4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #102

[BeginnerSleuther]

There is a disconnect when it comes to certain kinds of "mental illness" in the psych community. I think they can readily identify all the disorders and philias. but it falls apart when you try to ascertain which person is a real danger to society..perhaps they are high functioning and fully lucid...they have yet to fulfill the violent side of their identity, or they haven't admitted their secret behaviors...so even if the person is known to be schizo and hears voices, or if he has had breakdowns and been treated in the past..there is no stop gap measure. And some people like Rader hide so well it's freaky...but then later you hear from his daughter how things were behind closed doors. mOO

There is a big difference between disorders/illness and criminality.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

To jump off your post-
LE’s #1 priority to keep everyone safe including the suspect

SBMFF

No one is safe during a no-knock warrant, not psychologically or physically. Further, just because the family didn't experience physical injuries doesn't mean they weren't injured psychologically, so if the priority is to keep everyone safe, then they failed.

MOO.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Well, exactly.

Thought I was on the Morphew thread for a minute...

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

A suspected quadruple murderer is an extreme criminal, not by itself, an extreme "circumstance."

This was absolutely NOT an extreme circumstance, IMO. They could have gotten him when he left the house. They could have gotten him when he went on one of his nighttime runs. They could have gotten him the next time he emptied the trash. Etc. Etc. Etc. There were many opportunities to get this guy in the weeks before and there would have been in the weeks after too. There's no evidence he was soon-to-become a hermit isolating in the woods or taking off to some far-off exotic country. There would have been ways to get him without all the trauma and damage they did to the family.

This was a choice.

MOO.

Respectfully, if that be the case - what about the trauma and damage the assailant did to the family of the four victims?

If it was a ‘choice’ - and I am not conceding that it was, then I am glad the authorities made it. And enacted it exactly as they did.

And IIRC, it seems some within BK own family might have had some suspicions about his conduct or behavior….. and whether he might have been involved of the slaying of the four students. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Respectfully, if that be the case - what about the trauma and damage the assailant did to the family of the four victims?

If it was a ‘choice’ - and I am not conceding that it was, then I am glad the authorities made it. And enacted it exactly as they did.

And IIRC, it seems some within BK own family might have had some suspicions about his conduct or behavior….. and whether he might have been involved of the slaying of the four students. MOO

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the murderer AT ALL. Whoever killed those students deserves a life behind bars. 100%. I do believe BK is likely guilty. But I can believe that BK is a killer and, at the same time, be annoyed at how this was all handled. I've said from the beginning I HOPE BK is guilty and I hope they got the right guy and I hope they can make a case beyond reasonable doubt, because there were many times throughout this whole thing where I certainly wasn't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt and felt the state had holes in their case.

But all that said, I still don't agree with no-knock warrants. I feel they're dangerous and should be reserved for extreme circumstances and I don't believe this was one.

I feel like the argument has been reduced to either they knock and politely introduce themselves and what they're going to do or they invade with a no-knock warrant.

There is an in-between.

IMO, what makes a circumstance extreme is when there is no chance they can take the perp without the perp fleeing or harming others. That wasn't the case with BK. He was routinely leaving the home. They could have easily surprised him and taken him in when he left the house.

They had countless opportunities before he even got to PA and there were going to be countless opportunities after. They chose not to do that. That's their choice or whatever, and they're the experts. But my opinion is, it wasn't the only choice they had.

MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

SBMFF

No one is safe during a no-knock warrant, not psychologically or physically. Further, just because the family didn't experience physical injuries doesn't mean they weren't injured psychologically, so if the priority is to keep everyone safe, then they failed.

MOO.

They believed he was destroying evidence, and you never wait until the morning in that situation.

So at that point they have two options. Do what they did and take him when they knew exactly where he was, or knock on the door and tip off a quadruple murderer who owned a gun.

They had no way of knowing he didn’t have ammunition.

Sorry, but I prefer overwhelming force and surprise, to potentially engaging a quadruple murderer with nothing to lose in a firefight.

 

[NCWatcher]

Respectfully, if that be the case - what about the trauma and damage the assailant did to the family of the four victims?

If it was a ‘choice’ - and I am not conceding that it was, then I am glad the authorities made it. And enacted it exactly as they did.

And IIRC, it seems some within BK own family might have had some suspicions about his conduct or behavior….. and whether he might have been involved of the slaying of the four students. MOO

It's not clear to me exactly what all of BK's family members thought. So far as I know, only one sister has been vocal. But even if they were all suspicious, I wouldn't think that would lessen the trauma of experiencing a middle of the night no-knock bust complete with a SWAT team.

Of course, the dead victims' families suffered trauma and continue to do so I'm sure. But that seems pretty irrelevant to making a decision to subject another family to excessive trauma of a different sort. The arrest procedure wasn't "payback" or shouldn't have been.
MOO

 

[Megnut]

Thought I was on the Morphew thread for a minute...

Frazee.

Worth comparing actually. He had an adequate defense team. Offered no defense, made careful sure his rights were protected throughout his murder trial. Stakes are, of course, higher here because it's a quadruple murder and a capital case. AT has the undeniable job of defending a defendant who has no real defense while clawing at the DP in order to spare him that.

She changed venues and landed her in the Court of No Nonsense Hippler. He has studied the law and the case and he makes no apologies. He'll shut her every time she tries to noise over the facts of the case.

Hipp check.

JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

They believed he was destroying evidence, and you never wait until the morning in that situation.

So at that point they have two options. Do what they did and take him when they knew exactly where he was, or knock on the door and tip off a quadruple murderer who owned a gun.

They had no way of knowing he didn’t have ammunition.

Sorry, but I prefer overwhelming force and surprise, to potentially engaging a quadruple murderer with nothing to lose in a firefight.

Can you please direct me to where I can find information about what they thought he was doing at the time? I know he was separating trash, but I've read nothing of them thinking he was "destroying evidence." What evidence? Where is that theory coming from? I haven't kept up that close with this case because...life, so it's possible I missed something.

 

[SteveP]

A suspected quadruple murderer is an extreme criminal, not by itself, an extreme "circumstance."

This was absolutely NOT an extreme circumstance, IMO. They could have gotten him when he left the house. They could have gotten him when he went on one of his nighttime runs. They could have gotten him the next time he emptied the trash. Etc. Etc. Etc. There were many opportunities to get this guy in the weeks before and there would have been in the weeks after too. There's no evidence he was soon-to-become a hermit isolating in the woods or taking off to some far-off exotic country. There would have been ways to get him without all the trauma and damage they did to the family.

This was a choice.

MOO.

Respectfully, none of us here are in a position to determine if the circumstance was extreme. Once BK was identified as the likely murderer of four people, it would have been foolish, imo, not to take him into custody as quickly as possible. Sure, they could have gotten him when he left the house, but when might that have been? It is reasonable to assume that he feared that he either was already being, or soon would be sought and found by authorities, as is evidenced by him carefully disposing of his trash at a neighbor's home, in the wee hours of the morning darkness. Maybe he wouldn't go out again. How could he be sure it was not someone in his own family that tipped police off to his whereabouts? If he was already paranoid, what assurance was there that he would not kill family members in their own home, or at the very least, hold them hostage if he felt police closing in on him? LE already knew that he may possess weapons, as the KaBar knife had not been found. What assurance did LE have that he was not attempting to further destroy evidence, as it seems may have been the case with the detailed car cleaning he did very shortly after arriving in Pa? They had no assurances or any reason to believe that it would be wiser in any way, to just sit around and 'wait him out'. LE were the only ones qualified to determine the best time and place to swoop in and take this likely quadruple murderer into custody, and it seems they did it by the book, as no innocents were injured in the arrest. JMO

 

[vls12345]

This gave me a start—the lid on my to-go coffee from a new place.

Only those on this forum will understand why I was creeped out.

I don't think I could actually use that after seeing what it says. And to put my lips on it? Nope. Not happening.

 

[SteveP]

SBMFF

No one is safe during a no-knock warrant, not psychologically or physically. Further, just because the family didn't experience physical injuries doesn't mean they weren't injured psychologically, so if the priority is to keep everyone safe, then they failed.

MOO.

While I do feel badly for them, I dare say that their son and brother has injured the family far, far more than LE ever could. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

Can you please direct me to where I can find information about what they thought he was doing at the time? I know he was separating trash, but I've read nothing of them thinking he was "destroying evidence." What evidence? Where is that theory coming from? I haven't kept up that close with this case because...life, so it's possible I missed something.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/021925-Order-Defendants-Motions-Suppress-Arrest-Warrants-Pensylvania-Apartment.pdf

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Respectfully, none of us here are in a position to determine if the circumstance was extreme.

We are in a position to give our opinions, however. And that's what I'm doing. IMO, it wasn't an extreme circumstance.

Once BK was identified as the likely murderer of four people, it would have been foolish, imo, not to take him into custody as quickly as possible. Sure, they could have gotten him when he left the house, but when might that have been? It is reasonable to assume that he feared that he either was already being, or soon would be sought and found by authorities, as is evidenced by him carefully disposing of his trash at a neighbor's home, in the wee hours of the morning darkness. Maybe he wouldn't go out again. How could he be sure it was not someone in his own family that tipped police off to his whereabouts?

I mean, maybe. But they could have also gotten him when he was putting trash in the neighbor's bin. They also knew that he nightly leaves for his runs. Why not get him then? This was not a hermit who never left the house.

If he was already paranoid, what assurance was there that he would not kill family members in their own home, or at the very least, hold them hostage if he felt police closing in on him?

There's no evidence that he was paranoid, though I understand what makes you say that.

LE already knew that he may possess weapons, as the KaBar knife had not been found. What assurance did LE have that he was not attempting to further destroy evidence, as it seems may have been the case with the detailed car cleaning he did after arriving in Pa? They had no assurances or any reason to believe that it would be wiser in any way, to just sit around and 'wait him out'. LE were the only ones qualified to determine the best time and place to swoop in and take this likely quadruple murderer into custody, and it seems they did it by the book, as no innocents were injured in the arrest. JMO

It's my opinion that no-knocks when innocent bystanders are in the home should be reserved as an absolute last resort. Not a "what if" scenario. IMO, this was not an absolute last resort.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Frazee.

Worth comparing actually. He had an adequate defense team. Offered no defense, made careful sure his rights were protected throughout his murder trial. Stakes are, of course, higher here because it's a quadruple murder and a capital case. AT has the undeniable job of defending a defendant who has no real defense while clawing at the DP in order to spare him that.

She changed venues and landed her in the Court of No Nonsense Hippler. He has studied the law and the case and he makes no apologies. He'll shut her every time she tries to noise over the facts of the case.

Hipp check.

JMO

Thank you! Something in the back of my mind knew I'd confused those two cases.

And your comparison is apt!

 

[Megnut]

All we know from the night of the no-knock entry is that BK was taken into custody without incident and the residents of the house all survived. Which is more than we can say for the four victims.

We can armchair quarterback to raid for all time. Why not get him while he's put for a run? Why not nab him in a traffic stop? Why not ring the doorbell?

AT night have inadvertently answered the questions -- why then? why that way? -- in her motion in which she claims BK was cleaning the bathroom. (In the middle of the night? As essentially a guest in his childhood home? While others were sleeping?) Perhaps LE DID have reason to believe he was going to flush evidence. Perhaps LE, in watching BK go to his car, had real fear that he'd accessed a weapon.

They didn't just apprehend BK that night -- and with a probable cause burden met -- they had other adults in the home to consider and protect -- which they did -- IMO bodily putting a barrier between BK and his family members. Rambo-style raid, yes, but all the occupants came out safely.

We don't know how daytime, nighttime, jogtime arrests might have gone or Wendy could have happened if LE waited another day, or announced themselves with a knock. And we aren't privy to what BK might have done which escalated the threat.

It was a choice. But it was well-executed IMO. And, in every sense, not unwarranted.

JMO

 

[Bahshudc]

I know we are all just speculating here, but IMO, (and I know I’m becoming redundant having said this too many times), this is such an implausible chain of events. Impossible, actually, IMO.

Not at all against you, @Bahshudc, just against the multitude of outrageous theories the defense has been throwing around since Day One.

If I were a juror on this case and the defense presented this theory, it would strike me as so absurd that I don’t know if I’d laugh or cry.

I would have reasonable doubt that this theory hangs together in any way. Or whatever is even beyond reasonable doubt. Certainty, maybe?

The skin cells of BK’s DNA on the snap are not visible without a microscope. The “real killer” would have had to touch the snap to unsheathe the knife. There is just no reasonable way to wipe off any other “real killer’s” DNA from the snap while leaving BK’s intact.

BK’s DNA is on a critical spot of the murder weapon’s outer portion. The murderer HAD to touch the snap if he had any hope of using the K-Bar to kill, rather than just brandish it to scare his victims.

If there were 100 men involved in this murder, it still does not negate that his was there.

There’s only his, though. That’s because he did it. Only him.

His ghastly self-congratulatory selfie is not proof of guilt, IMO, but certainly goes to his state of mind post-murder.

JMO

I do agree with you on this - I am by no means a "proberger"!

Thanks for these points, I think you're right. I just find it interesting to wonder what on earth AT's route will be in terms of the DNA. I also wonder how she sleeps at night. I get it, a defence attorney is a really important job and means that everybody has access to a fair trial. I just wonder what she thinks the more she trawls through discovery and realises how tough a job this will be.

MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

All we know from the night of the no-knock entry is that BK was taken into custody without incident and the residents of the house all survived. Which is more than we can say for the four victims.

We can armchair quarterback to raid for all time. Why not get him while he's put for a run? Why not nab him in a traffic stop? Why not ring the doorbell?

AT night have inadvertently answered the questions -- why then? why that way? -- in her motion in which she claims BK was cleaning the bathroom. (In the middle of the night? As essentially a guest in his childhood home? While others were sleeping?) Perhaps LE DID have reason to believe he was going to flush evidence. Perhaps LE, in watching BK go to his car, had real fear that he'd accessed a weapon.

They didn't just apprehend BK that night -- and with a probable cause burden met -- they had other adults in the home to consider and protect -- which they did -- IMO bodily putting a barrier between BK and his family members. Rambo-style raid, yes, but all the occupants came out safely.

We don't know how daytime, nighttime, jogtime arrests might have gone or Wendy could have happened if LE waited another day, or announced themselves with a knock. And we aren't privy to what BK might have done which escalated the threat.

It was a choice. But it was well-executed IMO. And, in every sense, not unwarranted.

JMO

There's more to safety than physical harm.

 

[girlhasnoname]

There's more to safety than physical harm.

I believe Kaylee, Maddison, Xana, and Ethan would not agree in this particular circumstance that we are speaking to. Their physical harm far outweighed any safety protocol the night BK murdered them.

Which is why I believe LE were absolutely justified erring on the side of caution for everyone in that home in PA. They ALL made it out safely and alive unlike Kaylee, Madison, Xana and Ethan.

LE and the type of apprehension of a suspected quadruple murderer was not to blame, the blame of the arrest attempt is solely and squarely at the feet of BK.

JMO

 

[fcavanaugh]

SBMFF

No one is safe during a no-knock warrant, not psychologically or physically. Further, just because the family didn't experience physical injuries doesn't mean they weren't injured psychologically, so if the priority is to keep everyone safe, then they failed.

MOO.

Respectfully disagree. They apprehended someone they suspected responsible for the killings of 4 innocent college students which qualifies as mass murder and kept everyone in the home physically safe while doing so. Even if the suspect BK intended to kill only one of the students is irrelevant because the fact is that’s not what happened.
LE aren’t going to give the benefit of the doubt to a mass murder suspect they had no way of knowing his intention and still don’t unless he talks.

I’m sorry but they had a dangerous quadruple/mass murder suspect whom they observed sorting trash into baggies disposing in neighbors trash, the murder weapon was missing which he could’ve still had in his possession for all they knew and could have used to terrorize his family, taken them hostage, killed one of them or himself, and/or engaged LE brandishing a knife or gunfire as we now know he had access to a gun. Based on their training, procedures, and protocol they were not going to risk any of those things happening if the suspect knew they were there to arrest him. As I said some members of the public might not like or agree with a no-knock warrant but the fact is it’s legal and lawful unless or until the law changes.

I addressed his family being traumatized in my post and the sorrow and compassion I feel for them. By the same token, I’m also glad Mr. & Mrs. Kohberger and their daughters are safe from any potential additional traumas and devastation brought into their lives by their Son and Brother, and pray for them and all the victims’ families as the trial approaches.

IMHOO

ETA-clarity