Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

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  • #901
<modsnip - quoted post was removed for unapproved source>

Trump is delusional if he thinks that Zelenskyy signing this deal will protect Ukraine. Watch the entire video 49+ minutes. Zelenskyy went into the meeting eagerly and gratefully, as in "trust and verify", but clearly Trump is distrustful.
 
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  • #902
It's so horrible to see 'the AMERICAN'S' when what t and his people have created. Not all on any level. I think the best buds showing what that means for us, will get the quiet ones up in arms, in their heads and hope they vote them out where they can, come state elections. A start, this has to be stopped and turned around, every single act that has been done and will be done.
 
  • #903
From the article.... And I'm totally agree with this statement.
The age of European overreliance on the United States in which we opt for the cosy life of the welfare state over economic growth and co-dependence over self-sufficiency is well and truly over.

It is time for the UK to follow the lead of Donald Trump and follow our eternal and perpetual interests.
 
  • #904
Wow, great article. Reminds me of reading Patton, his philosophy was... Just keep moving forward, never stop, never slow down.

"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." George W Patton

Companies/governments become caught up in "plan making", disagreement over the plan, revision, etc... and lack actions. The more folks involved the harder to reach a decision. It takes a strong leader to quickly develop a strategy and just keep moving forward.

Already we see fractures from the recent European meeting Sunday.
Moo
They are far more United than they were previously
 
  • #905
Already we see fractures from the recent European meeting Sunday.
Moo

Not seeing fractures. Only that Macron suggested a one-month ceasefire and Starmer doesn't think that will help.

It is called brainstorming. Trying to find a way through this mess.

I hope that so-called "fractures" are not what people want.

imo
 
  • #906
<modsnip: no source links>

But Ukraine is an important buffer between Russia and the West, Putin conquers Ukraine he wont stop there, Europe will be under threat

The west needs to work with him to stop Putin however loathesome Zelensky is
 
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  • #907
From the article.... And I'm totally agree with this statement.
The age of European overreliance on the United States in which we opt for the cosy life of the welfare state over economic growth and co-dependence over self-sufficiency is well and truly over.

It is time for the UK to follow the lead of Donald Trump and follow our eternal and perpetual interests.
I agree it is better for the Uk to bother about our interests and drop those whose main interests are our enemies. Honestly I wish we would at this point. For years we have been called names for being "close" to America and it isnt worth it.
 
  • #908
"Europe, as you know, gave much less money but they had security. It was in the form of a loan. They get their money back and we didn’t. "

This part is also untrue. imo
 
  • #909
Trump is delusional if he thinks that Zelenskyy signing this deal will protect Ukraine.

Exactly.

Without security guarantees, the deal heavily favors the U.S. and private companies. Ukraine would be offering access to its valuable resources—potentially one of its strongest economic assets—without any assurances.

The main benefit for Ukraine should be economic growth and investment, but without security, it’s a risky gamble. If Russia invades the mining sites, companies could simply pull out, leaving Ukraine with nothing but more occupied land.

This is why Zelenskyy is pushing for clear security guarantees—without them, Ukraine risks giving away its resources with no real protection in return.

IMO
 
  • #910

Zelenskyy knew before going to Washington that European nations said they would send troops to Ukraine if there's a ceasefire. The US backing would be from having US contractors working at the border extracting minerals which would be a big deterrent to Putin attacking again.

For some reason that wasn't good enough for Zelenskyy and he cause a big scene in the Oval Office instead of signing the deal and moving forward. Not a very smart move. JMO.
You realize of course that there were already Amercians working there and companies on the ground in Ukraine in 2014 when Russia invaded and annexed the Crimean Region of Ukraine and in 2022 (after signing that 2019 peace deal) when they further invaded into Donbask, Ukraine, right?

That did and does diddly squat to "deter" a dictatorship who's in the game to expand their territory at the expense of a sovereign nation's territory.

You know what does serve as a deterrance? Military might. Hard Power. Backed up and informed with and by Soft Power. Every nation has an Army; it's own or someone elses. There's a reason for that. IMO.
 
  • #911
  • #912
a dutch news platform did an interview with a former russian diplomat. he worked for the russian foreign ministry for 20 years and he was the only diplomat to publicly cut ties with putin after the invasian of ukraine.

it’s quite a long text but i think it’s an interesting perspective, so i pasted an english translation below




Russian ex-diplomat: Europe fails to impress, speak to Putin in gangster language

Russian defected UN diplomat Boris Bondarev has a hard head about European plans for Ukraine. From the beginning it has been "mainly words, words and words," he says in conversation with Nieuwsuur. "What is missing are deeds."

At the security summit in London on Sunday, European leaders came up with plans for security and peace in Ukraine. With France, the U.K. will also initiate a peace plan, an alternative to a deal between the U.S. and Russia.

But that, according to Bondarev, does not impress the Kremlin at all. The plans are not concrete enough. Europe remains too dependent on America, he believes. According to him, it only shows that Europe is not prepared for anything. "We are entering the fourth year of war and Europe has no vision. Europe has no plan. Europe has no strategy."

Bondarev, who worked for the Russian Foreign Ministry for 20 years, was the only Russian diplomat to publicly break with Moscow when Russia invaded Ukraine. As long as Vladimir Putin is in power, Kyiv has no serious negotiating partner, he says. "Every negotiator is an extension of Putin and his imperialist plans."

False bravery
The increase in defense budgets announced by several countries is having no effect now, according to former diplomat Bondarev. "It takes a while to build industrial facilities to produce weapons. Then it takes 10, 15 years before your armed forces have more weapons. But the war is henceforth."

All is not enough, Bondarev believes. He sharply criticizes the West. "Not enough arms supplies to Ukraine. Not enough aid. Not enough pressure on Russia. Not enough, not enough, not enough," he says. Fear of Russia underlies this, he believes. "Europe is afraid to do anything completely. Just like Donald Trump. Despite his false courage, he too is afraid of Russia."

Thereby - says the former diplomat - the Americans have little to offer Russia. "Trade with the U.S. has been quite insignificant compared to trade with Europe or with China. China gives Russia what it needs. Putin will never sacrifice that."

Sauer agrees somewhat with the ex-diplomat. "NATO chief Mark Rutte says he is in close contact with Trump. That he talks to him almost daily. That he is sure Trump wants peace. But all we see is the opposite: all we see is that Trump wants to do business with Russia."

When you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language.

If it turns out that Trump does not want to go along with European plans for Ukraine, Sauer says Europe will really have to step up to the plate. That's entirely possible, too, he says. "Money enough. There is 250 billion in Russian frozen assets in a Belgian account. That can go to Ukraine's defense industry, one of the best right now. We think we are not powerful enough, but Europe is really a giant bloc."

Therefore, Europe should also stop fixating on American support, Bondarev believes. "Russia is at war with Europe." He cites cyber attacks, sabotage of underwater cables, interference in elections and bribing European politicians as examples. "European leaders say: Putin is at war with us, but we are not at war with Putin. That sounds schizophrenic."

The basic rule of diplomacy, which Europe does not understand, according to the former diplomat, is: "If you talk to a gangster, who only understands the language of force, you have to speak the same language. European leaders think: negotiate, negotiate and negotiate and be polite. But Putin won't stop until he understands that his next move may be his last. That's when Europe declares nuclear war on him."

Sauer also thinks Putin has no intention of stopping the war at all. "In Putin's experience, things are moving in the right direction. He has a long breath. Even though he is destroying the Russian economy and driving a whole generation of young people to their deaths. Putin will just keep doing that."

Bondarev outlines the current situation one more time, using a Russian fable. "An elephant moves through the city and a small dog barks at him. The latter says to other dogs: look, I am brave, I am barking at the huge elephant. But the elephant didn't even notice the dog. Just like Putin," says Bondarev. "You can bark at him, he will smile and at the same time he will continue bombing Ukraine."
This should be so obvious to trump, which begs the question as to why he would compromise with Putin. Read carefully Trumps fiery exchange. Is it hard to imagine Putin saying these things to Trump? “The problem is I’ve empowered you (turning toward Zelenskyy) to be a tough guy, and I don’t think you’d be a tough guy without the United States."

Trump says Putin respects him due to the investigations of his first term​

Vance, restating a reporter’s question: “She is asking what if Russia breaks the ceasefire.”

Trump: “What, if anything? What if the bomb drops on your head right now? OK, what if they broke it? I don’t know, they broke it with Biden because Biden, they didn’t respect him. They didn’t respect Obama. They respect me. Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt ... All I can say is this. He might have broken deals with Obama and Bush, and he might have broken them with Biden. He did, maybe. Maybe he did. I don’t know what happened, but he didn’t break them with me. He wants to make a deal. I don’t know if you can make a deal.”


“The problem is I’ve empowered you (turning toward Zelenskyy) to be a tough guy, and I don’t think you’d be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave. But you’re either going to make a deal or we’re out. And if we’re out, you’ll fight it out. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty, but you’ll fight it out. But you don’t have the cards. But once we sign that deal, you’re in a much better position, but you’re not acting at all thankful. And that’s not a nice thing. I’ll be honest. That’s not a nice thing.

“All right, I think we’ve seen enough. What do you think? This is going to be great television. I will say that.”
 
  • #913
I agree it is better for the Uk to bother about our interests and drop those whose main interests are our enemies. Honestly I wish we would at this point. For years we have been called names for being "close" to America and it isnt worth it.
It certainly saved them money on defense spending. It was great to see the UK donating the $2 million in weapons.

I do believe this will bring the European countries closer together and much stronger as a unit.
Moo
 
  • #914
Wow, great article. Reminds me of reading Patton, his philosophy was... Just keep moving forward, never stop, never slow down.

"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." George W Patton

Companies/governments become caught up in "plan making", disagreement over the plan, revision, etc... and lack actions. The more folks involved the harder to reach a decision. It takes a strong leader to quickly develop a strategy and just keep moving forward.

Already we see fractures from the recent European meeting Sunday.
Moo
Are you suggesting the minerals deal is a "good plan"? Because I think George W. Patton had a different type plan , to take place, on the battlefield, violently executed .. NOW. Not a diversion into some one sided minerals deal.
 
  • #915
The other issue as I said earlier the Ukraines were promised help if they get the weapons up. Stupid move but the couldnt know how it would end. If I am honest I dont believe Trump can be neutral in these discussions
They gave up their nukes because, at that time, America was the ally that could be trusted to lve up to it's promises and International Agreements and Russia could not be trusted. Now neither can be. The trust has been broken. Times have changed.

If Ukraine could roll back the clock to 1994 and Budapest, I'm quite certain it would ... and I wouldn't blame them an iota.
 
  • #916
Wow, great article. Reminds me of reading Patton, his philosophy was... Just keep moving forward, never stop, never slow down.

"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." George W Patton

Companies/governments become caught up in "plan making", disagreement over the plan, revision, etc... and lack actions. The more folks involved the harder to reach a decision. It takes a strong leader to quickly develop a strategy and just keep moving forward.

Already we see fractures from the recent European meeting Sunday.
Moo
And don't forget Churchill "and we shall never surrender".

Certainly statesmen of their times. They were talking battlefields. Of the blood and guts type. Irony - IMO.
 
  • #917
It certainly saved them money on defense spending. It was great to see the UK donating the $2 million in weapons.

I do believe this will bring the European countries closer together and much stronger as a unit.
Moo
2 million in weapons? You do know Europe has paid as much as America on this war? and thats without the Ukraine home schemes we did here
 
  • #918
Are you suggesting the minerals deal is a "good plan"? Because I think George W. Patton had a different type plan , to take place, on the battlefield, violently executed .. NOW. Not a diversion into some one sided minerals deal.
I was referencing the opinion in the article, discussing "plans". George Patton was a great military leader. His plan was simple keep moving forward. Great inspiring book, PATTON. Moo

At the London security summit, European leaders on Sunday presented plans for security and peace in Ukraine. With France, the United Kingdom will also initiate a peace plan, an alternative to a deal between the US and Russia.

But according to Bondarev, that doesn't impress the Kremlin at all. The plans are not concrete enough. Europe remains too dependent on America, he thinks. According to him, it only shows that Europe is not prepared for anything. "We are entering the fourth year of the war and Europe has no vision. Europe has no plan. Europe has no strategy."
 
  • #919
<modsnip: no source links>

But Ukraine is an important buffer between Russia and the West, Putin conquers Ukraine he wont stop there, Europe will be under threat

The west needs to work with him to stop Putin however loathesome Zelensky is
Apparently the Bughatti thing is not true:
 
  • #920
It certainly saved them money on defense spending. It was great to see the UK donating the $2 million in weapons.

I do believe this will bring the European countries closer together and much stronger as a unit.
Moo
I'm unsure how to interpret this post?

Britain always meets it's NATO spending requirements (exceeds them actually).

Or are you talking about "total dollars spent" vice GDP? If "total dollars spent", it's important to realize that Britain has a population of 69 million compared to the US' 350 million.

Over and above the EU numbers (Britain is not part of the EU), Britain has also contributed billions directly to Ukraine and billions to the World Bank as security guarantees to Ukrainian loans.
 
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