long breath. Even though he is destroying the Russian economy and driving a whole generation of young people to their deaths. Putin will just keep doing that."

Bondarev outlines the current situation one more time, using a Russian fable. "An elephant moves through the city and a small dog barks at him. The latter says to other dogs: look, I am brave, I am barking at the huge elephant. But the elephant didn't even notice the dog. Just like Putin," says Bondarev. "You can bark at him, he will smile and at the same time he will continue bombing Ukraine."
Wow, great article. Reminds me of reading Patton, his philosophy was... Just keep moving forward, never stop, never slow down.

"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." George W Patton

Companies/governments become caught up in "plan making", disagreement over the plan, revision, etc... and lack actions. The more folks involved the harder to reach a decision. It takes a strong leader to quickly develop a strategy and just keep moving forward.

Already we see fractures from the recent European meeting Sunday.
Moo
 
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