Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[PommyMommy]

German CDU leader Merz claims Trump-Zelensky clash was "manufactured" by the American side

He sees this as part of a pattern following US delegation's confrontational stance at Munich Security Conference.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896654213306012026

Lech Wałęsa, Solidarity leaders demand US honor Budapest Memorandum

Polish freedom movement veterans remind Trump that the USA committed to defend Ukraine’s borders in exchange for its nuclear disarmament, refraining from economic coercion

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896712227496858057

US President Trump to announce future US-Ukraine rare earth metals deal during tomorrow's address to joint session of Congress

At White House briefing on 3 March, Trump dismissed rumors that the deal collapsed after Trump-Zelenskyy clash in the Oval Office, stating US wants swift end to Ukraine war rather than years of prolonged fighting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896657622209564916

 

[Simply Southern]

Israel is not a member of NATO. It has fostered a close relationship with NATO but it is not a member.

You are correct. I should have double check for before I posted it. I was sure they were. Well that explains why we're not in the war with Hamas. Thank you. I tried to correct but it's too late.
Moo

 

[Simply Southern]

Not sure thats the way it works tbh. I assume that Trump will still do negotiations. Not sure what Z is meant to do but I do know that if I was him I would not go to the White house without other leaders.

I'm not sure the deal is still available. I know the US signed a deal today Taiwan. They have rare minerals.

 

[Snoopster]

German CDU leader Merz claims Trump-Zelensky clash was "manufactured" by the American side

He sees this as part of a pattern following US delegation's confrontational stance at Munich Security Conference.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896654213306012026

Lech Wałęsa, Solidarity leaders demand US honor Budapest Memorandum

Polish freedom movement veterans remind Trump that the USA committed to defend Ukraine’s borders in exchange for its nuclear disarmament, refraining from economic coercion

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896712227496858057

US President Trump to announce future US-Ukraine rare earth metals deal during tomorrow's address to joint session of Congress

At White House briefing on 3 March, Trump dismissed rumors that the deal collapsed after Trump-Zelenskyy clash in the Oval Office, stating US wants swift end to Ukraine war rather than years of prolonged fighting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896657622209564916

Yup. The rest of the democratic world agrees.
They stand with the victim, not the abuser.

And Trump is busy announcing minerals deals with Taiwan (no doubt blackmailing them so that China won't invade), and economically blackmailing Canada in hopes that they will become the 51st state so that they can take Canada's natural resources.

It's not about caring about democracies. It's just plain greed. What happened to being a guiding light?
(Sorry that I'm frustrated, but I'm disappointed with the USA, who used to be a good friend. I have many wonderful American friends, but your government doesn't want us to be allies. There's nothing that I said here that isn't true.)

 

[Simply Southern]

Trump isn’t just a businessman—he’s the president, and his actions have consequences beyond “good cop, bad cop” games. Ukraine is fighting for its survival, not negotiating a business deal. And let’s be real—Trump’s relationship with Putin isn’t just about past business ties. He has consistently shown deference to Putin, from questioning NATO’s relevance to casting doubt on U.S. intelligence about Russian interference.

Saying “the killing’s got to stop” without addressing who started it or how to actually end it in a just way ignores reality. Peace isn’t forcing Ukraine to concede its land and sovereignty to a dictator, that’s surrender.

IMO

Respectfully...
The point I was making is Trump did business in Russia prior to this war. Is negotiated what time before, they know each other. It was only in 2022 sanctions were placed on Russia and the US companies packed up and left. McDonald's Subway the banks, many expensive clothing and jewelry businesses. Many US companies were thriving in Russia prior to the Ukraine invasion of 2022.

Trump questioned our NATO membership when he was president in 2016. This has no relationship to Ukraine. In 2016 Trump questioned whu we pay a larger percentage than other countries.

Zelensky came to the US, trying to broker the deal, shortly after the election. After France turned him down. I'm betting he's offered it to many and it's not public.

Trump didn't go looking for the deal. Zelensky solicited Trump in Florida before he was even sworn in. I guess he knew Biden wouldn't sign it. Who knows maybe he'd offered it to Biden or Harris. He was in the US in October, visiting an ammunition plant.

The deals are relevant now. He said no and he's working with the European countries for security.

Moo ...

 

[Snoopster]

Respectfully...
Zelensky came to the US, trying to broker the deal, shortly after the election. After France turned him down. I'm betting he's offered it to many and it's not public.

Trump didn't go looking for the deal. Zelensky solicited Trump in Florida before he was even sworn in. I guess he knew Biden wouldn't sign it. Who knows maybe he'd offered it to Biden or Harris. He was in the US in October, visiting an ammunition plant.

The deals are relevant now. He said no and he's working with the European countries for security.

Mpp

These are all your speculations.
But all I know is that if a democratic nation under stress came asking for help, I'd at least listen to them. I can then decide to help or not. But Zelensky was treated like dirt by Trump and gang, while Z was simply fighting for his nation all while knowing that Trump was siding with Putin (the abuser).
They allowed TASS in the room. (Their buddies?)

 

[Simply Southern]

RSBM,

Yes other nations spend additional monies. Some of those nations counts those expenditures towards their NATO GDP totals and some do not. The USofA does include those expenditures towards it's NATO GDP.

In Canada, for example, our policing costs, CBSA and Coast Guard costs are not counted towards our NATO GDP as we do not consider them hard-military defence costs. Nor do we count ammunition and gun industry sales to private citizens towards 'defence costs'. Perhaps we should start counting them.

What NATO actually needs if one wants to actually compare apples to apples is to decide upon a standardized format of what does/does not count as an expenditure counting as "NATO GDP Spending".

IMO.

He received millions in direct aid from USAID and DOD. NATO funding is separate from the other aid we've supplied.

It doesn't matter how you calculate it. The US has sent more dollars than any other single country. And you can add up all the European countries and it's slightly more but that's 27 countries versus one.

The war has to end. Souls are dying everyday. Land and minerals is not worth a human life. Some country's value life more than others. Take Israel for example, they are willing to trade a thousand prisoners for a human corpse. They value life and death for all their citizens.

We are not going to put our troops and harms way. We value life.
Moo...

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Yup. The rest of the democratic world agrees.
They stand with the victim, not the abuser.

And Trump is busy announcing minerals deals with Taiwan (no doubt blackmailing them so that China won't invade), and economically blackmailing Canada in hopes that they will become the 51st state so that they can take Canada's natural resources.

It's not about caring about democracies. It's just plain greed. What happened to being a guiding light?
(Sorry that I'm frustrated, but I'm disappointed with the USA, who used to be a good friend. I have many wonderful American friends, but your government doesn't want us to be allies. There's nothing that I said here that isn't true.)

What are you talking about? Trump blackmailing so China won’t invade and mineral deals?
Taiwan is investing in the US and I think they are going to open AI chip factories and create jobs here. imo

 

[Vern]

Trump is not aligned with Putin. Do they have a relationship? Yes
...

RSBM,

Given the other developments today:

Hegseth halts cyber operations against Russia, adding to an ugly pattern

and the previous "de-activation" (is that what Musk is calling it??) of USAID, I'll just copy & paste a response to a query someone asked me about the top item and its potential impacts based upon my own strategic level work experience:

Combine this with the pillage & plunder of USAID. The thing with USAID (Soft Power) is that the true issue is that a lot of black things are baked into their budgets; USAID pays for a lot of Intelligence networks for instance. They are were the ears on the ground around the world so to speak. They are also no more.

The world has now offically become a much scarier place - especially so if you happen to live in a democracy.

And, that means America and Americans too are at greater risk; it's FVEY allies and (former??) NATO allies will now be much more averse to sharing intelligence with it.

Sad times.

So suffice to say, the signs are there that 47 is clearly aligning with Putin and ergo Russia. IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

Thing is if Russia is not stopped..all of Europe can be at risk so personally I would not be removed from it. Zelensky did not invade another country...and his men did not rape and kill thousands of young girls and women the last year or so. He did not steal God knows how many kids either. It isnt about T unless you count the part that he is potentially enabling Putin to take over more countries

Why are you pressuring the US and not other counties? I agree it's horrible, women raped, kids kidnapped, soul dying everyday. Trump's only been in office since January 20th. Why is it now his responsibility? European countries and our previous administration have been dealing with this for 2 years. Why didn't I fix it, send in those troops?

Trump's not enabling Putin. Putin started this under the Biden administration. Putin did not invade during the Trump 2016. Why I didn't Biden fix it? Why didn't Biden sent in troops? He had two years to fix this.

The United States offered an economic partnership, our president offered to try to be a mediator for peace agreement. Zelensky did not want either. Zelensky said no to a peace agreement and no to the economic agreement.

Trump doesn't play games. I think he's moved on from this.

Moo

 

[Snoopster]

Respectfully...
The point I was making is Trump did business in Russia prior to this war. Is negotiated what time before, they know each other. It was only in 2022 sanctions were placed on Russia and the US companies packed up and left. McDonald's Subway the banks, many expensive clothing and jewelry businesses. Many US companies were thriving in Russia prior to the Ukraine invasion of 2022.

Trump questioned our NATO membership when he was president in 2016. This has no relationship to Ukraine. In 2016 Trump questioned whu we pay a larger percentage than other countries.

Zelensky came to the US, trying to broker the deal, shortly after the election. After France turned him down. I'm betting he's offered it to many and it's not public.

Trump didn't go looking for the deal. Zelensky solicited Trump in Florida before he was even sworn in. I guess he knew Biden wouldn't sign it. Who knows maybe he'd offered it to Biden or Harris. He was in the US in October, visiting an ammunition plant.

The deals are relevant now. He said no and he's working with the European countries for security.

Moo ...

Just to be clear, while I disagree with most of your points, I agree with your point that the US (not just Trump) has questioned whether all countries are paying their fair share to NATO. Sometimes that stat is distorted when some people say, "why is the US paying more money that any other country in NATO?" Well they are paying more because every country is supposed to pay their proportional share based on population and economy. You can't expect a country like Portugal to pay the same amount as the US, when they have a much smaller population. BUT it is reasonable to pay a similar proportion as to population or GDP. Some countries have paid more than their fair share and some countries have paid less.
I hope that all countries pay their fair share. We all owe that to fellow democracies.

Having said that, Trump distorts many of the stats on the world economy and trade. He said that Canada was a major source of fentanyl in the US, when in fact in represented only 0.4% of fentanyl seized in the US last year (you said you were a data nerd so feel free to confirm those stats, as I did). In contrast, much larger volumes of drugs (and illegal arms that kill people) illegally cross the border from US into Canada. Trump is playing the fake blame game.
And he has convinced many Americans that they 'are being taken'. He is preying on their gullibility and trying to create outrage about various 'enemies'. He is trying to isolate the USA from the rest of the democratic world. You have to ask who would benefit from that? Well, Putin would. JMO on that last point only. The rest of it I stand by based on stats.

 

[Sundog]

What are you talking about? Trump blackmailing so China won’t invade and mineral deals?
Taiwan is investing in the US and I think they are going to open AI chip factories and create jobs here. imo

Yes, it is a Taiwanese company that will be making a major investment in the U.S. with a number of chip factories in the U.S.

 

[Sundog]

Why are you pressuring the US and not other counties? I agree it's horrible, women raped, kids kidnapped, soul dying everyday. Trump's only been in office since January 20th. Why is it now his responsibility? European countries and our previous administration have been dealing with this for 2 years. Why didn't I fix it, send in those troops?

Trump's not enabling Putin. Putin started this under the Biden administration. Putin did not invade during the Trump 2016. Why I didn't Biden fix it? WhyW didn't Biden sent in troops? He had two years to fix this.

The United States offered an economic partnership, our president offered to try to be a mediator for peace agreement. Zelensky did not want either. Zelensky said no to a peace agreement and no to the economic agreement.

Trump doesn't play games. I think he's moved on from this.

Moo

Well said.

 

[Snoopster]

Why are you pressuring the US and not other counties? I agree it's horrible, women raped, kids kidnapped, soul dying everyday. Trump's only been in office since January 20th. Why is it now his responsibility? European countries and our previous administration have been dealing with this for 2 years. Why didn't I fix it, send in those troops?

Trump's not enabling Putin. Putin started this under the Biden administration. Putin did not invade during the Trump 2016. Why I didn't Biden fix it? Why didn't Biden sent in troops? He had two years to fix this.

The United States offered an economic partnership, our president offered to try to be a mediator for peace agreement. Zelensky did not want either. Zelensky said no to a peace agreement and no to the economic agreement.

Trump doesn't play games. I think he's moved on from this.

Moo

Regarding your first sentence...
Other countries have stood by Ukraine and not sold out to Russia. It's the US that voted with Russia at the UN. It's the US that has blamed Ukraine for being a victim. It's not about whether the US will give further support, it's about how they treated Zelensky and Ukraine and how they me with Russia to decide the future of the invaded country!
No other democratic nation has done that. No other democratic nation has sided with the invader of a sovereign nation. Something that the USA used to say they stood for. It's clear that the current US government doesn't stand for democracy anymore. It's got nothing to do with the USA saying they won't provide more money. It's about switching sides.

 

[PommyMommy]

In the beginning...

There are 157 posts in CNN's first blog, so this is just the tip of the iceberg, really.

FEB 23, 2022

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

1:02 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

Pentagon says it believes "additional Russian military forces are moving into" Donetsk and Luhansk regions​

The Pentagon believes that “additional Russian military forces are moving into” the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine, press secretary John Kirby said during an on-camera briefing at the Pentagon on Wednesday.

Russian President Vladimir Putin declared the Donetsk and Luhansk separatist regions of Ukraine as independent states on Monday.

The move was met with widespread condemnation from NATO countries and the US.

3:08 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

Ukraine president says he tried to call Russian President Vladimir Putin​

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky says he tried to call Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday but was unsuccessful, he said in an address posted on his official Facebook account in the early hours of Thursday local time.

“Today I initiated a telephone conversation with the President of the Russian Federation. Silence. Although there should be silence in the Donbas,” Zelensky said.

7:06 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

BREAKING: Putin announces a "special military operation" in Donbas​

Russian President Vladimir Putin says his troops will take action in the separatist-held region of Ukraine he declared independent this week.

7:30 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

CNN team reports explosions near Ukrainian capital​

The CNN team on the ground is hearing several loud explosions near Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine.

7:34 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

Biden condemns Russia's "unprovoked and unjustified attack on Ukraine"​

“The prayers of the entire world are with the people of Ukraine tonight as they suffer an unprovoked and unjustified attack by Russian military forces. President Putin has chosen a premeditated war that will bring a catastrophic loss of life and human suffering. Russia alone is responsible for the death and destruction this attack will bring, and the United States and its Allies and partners will respond in a united and decisive way. The world will hold Russia accountable.” - President Biden

8:39 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

Putin threatens "those who may be tempted to intervene" in Russia's military action​

“Now a few important, very important words for those who may be tempted to intervene in ongoing events from the outside,” Putin said. “Whoever tries to interfere with us, and even more so to create threats to our country, to our people, should know that Russia’s response will be immediate and will lead you to such consequences as you have never experienced in your history. We are ready for any development of events. All necessary decisions in this regard have been made. I hope that I will be heard.” - Vladimir Putin

8:46 p.m. PST, February 23, 2022

Trump calls Russian military operation "a very sad thing for the world" a day after calling Putin a "genius"​

“Well, this is something that should have never happened. This would not have happened during my administration,” Trump said. “It wouldn’t have taken place and it wouldn’t have taken place right now.”
“And it’s a very sad thing for the world, for the country and it’s certainly very sad for a lot of people that are going to be needlessly killed,” he added.

The former President’s comments come a day after he hailed Russian President Vladimir Putin’s recognition of the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk, in eastern Ukraine, as an act of “genius.”

 

[Vern]

Regarding your first sentence...
Other countries have stood by Ukraine and not sold out to Russia. It's the US that voted with Russia at the UN. It's the US that has blamed Ukraine for being a victim. It's not about whether the US will give further support, it's about how they treated Zelensky and Ukraine and how they me with Russia to decide the future of the invaded country!
No other democratic nation has done that. No other democratic nation has sided with the invader of a sovereign nation. Something that the USA used to say they stood for. It's clear that the current US government doesn't stand for democracy anymore. It's got nothing to do with the USA saying they won't provide more money. It's about switching sides.

Well said!!

 

[branmuffin]

Trump is not aligned with Putin. Do they have a relationship? Yes

It was not too long ago, many US companies operated in the Russia. McDonald's, Subway, US Banks, retail stores. Trump was in business, of course he tried to put a hotel there in 2008. He was a potential investor. He had a business relationship, just like the CEOs of McDonald's and Subway and all the other companies that were located in Russia had a relationship with Putin. Does that mean that anybody that's ever done business with Russia is on their side?

Trump's playing good cop bad cop, he's going to try to get a peace deal, or at least was. Looks like Europe's going to take that over.

180 military souls were lost last night in Ukraine. The killing's got to stop.
Moo

Business projects of Donald Trump in Russia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a list of all the companies, starting with the ones that are still doing business IN Russia, as we speak, down to those that completely closed operations and hotfooted it outta there a couple of years ago. It's a long list.

Over 1,000 Companies Have Curtailed Operations in Russia—But Some Remain

som.yale.edu

Here's another article related to the same situation but from the reality of the tentatively imminent collapse of the Russian economy based on the experiences of CEOs of doing business in Russia. Any other president would see the landscape and realize that Russia really isn't in a position to negotiate terms, that the ball should be and is in both Ukraine's and the US's court, yet Trump because he fosters resentment when he feels he's been disrespected will screw the world with his plan.

Over 1,000 Companies Have Curtailed Operations in Russia—But Some Remain

som.yale.edu

What CEOs Know about Putin that Stumps Donald Trump

Putin is desperate for U.S. businesses to return to stave off his economic collapse, write Jeffrey Sonnenfeld and Steven Tian

time.com

 

[SouthAussie]

What are you talking about? Trump blackmailing so China won’t invade and mineral deals?
Taiwan is investing in the US and I think they are going to open AI chip factories and create jobs here. imo

What I think Taiwan is actually doing is (understandably) trying to keep its independence. Last week the US removed "we do not support Taiwan independence" from its govt fact sheet, this week it is business-dealing with Taiwan. China is peed off.


"We urge the U.S. to ... stop emboldening and supporting Taiwan independence and avoid further damaging China-U.S. relations and the peace and stability of the Taiwan Strait,"

China says Trump admin's change to U.S. fact sheet on Taiwan "further damaging" regional peace

China says the Trump administration has "gravely backpedaled" the U.S. position on Taiwan by removing a short clause in an online fact sheet.

www.cbsnews.com

imo

 

[Simply Southern]

RSBM,

Given the other developments today:

Hegseth halts cyber operations against Russia, adding to an ugly pattern

and the previous "de-activation" (is that what Musk is calling it??) of USAID, I'll just copy & paste a response to a query someone asked me about the top item and its potential impacts based upon my own strategic level work experience:

Combine this with the pillage & plunder of USAID. The thing with USAID (Soft Power) is that the true issue is that a lot of black things are baked into their budgets; USAID pays for a lot of Intelligence networks for instance. They are were the ears on the ground around the world so to speak. They are also no more.

The world has now offically become a much scarier place - especially so if you happen to live in a democracy.

And, that means America and Americans too are at greater risk; it's FVEY allies and (former??) NATO allies will now be much more averse to sharing intelligence with it.

Sad times.

So suffice to say, the signs are there that 47 is clearly aligning with Putin and ergo Russia. IMO.

Of course it's an unnamed source.

Yes every USAID contract is being reviewed. Biden pushed all the money allotted to Ukraine out in November and December. The current budget runs out March 14th. There is very few dollars left in any of these USAID accounts. Many of these accounts will not be funded in the new budget. The new budget preliminarily past the house last week. They're slightly less than a trillion dollars in reductions. We have overspent due to COVID. The US spent a lot of money supporting businesses that were closed, an extra $700 a week unemployment, we increase in foreign aid to help others, businesses weren't opened so our taxes we receive are less. We cannot budget to spend more than we are expecting in taxes. Under the previous administration, we increase the spending limit (being we borrowed money) and we were a half a trillion over budget the previous four years.

All foreign aid is being reduced. School funding is taking a huge hit, healthcare, many others. That's what happens when you're overspend. At some point you have to pay the credit card bill. COVID was very expensive. We upgraded schools, government buildings, gave grants to businesses, paid people that were out of work for over a year. We had billions in vaccines research and development and production, about millions of medical equipment for hospitals, reimburse hospitals for all uninsured, free vaccines, free testing, free home test kits, the list is endless. The US government was good to its citizens during COVID. The US did everything possible to protect us and fight against COVID. Now we have to make some sacrifices.

Many are and will be mad at the US for lack of grants and donations. The government is no different than running your personal finances. If you overspend you have to borrow money. The more money you borrow the higher the interest rate. At some point you have to start paying back the money, interest will exceed the loan amount.

The UK just announced they were having to cut foreign aid in order to support Ukraine. I posted the article early this morning.

I don't think NATO is going to stop sharing information. The Secretary of NATO what's on x Saturday, telling Zelensky we needed to fix this with the US. We're a very large donor. Forget GDP and any other calculations, we give a very large amount of cash. I'm sure it would sorely be missed.

Hearing all the comments about Americans and the blame that you place on the US, is hurtful. I begin to wonder why we do anything for other countries if they feel this way about us.
Moo

 

[PommyMommy]

Remember when NATO's 2% defense spending target seemed ambitious? Now European leaders are seriously discussing 5% of GDP.

"It's not a question if it's achievable. It has to be," says German DefMin Pistorius on the goal. But how will Germany fund it?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896727336080331116

Russia concocts ‘treason’ charges eight months after abducting young Crimean woman

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896757517570457683

Russian troops tied up their own soldier and used him as bait for a drone strike.

Shocking footage shows an infantryman restrained and left in open terrain to lure an FPV drone before it strikes.

This brutal tactic aligns with Russia's increasing use of expendable infantry, sending troops as human shields or decoys to expose Ukrainian positions.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896616025782677788