4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #100

[mrjitty]

I think a witness could be interpreted as defense producing an expert to opine that X white car on video at, say, 4am at X location could be an elantra. Moo that would be in support of an alibi, weak as it may be. Jmo 'witness' does not have to be an eye witness. Ditto for cell data. But my point is, it has to be for the time of the crime, not at 3am, not at 2am, not 'earlier in the evening. Re the cell data, if BK turned his phone off at c2.50am and kept it off until c4.50am, then what use is Sy Ray in terms of an alibi? AJ said the phone was off. This is something that can be ascertained from the forensic down load, as actions like that are logged by a phone. USB of BK phone forensic down load was another warrant the Defense sought to have suppressed and this could be one of the reasons why. Jmo

I think from the state's filings for the MIL, at this point the defense has still not provided any witnesses (experts or otherwise) to support an alibi for where BK was at the time the crime was committed. Stressing that this is just my conjecture. Jmo.

Yes this is my view as well.

There was nothing preventing AT from filing to say where BK said he was, and saying Sy Ray will prove it.

She doesn't want to do that, because she actually wants the state to present it's whole case, and then try to poke holes in it.

A firm alibi gives the state a target to knock down. Better to be non-committal IMO.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

An analyst swabbed "the entire leather portion of the strap, both top and bottom, and then the underside of the button," Nowlin testified. "She did not swab the top of the button because that was determined to be the most likely place for fingerprints to be found."

New details in Bryan Kohberger case: Judge unseals transcripts from hearing in Idaho college murders

Here are some of the new details revealed from the transcript of the closed-door hearing

6abc.com

 

[jepop]

Yes this is my view as well.

There was nothing preventing AT from filing to say where BK said he was, and saying Sy Ray will prove it.

She doesn't want to do that, because she actually wants the state to present it's whole case, and then try to poke holes in it.

A firm alibi gives the state a target to knock down. Better to be non-committal IMO.

Agree, it's been nine months now since MTC x4 where Sy Ray testified and Detective Payne explained the video vault.

JJJ gave defense every opportunity to comb through cell data and video footage. He must have known what was going on. Imo if he was still on the case, he would have responded by now to P's late April objection and ruled accordingly. Jmo

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Prosecutors, meanwhile, last week cited a state law providing “mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct” except “expert evidence on the issues of any state of mind which is an element of the offense,” a court filing shows.

Defense for Idaho quadruple murder suspect Bryan Kohberger may cite autism to try to strike death penalty option - Boston News, Weather, Sports | WHDH 7News

(CNN) — Attorneys for the man accused of stabbing four University of Idaho students to death in 2022 have nodded to autism spectrum disorder in asking the court<a class="excerpt-read-more"...

whdh.com

 

[Megnut]

I advanced a general proposition over various jurisdictions, and said it varies. But the general policy reason to require early disclosure is to prevent the fabrication of an alibi late in the day. As per your cite



Of course should a witnesses emerge late in the day, it might be possible to stand up an alibi defence - i didn't say anything about that.



Sure - but that doesn't mean they can't give proper notice of a alibi within the statutory time limits. The defendant does not need Sy Ray to tell him where he was.



Sure - I have never said they can't use Sy Ray to cast doubt on where the defendant was. I don't even think they need to go to an alibi defence for that. Sy Ray can simply cast doubt on the state's CAST expert's findings. But they didn't need time to analyse where BK was. AT could simply ask him.



I don't think the prosecution is saying the cell data can't be used in that way. This is an evidential argument in this specific case.

For an alibi defence, the defendant must disclose the location within the 10 day limit (unless the Judge otherwise directs). The state is saying that the star gazer alibi can only be laid out explicitly before the jury if it comes in via some admissible evidence from some witness. Logically that witness can only be BK.

Otherwise you have the absurd scenario of Sy Ray having 2 years to figure out where BK was. He can of course still dispute where BK wasn't, and give ideas on what he thinks is more likely. He obviously cannot say that BK was 'star gazing" per the alibi defence. There is no way for Ray to know this.

My original argument is still simply that you cannot get this 'star gazing' in as an alibi without the defendant, unless you have something like the defendant talking to someone and saying 'oh i will go star gazing this evening'

Like how else do you bring it in?

IMO

Exactly.

AT didn't say he was star gazing THAT night, just that he had. To establish custom. Nothing creepy about driving around late at night.

The alibi she floated was: he was driving in Moscow, just not 'over there'. And his cellphone records would support that. I think she is trying to suggest he was in a different white car on the far side of Moscow and had no cell coverage. Unsupported by evidence so she represented to the judge that they didn't yet have all the evidence.

That alibi structure has been dismantled. Because the moment she mouthed it, the Prosecution refuted it.

Phone wasn't out of range. It was OFF.

State has enough images, grainy though they may be, to create a map, consistent with migration from Pullman to Moscow. She still will -- she'll ask the jury to wonder why they'd no video of the Elentra, here or there, as if somehow there's a way to interpret it, rising to a level of doubt.

Even her argument that the car was nosed away from Moscow fails the double park. The mystery 7 minutes or 5 or whatever, no mystery. I'm guessing BK left campus twice. Once, leaving away from Moscow before circling back. The judge himself asked her how it's significant (nosing out the other way) when it's a whole hour before the crimes.

What difference if he left to the west if he ultimately headed east before reaching 1122 King? The route isn't on trial. Even if the State doesn't have the route fully articulated, it doesn't mean he didn't get there.

Maybe BK will take the stand (doubt it) and sweatered ninjas will get another work out.

I can't see where she's going to be successful with either motion, SODDI or alibi. Instead I see the judge granting her SOME latitude on cross examination.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Agree, it's been nine months now since MTC x4 where Sy Ray testified and Detective Payne explained the video vault.

JJJ gave defense every opportunity to comb through cell data and video footage. He must have known what was going on. Imo if he was still on the case, he would have responded by now to P's late April objection and ruled accordingly. Jmo

My guess is we'll discover in the MIL hearing that the only evidence of stargazing comes from BK himself. If anything else existed, the state would know about it.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

"The defense is making the argument that Bryan Kohberger was out for a drive in no specific area or place. And that's his alibi. And they presented no witness to be able to testify to that. So, the prosecution is arguing that if the defense does raise any argument about alibi, that would have to come from Bryan Kohberger and no other source," explained ABC News legal contributor Brian Buckmire

Bryan Kohberger update: New battle over alibi in Idaho college murders case | What it means

The prosecution argued the judge should limit the evidence Kohberger's attorneys can present to support his alibi for the November 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students.

abc7.com

 

[Diddian]

Of course I have no proof and it’s just my feelings about this, but I don’t believe he intentionally left the sheath behind.

IMO things became more complicated than he’d pictured. Maddie and Kaylee together in the bed, Xana and Ethan fighting him, frenzied stabbing, and he lost it. Physically lost the sheath and mentally “lost it” when his imagined scenario became more complex.

I think he was exhausted though satiated by killing them and just made that one grievous error (thankfully). Maybe he didn’t see the sheath was positioned as it was by Maddie and just hightailed it out of there.

If he was signaling something by leaving the sheath intentionally, I don’t see it.

OR I’m totally wrong. Who knows?

JMO

IMO, I also don't think he intentionally left it behind because he is smart enough to know that, even if he thoroughly cleaned it, there would always be the chance he missed something that ties him to it.

In addition, I suspect that his trip BACK to the site of the murders at around 9 in the morning was NOT to observe LE in action investigating his crime, but was instead to see if he'd dropped the sheath near where he'd shed his murder suit or, if a different place, near where he'd returned to his vehicle after the murders. He likely hoped he could find it before LE did. My guess is that BK had discovered the sheath was missing after he'd driven south and reached the predetermined location where he was unpacking the clothing he'd worn during the murder and other evidence (possibly the knife) to prep for disposal.

Do I remember correctly that his phone location indicated he had spent around 20 minutes after stopping somewhere near Blaine?

 

[jepop]

I probably shouldn't tell you that as a teenager I once raised a fryingpan in a threatening manner against my brother.

I've raised a frypan...and attempted a strike...against a flying cockroach! Have also raised my fists against one brother as teens over the teeve remote control, lol. All to say, I do agree the phone stealing incident by teenage BK has no place in this trial. Moo

 

[jepop]

• 03/01/2024 Appellant Reply Motion Extention of Time
• 03/22/2024 Motion for Seventh Extension of Time
• 03/25/2024 Appellant Reply Motion Extention of Time
• 03/28/2024 Appellants Reply Brief
• 02/06/2025 Published Opinion
• 02/06/2025 Published Opinion Summary

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

NonStop Local KHQ submitted a records request for the motion, however a second motion filed on Tuesday suggested the parties agreed to file the motion to strike the death penalty under seal, meaning the information may not be made available, even with a records request.

Bryan Kohberger’s defense may seek to remove death penalty, citing autism spectrum disorder

BOISE, Idaho — The defense team for Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of killing four University of Idaho students in 2022, may be seeking to remove the death penalty as

www.nbcrightnow.com

Guess I'll just note that OP has accidentally linked court docs to another Idaho case- Aaron Von Ehlinger.

Appreciate the link to the article re BK ASD defense filing. Interesting read.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Diagnosed autistic plus various other forms of neurospicy, managed today to get up, yet again, and go about my day without breaking into anyone else's home in the middle of the night and murdering people. Just like the last forty three years.

ALSO, manage to engage with and consciously consume true crime daily with the understanding that it's a genre that cannot exist without harm to others. Still have no urge to murder, still have a deep desire to be as ethical in my consumption of the genre as is possible.

Now, I'm not a low empathy autistic person, but my mother is. She's been an active primary school teacher for almost fifty years. Still teaching in her early seventies. Also obeys the law, also has never murdered anyone.

BK has a concept and understanding of morality and socially acceptable behaviour. He wouldn't have got to his level of education specialising in crime without it. Autistic people live and work and exist in society every day with varying degrees of integration, intelligence, empathy, and social connections. They make choices every day. Not every autistic person loves rules, but a lot do, because it's a stable framework to interact with the world.

By all we know, BK understands what his choices mean. That means the law should reflect that in how it deals with him.

MOO

The reaction button only allowed me to love this post once, so just to make sure you know how much I appreciate it......

 

[Charlot123]

BK is a narcissist. He believes that he is SO superior to other lesser humans, that magically he will win the case.

Or, being on death row in Idaho is almost as safe as being in a baby crib. Idaho hasn't killed anyone in almost a decade. BK gets his own personal crib, no work detail, won't have to be with lesser beings. Just lay in bed all day and read, or whatever they do there.

<modsnip - off topic/not a response to OP>

Even potential autism is on the table raising question whether people with such a diagnosis might be potential victims due to some personal traits.

And, the trial will be open. And, BK, for all I know, is not poorly treated in jail.

So, an interesting case to discuss all these questions.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Diagnosed autistic plus various other forms of neurospicy, managed today to get up, yet again, and go about my day without breaking into anyone else's home in the middle of the night and murdering people. Just like the last forty three years.

ALSO, manage to engage with and consciously consume true crime daily with the understanding that it's a genre that cannot exist without harm to others. Still have no urge to murder, still have a deep desire to be as ethical in my consumption of the genre as is possible.

Now, I'm not a low empathy autistic person, but my mother is. She's been an active primary school teacher for almost fifty years. Still teaching in her early seventies. Also obeys the law, also has never murdered anyone.

BK has a concept and understanding of morality and socially acceptable behaviour. He wouldn't have got to his level of education specialising in crime without it. Autistic people live and work and exist in society every day with varying degrees of integration, intelligence, empathy, and social connections. They make choices every day. Not every autistic person loves rules, but a lot do, because it's a stable framework to interact with the world.

By all we know, BK understands what his choices mean. That means the law should reflect that in how it deals with him.

MOO

Bravo!
This may be the most insightful, intelligent post in the history of WS.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

"And from what my understanding was, entering another DNA profile into CODIS would remove the previous one we had from the knife sheath," he said. CODIS is the nationwide Combined DNA Index System, which includes DNA profiles of convicted offenders, unsolved crime scene evidence and missing people.

"So if memory serves, the discussion was we'll hold off, we'll stay with the one from the knife sheath; if we need to, we can address the Unknown Male B at a later time," Payne testified

https://6abc.com/post/bryan-kohberg...ng-4-university-idaho-students/15956406/[/URL

 

[Charlot123]

Diagnosed autistic plus various other forms of neurospicy, managed today to get up, yet again, and go about my day without breaking into anyone else's home in the middle of the night and murdering people. Just like the last forty three years.

ALSO, manage to engage with and consciously consume true crime daily with the understanding that it's a genre that cannot exist without harm to others. Still have no urge to murder, still have a deep desire to be as ethical in my consumption of the genre as is possible.

Now, I'm not a low empathy autistic person, but my mother is. She's been an active primary school teacher for almost fifty years. Still teaching in her early seventies. Also obeys the law, also has never murdered anyone.

BK has a concept and understanding of morality and socially acceptable behaviour. He wouldn't have got to his level of education specialising in crime without it. Autistic people live and work and exist in society every day with varying degrees of integration, intelligence, empathy, and social connections. They make choices every day. Not every autistic person loves rules, but a lot do, because it's a stable framework to interact with the world.

By all we know, BK understands what his choices mean. That means the law should reflect that in how it deals with him.

MOO

@iamshadow21 , respectfully, autism is not a single genovar. Many different conditions might be lumped under “autism” just according to ICD10 or because we don’t yet know what genetic composition stands behind it. BK’s autism might be very different from a “conventional” one.

IMHO, autistic people as a group have fallen victims of an old description where it was said that autistic people had to be lacking empathy. Most autistic people I have met don’t. They may be struggling with alexithymia, finding words for emotions, and it may be viewed as lack of empathy but it is just not so.

So if BK is diagnosed with autism, I’d like to know what stands behind his form and how he indeed views this world. Also, if he did commit the crime, what phase of his upbringing was the most deleterious one. How sitting for years at home and gaining degrees and then being let out to “freedom” might have contributed.

Lastly, strange doesn’t equate “potentially able to kill”. I am concerned about the way he is viewed by the LE system and the community.

 

[Charlot123]

"And from what my understanding was, entering another DNA profile into CODIS would remove the previous one we had from the knife sheath," he said. CODIS is the nationwide Combined DNA Index System, which includes DNA profiles of convicted offenders, unsolved crime scene evidence and missing people.

"So if memory serves, the discussion was we'll hold off, we'll stay with the one from the knife sheath; if we need to, we can address the Unknown Male B at a later time," Payne testified

New details in Bryan Kohberger case: Judge unseals transcripts from hearing in Idaho college murders

Here are some of the new details revealed from the transcript of the closed-door hearing

6abc.com

Why?
23@me sometimes has double DNA for a single owner. I know people who got a DNA kit gift and re-used it. It CODIS system can hold “one DNA - one owner”, it has to be changed. Seems to be quite obsolete, sorry.

 

[Balthazar]

The defense has to prepare for the possibility he is convicted, which is where this mitigation stuff comes in. It's not a sign that they expect him to be convicted, although I'm sure they absolutely do believe that.

There's no telling if a plea has been offered, or if one will be offered down the road. This guy has been suicidal in the past, so maybe there's just no reason to take a plea. I fully expect this to go to trial.

Where did you find information that BK has been suicidal? I have not seen anything like that. I hate to ask, but do you have a link? I'd like to find out more.

 

[MeadowMuffin]

I'm sure BK's IQ is above 70.Jmo but he was pursuing higher education after all. As the word spectrum indicates imo ASD can manifest in various ways and there are varying severities of symptoms. I don't think intellectual disability as technically defined by State of Idaho will form any part of defense's arguments here. Just in my opinion.

And let's not forget that he won some sort of contemporaneous debate contest is his youth. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

Where did you find information that BK has been suicidal? I have not seen anything like that. I hate to ask, but do you have a link? I'd like to find out more.

Context is his heroin use:

“I only used when I was in a deep suicidal state,” The Times reported Kohberger wrote to Baylis. “I have since really learned a lot. Not a person alive could convince me to use it.”

https://amp.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article272531864.html

 

[Balthazar]

I'm never find it now but iirc wasn't that a relevation from the transcript/released documents? That it was a lone print?

All this time, I assumed only one print was cited in the PCA not because there was only one but because of the relevance/location.

The transcript reads like there was one and only one print. Which makes zero sense, granted.

Anybody else read/remember it that way?

JMO

I remember it being a lone shoe print with none before or after AND it was invisible to the naked eye. I've wondered if the shoe print could have been applied like a rubber stamp to the floor. The shoe print was only found via extra testing with amido black after CSI had finished with the house and then was sent back out to the house for some reason - I assume LE was trying to verify what DM and/or BF had told them since they focused on the area outside of DM's bedroom door where she claimed the man she saw was. Was the area cleaned so thoroughly that no other print remained? Did they type the blood found on the shoe print and determine if it may have been that of one or more of the victims? It IS a very strange piece of evidence, IMO. I'm hoping we will eventually get an explanation for it.

All JMO.