Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Stella123]

Thanks. No wonder I didn't know what it meant.

I'm not too worried about that persons opinion. Anymore than the mayor of Sacramento making a statement like that. JMO.

The Scottish National Party are strongly nationalistic about Scotland - Scotland does have some separate governmental systems to the Uk - they (arguably) have a much better education system than the Uk. It may be a small country but they have a voice in the Uk parliament.

 

[Simply Southern]

Russia celebrates US foreign policy that now ‘coincides’ with Moscow’s worldview

Moscow hopes to take advantage of a growing rift between the U.S. and Ukraine, and Europe more broadly.

www.politico.eu

The Kremlin on Sunday cheered the shift in U.S. foreign policy under President Donald Trump, saying the American view now “largely coincides” with Russia’s take on geopolitics.

Trump has upended U.S. policy on Ukraine in recent weeks and sought a more conciliatory approach to Russian President Vladimir Putin, echoing Moscow’s talking points and recently accusing Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy of obstructing efforts to resolve the conflict started by Putin’s unprovoked invasion. In contrast, former U.S. President Joe Biden led efforts to support Kyiv against the Russian forces attacking Ukraine.

“The new [U.S.] administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This largely coincides with our vision,” Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said on Sunday in a video published on Telegram.

Putin just as bad a Zelenskyy spinning messages to the media. The US has not shifted their policy on Russia. President Trump campaigned on several promises, one was to and our financial responsibility to a unwinnable war. Zelensky created the narrative we are siding with Russia. That played right in to Putin's hands. Zelenskyy not the brightest bulb in the box. I'm not sure he thinks things through, but rather lives in the moment.
Moo

 

[Stella123]

Russian arrogance, despite (or maybe due to) being well aware of Europe uniting. "We are the invaders and we are not going to stop"

It's typical Russian manipulation IMO. A response to the failed treaty between Zelensky and the US, intended to manipulate Trump against Valensky, so Trump can say - look it's Zelensky's fault - I'd been having good talks with Putin and Zelensky publicly criticised Putin in the US and now look what's happened ..... etc etc JMO MOO

 

[Jade]

Many Americans including myself, feel this is extremely disrespectful behavior. They even passed dress code regulations in our house of Congress.

I understand he wants to wear a military uniform, but he is not on the battlefield. He's meeting the President of the United States, representing his country, on the world stage and the only person in the room that dress down. He certainly didn't look like a president, more like a laborer. I would never show up to business meeting in casual attire. But again, it's all about what Zelenskyy wants and not others. It's all about himself.
Moo

Perfectly suitable attire for a President of a war torn country.

What does the members of Congress in session dress code have to do with the WH meeting with foreign nations?

Will the Saudis have simular expections and reprimand regarding wearing of the western style suits on the 20th in their WH visit?

You are familiar with the ongoing atrocities from the aggressors against the vulnerable and hospitals?

The heartbroken displaced sheltering in America.

Zellenskyy has on his work clothes for all of them.

As for Vance his comments on the kind of regard he has had for Trump are well known and on display disrespecting Trump's seniority making him look weaker.

Zellenskyy knew what he was in for Vance has made it very clear.

Trump supporters have ceded their ability to take humbrage about decorum and attire, imo.

See: Elon Musk weilding unfettered the most powerful chainsaw in modern history, from the Oval Office, on camera, in his daily wear t-shirt, jeans and ball cap inside.

All imo

 

[Sundog]

He had an interpreter sitting directly behind him supplied by the White House. Moo, but I highly suspect the interpreter heard him and communicated to staff. I don't think the president or any of the cabinet members are fluent in his language.

Yeah he got pretty hot, he continued to interrupt the president and speak over him. He's underdressed, lacks respect, rules of decorum and etiquette. He thought he could bully his way with Trump by playing to the media for military support. It backfire, he walks away with nothing. He's put the European nations on the spot, and gave Putin much encouragement to continue to overthrow his government. He's a showman.
Moo

He could learn a lot by remembering how Netanyahu showed his diplomacy when he had to meet with Biden and his people and listen to their lack of support for Israel. Netanyahu got the Biden slap down but knew how to handle it and what it means to work with a powerful ally that he needed.

 

[Sundog]

During their meeting, Starmer presented Trump with a hand written invitation from the King for a state visit. That will not be withdrawn.

Yes, I know that. So the SNP guy is just talking nonsense then.

 

[MrsWatson]

Rolling coverage from The Guardian.

UK and France to work with Ukraine on peace plan, Starmer says, as European leaders arrive for defence summit – live

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy to join European, Canadian and Turkish leaders for summit

www.theguardian.com

 

[Cryptic]

Why has Putin stolen 4000 children?

I imagine that question can be answered many different ways:

Ukrainian Side: Russians are forcibly removing Ukrainian children from their homes to culturally "Russify" them into self identifying as Russians.

Russian Side: There are millions of Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine who identify as Russians. In these cases, their parents voluntarily sent the children to Russia as a means of re-connecting with their Russian roots.

The truth could be a blurry mix: Parents are pressured, but not truly forced to send their children to Russia. Once there, Russians provide say, educational / vocational, training and recreational fun. But.... also mix in an awful lot of Russian cultural identity classes and activities.

As a side note, it is a war crime by UN definitions to forcibly remove children from their homes. It is also a war crime to impose new cultural, ethnic, or national identities on children with out their parent's consent.

 

[Simply Southern]

Even if that were true (though I completely disagree), that is not the meaning of failure to thrive.

It's interesting how one meeting can have such widely different interpretations. I saw the "leader of the free world" engage in a rude, muscle-flexing, tantrum-throwing, nonsensical interaction. It was essentially akin to telling an abuse or DV victim to "forgive and forget, return to your abuser and just do what he/she says next time so this doesn't happen." And then abusing the victim yourself when that advice is spat upon.

This thing was bungled because it was handled very poorly by all objective standards, IMO. I've seen schoolyard bullies with better diplomacy skills.

MOO.

I saw in a different light. I saw our great president trying to reason for peace. It's an unwinnable war, unless Zelenskyy can overthrow the Russian government. Putin does not back down, he has more military support, can afford to pay for soldiers from other countries to fight, doesn't care how many of his troops are slaughtered, and the power of the almighty nuclear weapon.

I don't want to see our troops in Ukraine. I personally lost many during Afghanistan, many returned maimed, and with PTSD. It changes a family forever.
The European countries don't want to send in ground troops. France and the UK have committed a small amount. I haven't seen any other country offer up any.

This deal was on again off again everyday last week. His Parliament voted and approved, announced on Twitter and the media. So did he. The US was going to send someone to sign the agreement. Zelenskyy ask the president of France to contact Trump on Friday and ask for an invite and a public presentation. I knew then it was a mistake and a setup my Zelenskyy. Trump met UK and France in person last week and they held several press conferences. Trump has repeatedly say it we will not send in military support. If you said it once he said it a hundred times, no security agreement from the US. Zelenskyy thought he badger Trump into committing in front of the press. He lost.

Moo...

 

[Stella123]

Wed 26 Feb 2025 18.41 GMT

Donald Trump has announced that Volodymyr Zelenskyy will visit the White House on Friday to sign a rare earth minerals deal, but the US will not provide significant security guarantees to Ukraine as part of the agreement.

The conclusion of a deal, which Trump has claimed would allow the US to recoup hundreds of billions of dollars it spent on military aid to Kyiv, followed days of intense negotiations in which Zelenskyy said he wanted the US to guarantee Ukraine’s security against the ongoing Russian invasion.

Uncertainty remains over the specifics of the agreement, which would establish a joint fund between the US and Ukraine that would receive revenues from the mining of rare earth metals and other precious minerals in Ukraine, as well as some oil and gas revenues.

Trump announced during a cabinet meeting on Wednesday that he could confirm that Zelenskyy would arrive in Washington on Friday to sign the deal, calling it a “very big agreement that will be on rare earth and other things”.

Zelenskyy had resisted pressure from the US to sign a draft of the deal at the Munich Security Conference earlier this month that would have established a joint fund 100% owned by the US, according to media reports. “I will not sign what 10 generations of Ukrainians will have to pay back,” he said at a news conference on Sunday.

Media reports suggested the draft contained only vague language on security guarantees.

Zelenskyy described the deal as “preliminary”, adding that it was “just a start, a framework, it can be a big success”.

The Ukrainian leader said that if he visited the White House on Friday, he would be “very direct” in asking whether the US would continue supporting Ukraine or not. “If we don’t get security guarantees, we won’t have a ceasefire, nothing will work, nothing,” he said.

Trump says no significant security guarantees in Ukraine minerals deal

President says Volodymyr Zelenskyy will visit White House to sign ‘very big agreement’, but details remain unclear

www.theguardian.com

This is what I meant earlier. The deal wasn't agreed. Trump wanted him to sign the deal without security guarantees. Zelensky went anyway, to negotiate/finalise the deal but was not in agreement with it without security guarantees.

 

[CaMan60]

I'm looking at this from the outside, as a foreigner, but my impression is that pro-Trump people don't really think much about what's going on between Russia and Ukraine.

What,s going on between Russia and Ukraine is Written on The Wiki website.
This war is more than a border dispute its become a international hot spot with tensions on both sides. So to end it we need to turn down the heat and step back.
The U.S. invited One side to talk peace after Three years of disputing.
But Zelenskyy went right back to saying our country has been invaded and we can,t except it. Now is the time for peace talks. Both sides want things but
lets not keep bringing up the past.
And Otto you made some good points on our current situation in america.

 

[otto]

Putin just as bad a Zelenskyy spinning messages media. The US has not shifted their policy on Russia. President Trump campaigned on several promises, one was to and our financial responsibility to a unwinnable war. Zelensky created the narrative we are siding with Russia. That played right in to Putin's hands. Zelenskyy not the brightest bulb in the box. I'm not sure he thinks things through, but rather lives in the moment.
Moo

Zelenskyy manipulated Canadians into believing that the USA is aligned with Russia? What a strange idea. Perhaps Zelenskyy convinced Canadians that the USA is going to war against Canada as well?

Everyone around the world who watched Trump's staged live TV Entertainment Ambush saw the same thing. The only people who saw something different are Trump supporters.

"German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier criticized Trump for his behaviour during the meeting with Zelenskyy at the White House in unusually sharp terms.

"Diplomacy fails when negotiating partners are humiliated in front of the whole world," Steinmeier told dpa, the German news agency, during a flight to Uruguay. "The scene in the White House yesterday took my breath away. I would never have believed that we would one day have to protect Ukraine from the U.S.A."
...

During the meeting, Zelenskyy attempted to discuss the minerals agreement but Trump repeatedly talked over him, and U.S. Vice-President J.D. Vance reprimanded him for not being grateful enough for the U.S. support Ukraine has already received."​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-zelenskyy-white-house-talks-reaction-1.7472368

 

[Sarahlou]

I'm looking at this from the outside, as a foreigner, but my impression is that pro-Trump people don't really think much about what's going on between Russia and Ukraine. They voted for Trump, and they are doubling down on their choice regardless of what he says or does.

In terms of big picture and how this evolved, my impression is that Trump is using a strategy previously used by Hitler. That is, he needed to unify people to follow and support him regardless of what he did. What better way to achieve this than to convince people that they are treated unfairly, cheated, and victimized by someone. Trump started by announcing that immigrants are criminals and murderers. They are the "bad guy" that is victimizing the USA people. Hitler named Jewish people as the "bad guy" After he was elected, Trump expanded that 'bad guy' image to include Panama (they stole the canal), Denmark (won't sell Greenland), Canada (replace "trade deficit" with "subsidy"), the EU (formed to harm the USA), and Ukraine (grifting for war supplies). Each of these "bad guys" are, according to Trump: so mean, so unfair, so nasty to Trump's followers (victims).

People who elected Trump were gradually convinced, through daily repetition of false statements from Trump, that they are victims of immigrants, Canadians, Ukrainian and many other countries. Today, Trump's supporters are unified in their belief that they are victims who are justified in lashing out at all those people/countries that Trump identified as harming the USA. The victim mentality is so deeply rooted that Trump and his followers tell Canadians that they should not retaliate when Trump enacts Economic War against Canada on Tuesday. They believe that Trump is justified in declaring war, that Canadians have harmed the USA, and that any reaction is an invitation to escalate the war. They believe that Canada should do what Trump says because, according to them, Canada is stealing from the USA. They do not accept that Trump has no authority in sovereign countries like Ukraine, Greenland, Canada, etc., or that Trump is concocting facts.

Similarly with Ukraine, Trump's followers/victims look at the $6.6 billion spent (no strings attached) by the USA and the $6 billion spent by the EU (to protect democracy), and conclude that Ukraine is cheating the USA. They watched Vance and Trump deteriorate to infantile shouting-match tantrums with Zelenskyy and then blame Zelenskyy (echoing Russia) - with the usual name-calling, insults and declarations that the man who had the tantrum was justified since, in their view, Trump is the victim defending a country full of victims. Trump's followers/victims believe that Ukraine is a 'cheat' that deserves mass murder from Russian troops because they accepted USA money to defend democracy.

You've read them like a book.
Very well explained.

 

[otto]

What,s going on between Russia and Ukraine is Written on The Wiki website.
This war is more than a border dispute its become a international hot spot with tensions on both sides. So to end it we need to turn down the heat and step back.
The U.S. invited One side to talk peace after Three years of disputing.
But Zelenskyy went right back to saying our country has been invaded and we can,t except it. Now is the time for peace talks. Both sides want things but
lets not keep bringing up the past.
And Otto you made some good points on our current situation in america.

I found this fully referenced article helpful in understanding why Ukraine cannot agree to a ceasefire, why Russia will not negotiate, and why the only option is to protect Ukraine borders.

Why Ukraine Shouldn’t Negotiate with Putin | Journal of Democracy

Many pundits cry for a negotiated settlement to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. But they misunderstand Vladimir Putin’s motives. The only just end to the war will be in the trenches…

www.journalofdemocracy.org

 

[Stella123]

WHOA !!!

Did Zelensky call JD Vance a 'b**** f***' under breath at Oval Office?

Viewers of the televised 45-minute dispute - with US President Donald Trump at the centre - believe he muttered the insult during the explosive White House clash.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Did Zelensky call JD Vance a 'b**** *advertiser censored**' under his breath during Oval Office attack from Trump's VP?

Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky has sparked suggestions he branded US Vice-President JD Vance a 'b****' during their explosive White House row.

Viewers of the televised 45-minute dispute - with US President Donald Trump at the centre - believe he muttered the insult under his breath.

Mr Zelensky is said to have uttered 'Suka, blyat' in response to Mr Vance criticising him for an alleged lack of respect, during Friday evening's confrontation.
....
The slang phrase, also spelled as 'cyka', is variously said to translate in English as 'son of a b****', 'b**** *advertiser censored**', '*advertiser censored**ing hell' or '*advertiser censored** you, b****'.

The Ukrainian president was seen crossing his arms in dismay as both Mr Trump and Mr Vance laid into him, before Mr Zelensky was sent on his way from the Washington DC summit sooner than scheduled.

It's difficult to know if this is true or not as there are many manipulated videos trawling the internet - including one that is manipulated to look realistic - in which Zelensky punches trump.

 

[acutename]

Even if that were true (though I completely disagree), that is not the meaning of failure to thrive.

It's interesting how one meeting can have such widely different interpretations. I saw the "leader of the free world" engage in a rude, muscle-flexing, tantrum-throwing, nonsensical interaction. It was essentially akin to telling an abuse or DV victim to "forgive and forget, return to your abuser and just do what he/she says next time so this doesn't happen." And then abusing the victim yourself when that advice is spat upon.

This thing was bungled because it was handled very poorly by all objective standards, IMO. I've seen schoolyard bullies with better diplomacy skills.

MOO.

why was the meeting in front of the press?

 

[otto]

It's difficult to know if this is true or not as there are many manipulated videos trawling the internet - including one that is manipulated to look realistic - in which Zelensky punches trump.

Wild guess, but I suppose this false information originates on Musk's site: twitter?

 

[Stella123]

Many Americans including myself, feel this is extremely disrespectful behavior. They even passed dress code regulations in our house of Congress.

I understand he wants to wear a military uniform, but he is not on the battlefield. He's meeting the President of the United States, representing his country, on the world stage and the only person in the room that dress down. He certainly didn't look like a president, more like a laborer. I would never show up to business meeting in casual attire. But again, it's all about what Zelenskyy wants and not others. It's all about himself.
Moo

With respect, I don't agree. If his war-time garb is acceptable to the King of England and every other European head of state, why shouldn't it be good enough for the US White House - which after all, is just a government building, not the centre of the Universe. These are culture clashes and expectations, and the reporter who asked that question - why wasn't Zelensky wearing a suit - was crass and out of order and should have been put in his place immediately by Trump. And he wasn't put in his place.

This isn't a game. There are examples and photos earlier, of Winston Churchill attending the White House in war time garb also (and not a smart uniform, but day to day war-time wear).

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Putin just as bad a Zelenskyy spinning messages to the media. The US has not shifted their policy on Russia. President Trump campaigned on several promises, one was to and our financial responsibility to a unwinnable war. Zelensky created the narrative we are siding with Russia. That played right in to Putin's hands. Zelenskyy not the brightest bulb in the box. I'm not sure he thinks things through, but rather lives in the moment.
Moo

Sounds like someone else we know....

 

[otto]

why was the meeting in front of the press?

Because Trump and Vance wanted to humiliate a foreign leader.