I think this case is an absolute legal quagmire. Have you noticed there have been many motions and a lack of rulings in the docs? Yes, I know the typical timeframe is 22 to 110 days and it is likely Hippler will rule during the hearing on the 9th. I'm interested in AT's Timing Advance Motion. Which way will Hippler choose to go? Either way he rules, I believe it legally can only lead to one outcome. Should be interesting.
4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103
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IMO BK has diagnoses which many in the population have and yet most with said diagnoses do not commit premeditated cold blooded murder.
In fact the diagnoses BK has, again, as many have, place them in a more vulnerable position/are at higher risk than most for being the victims of crimes/murders versus being perpetrators of crimes/murders.
Most people, to include people with BK’s alleged various/co-morbid diagnoses ASD, OCD, VSS, etc., regardless of where they fall on a spectrum, follow the laws of society and know right from wrong and know that it is wrong to murder someone in cold blood. Regardless of disorder or mental illness, they have a moral compass, able to feel empathy and compassion for others.
Like others on these boards have graciously shared whether they themselves and/or family members are neurodivergent and/or various mental illness, I too have close relatives that are neurodivergent/share some of the same diagnoses as BK and who are some of the sweetest most caring individuals I know. Sure they struggle in some areas like communication and expressing emotions etc., but they obey laws and wouldn’t hurt a fly. As I’ve said before I’ll say again, there’s something else going on in the brain/wiring besides ASD OCD, VSS etc, of someone capable of murdering another human being in cold blood, never mind taking four innocent lives in cold blood! I personally don’t care if someone meant to only take one life, stating the obvious, one life taken in cold blood is one too many. And whether or not the perp in this case (BK imo) only intended to kill one victim that fateful early morning, the fact is he took four, 4! precious beautiful lives.
IMO BK knows right from wrong and wouldn’t be deemed criminally insane even if the state of Idaho allowed NGRI as a defense. It’s an incredibly high bar to meet and prove with a small percentage of the population being successful with NGRI. Andrea Yates is one example, and imo this case/this suspect BK is far from an Andrea Yates situation. There has never been any mention/indication BK suffers from paranoid delusions/hearing voices/hallucinations/paranoid schizophrenia. Having said that, depending on what happens at upcoming hearing(s), I wouldn’t be surprised if one of BK/AT team’s next maneuver is to claim BK incompetent to stand trial considering they’ve already mentioned BK’s neurodivergence interferes with his ability to assist with his defense. If is the case and competency evaluation ordered by Judge, BK will be sent off for treatment until he’s deemed restored to competency/able to assist in his defense, essentially further delaying justice for the victims and their families’.
Waiting with bated breath to see how Judge rules at upcoming hearing. In the meantime, added couple links below, one r/t ASD and one r/t Insanity vs. Incomptency.
***Snipped from Psychology Today link and BBUM:
“Lay people often take those signals to mean we Asperger people don’t have feelings, or we don’t care about them, or that we lack empathy. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
As the definition of autism and Asperger’s says: This is a communication disorder. It’s not a “lack of feeling” disorder. In fact, most clinicians who work with people on the autism spectrum will tell you autistic people tend to care deeply for people in their lives, and have a sweetness; a childlike gentleness – something totally at odds with what you’d expect in a cold blooded killer.
There is nothing in the definition of Asperger’s or autism that would make a person think we are a violent group. That’s reinforced by criminal justice studies telling us that people with autism are much less likely to commit violent crimes than the average person. Indeed, those studies show autistic people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.
If you’re looking for a group of people to fear, we’re not it.
One day we may have a hard medical test for autism – including Asperger’s. Until then, it’s diagnosed by observation – a process that is unfortunately more prone to error than we would like. The Asperger diagnosis attributed to Adam might even have been a mistake; sociopathy can masquerade as mild autism or Asperger’s.
It’s easy to see how the two conditions might be confused. After all, one is characterized by a weak ability to show feelings, while the other is founded on an absence of feeling within, and a lack of innate moral foundation. Those two conditions may look very similar, but the outcomes are not. One leads to anxiety, depression, and social failure. The other may lead to evil, and a much darker place.”
www.psychologytoday.com
IMHOO
ETA-clarification
In fact the diagnoses BK has, again, as many have, place them in a more vulnerable position/are at higher risk than most for being the victims of crimes/murders versus being perpetrators of crimes/murders.
Most people, to include people with BK’s alleged various/co-morbid diagnoses ASD, OCD, VSS, etc., regardless of where they fall on a spectrum, follow the laws of society and know right from wrong and know that it is wrong to murder someone in cold blood. Regardless of disorder or mental illness, they have a moral compass, able to feel empathy and compassion for others.
Like others on these boards have graciously shared whether they themselves and/or family members are neurodivergent and/or various mental illness, I too have close relatives that are neurodivergent/share some of the same diagnoses as BK and who are some of the sweetest most caring individuals I know. Sure they struggle in some areas like communication and expressing emotions etc., but they obey laws and wouldn’t hurt a fly. As I’ve said before I’ll say again, there’s something else going on in the brain/wiring besides ASD OCD, VSS etc, of someone capable of murdering another human being in cold blood, never mind taking four innocent lives in cold blood! I personally don’t care if someone meant to only take one life, stating the obvious, one life taken in cold blood is one too many. And whether or not the perp in this case (BK imo) only intended to kill one victim that fateful early morning, the fact is he took four, 4! precious beautiful lives.
IMO BK knows right from wrong and wouldn’t be deemed criminally insane even if the state of Idaho allowed NGRI as a defense. It’s an incredibly high bar to meet and prove with a small percentage of the population being successful with NGRI. Andrea Yates is one example, and imo this case/this suspect BK is far from an Andrea Yates situation. There has never been any mention/indication BK suffers from paranoid delusions/hearing voices/hallucinations/paranoid schizophrenia. Having said that, depending on what happens at upcoming hearing(s), I wouldn’t be surprised if one of BK/AT team’s next maneuver is to claim BK incompetent to stand trial considering they’ve already mentioned BK’s neurodivergence interferes with his ability to assist with his defense. If is the case and competency evaluation ordered by Judge, BK will be sent off for treatment until he’s deemed restored to competency/able to assist in his defense, essentially further delaying justice for the victims and their families’.
Waiting with bated breath to see how Judge rules at upcoming hearing. In the meantime, added couple links below, one r/t ASD and one r/t Insanity vs. Incomptency.
***Snipped from Psychology Today link and BBUM:
“Lay people often take those signals to mean we Asperger people don’t have feelings, or we don’t care about them, or that we lack empathy. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
As the definition of autism and Asperger’s says: This is a communication disorder. It’s not a “lack of feeling” disorder. In fact, most clinicians who work with people on the autism spectrum will tell you autistic people tend to care deeply for people in their lives, and have a sweetness; a childlike gentleness – something totally at odds with what you’d expect in a cold blooded killer.
There is nothing in the definition of Asperger’s or autism that would make a person think we are a violent group. That’s reinforced by criminal justice studies telling us that people with autism are much less likely to commit violent crimes than the average person. Indeed, those studies show autistic people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.
If you’re looking for a group of people to fear, we’re not it.
One day we may have a hard medical test for autism – including Asperger’s. Until then, it’s diagnosed by observation – a process that is unfortunately more prone to error than we would like. The Asperger diagnosis attributed to Adam might even have been a mistake; sociopathy can masquerade as mild autism or Asperger’s.
It’s easy to see how the two conditions might be confused. After all, one is characterized by a weak ability to show feelings, while the other is founded on an absence of feeling within, and a lack of innate moral foundation. Those two conditions may look very similar, but the outcomes are not. One leads to anxiety, depression, and social failure. The other may lead to evil, and a much darker place.”
Asperger’s, Autism, and Mass Murder
News reports claim the Sandy Hook killer had Asperger's. If true, was that really relevant, or does the statement just stir public opinion against people on the autism spectrum? Some thoughts on understanding.
IMHOO
ETA-clarification
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Thank you!IMO BK has diagnoses which many in the population have and yet most with said disorders do not commit premeditated cold blooded murder.
In fact the diagnoses BK has, again as many have, place them in a more vulnerable position/are at higher risk than most for being the victims of crimes/murders versus being perpetrators of crimes/murders.
Most people, to include people with BK’s alleged various/co-morbid diagnoses ASD, OCD, VSS, etc., regardless of where they fall on a spectrum, follow the laws of society and know right from wrong and know that it’s wrong to murder someone in cold blood. Regardless of disorder or mental illness, they have a moral compass, able to feel empathy and compassion for others.
Like others on these boards have graciously shared whether they themselves and/or family members are neurodivergent and/or various mental illness, I too have close relatives that are neurodivergent/share some of the same diagnoses as BK and as I’ve said before I’ll say again, there’s something else going on in the brain/wiring besides ASD OCD, VSS etc, of someone capable of murdering another human being in cold blood, never mind taking four innocent lives in cold blood. I personally don’t care if someone meant to only take one life, stating the obvious one life taken in cold blood is one too many. And whether or not the perp in this case (BK imo) only intended to kill one victim that fateful early morning, the fact is he took four, 4! precious beautiful lives.
IMO BK knows right from wrong and wouldn’t be deemed criminally insane even if the state of Idaho allowed NGRI as a defense. It’s an incredibly high bar to meet with a small percentage of the population being successful with NGRI. Andrea Yates is one example, and imo this case/this suspect BK is far from an Andrea Yates situation. There has never been any mention/indication BK suffers from paranoid delusions/hearing voices/hallucinations/paranoid schizophrenia. Having said that, depending on what happens at upcoming hearing(s), I wouldn’t be surprised if one of BK/AT team’s next maneuver is to claim BK incompetent to stand trial considering they’ve already mentioned BK’s neurodivergence interferes with his ability to assist with his defense. If is the case and competency evaluation ordered by Judge, BK will be sent off for treatment until he’s deemed restored to competency/able to assist in his defense, essentially further delaying justice for the victims and their families’.
Waiting with bated breath to see how Judge rules at upcoming hearing. In the meantime, added couple links below, one r/t ASD and one r/t Incomptency.
Snipped from Psychology Today link and BBUM:
“Lay people often take those signals to mean we Asperger people don’t have feelings, or we don’t care about them, or that we lack empathy. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
As the definition of autism and Asperger’s says: This is a communication disorder. It’s not a “lack of feeling” disorder. In fact, most clinicians who work with people on the autism spectrum will tell you autistic people tend to care deeply for people in their lives, and have a sweetness; a childlike gentleness – something totally at odds with what you’d expect in a cold blooded killer.
There is nothing in the definition of Asperger’s or autism that would make a person think we are a violent group. That’s reinforced by criminal justice studies telling us that people with autism are much less likely to commit violent crimes than the average person. Indeed, those studies show autistic people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.
If you’re looking for a group of people to fear, we’re not it.
One day we may have a hard medical test for autism – including Asperger’s. Until then, it’s diagnosed by observation – a process that is unfortunately more prone to error than we would like. The Asperger diagnosis attributed to Adam might even have been a mistake; sociopathy can masquerade as mild autism or Asperger’s.
It’s easy to see how the two conditions might be confused. After all, one is characterized by a weak ability to show feelings, while the other is founded on an absence of feeling within, and a lack of innate moral foundation. Those two conditions may look very similar, but the outcomes are not. One leads to anxiety, depression, and social failure. The other may lead to evil, and a much darker place.
Asperger’s, Autism, and Mass Murder
News reports claim the Sandy Hook killer had Asperger's. If true, was that really relevant, or does the statement just stir public opinion against people on the autism spectrum? Some thoughts on understanding.
IMHOO
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But what does that have to do with his alleged behaviour and his bad decision to allegedly take 4 innocent lives? Who cares if he has personal insights into that behaviour, or not?
He does know murder is a crime, and he does know it is something he could be arrested and charged with.
What else does he need to know to be held accountable?
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Question: Do we know if his personal computer has been examined? TY
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I don't believe this case is a legal quagmire. AT is just attempting to make it look like one, by wanting to take IGG to the Supreme Court, and wanting to suppress words like 'Murder' and 'Bushy Eyebrows' from the courtroom.
I think this is a pretty straight forward, although a brutal and senseless one. IMO
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Absolutely! It was listed in items taken from search of his apartment, according to Evidence Collection Log...
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So well-stated by you, and such a relevant and impactful excerpt from Psychology Today.
This taught me something more about the communication disorder aspect of being on the spectrum, as opposed to any lack of emotion.
I appreciate and agree with everything in this post (except the Boston Red Sox avatar—-Go Yankees)!!!!!!
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This is all completely standard stuff; I haven't seen much here that I haven't seen in other cases. As far at the timing advance records go, I'm sure there's absolutely nothing to it. The state isn't going to jeopardize their careers and this case, by telling easily provable lies.
Just more unfounded accusations from the defense, just like their hilarious Frank's efforts.
My impression is not that BK's diagnoses have been presented to say he didn't know murder was a crime and so he shouldn't be held accountable for murder. People keep saying he knew right from wrong despite his dx. Knowing right from wrong, essentially the M'Naghten test of insanity, isn't relevant because insanity defenses aren't allowed in Idaho & I"m sure his attorney knows that!
I'm simply saying that all of us-- those of us with diagnoses and those of us without diagnoses-- have areas where our perceptions of situations aren't accurate at times. And like it or not, all of us have occasions where we don't realize how we come across to others. It has little to do with whether we've earned degrees after high school. And it doesn't take a dx of autism (or anything else) for that to be true.
People are free to disagree with any post of course. But I am surprised that so many people are seeming to argue that because he has earned post-secondary degrees in social science areas and because he was currently in a social science doctoral program, BK would not have been subject to a lack of insight or a lack of understanding of how he comes across to others. That studying and coming to an intellectual understanding how the consequences of their behavior have affected other people, BK could and would easily apply that understanding to his own behavior. But it just doesn't work that way. We may be perfectly able to see where others have made mistakes or how others have failed to accurately grasp how their behavior affected other people yet still be unable to objectively understand the effects of our own behavior. I believe AT is not arguing BK's diagnoses make him insane, but that they greatly magnify that aspect of human behavior.
MOO
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Yep. BK affirmed under questioning from the judge at appearances in Jan and May 2023 ( arraignment ) that he was of sound mind and understood the charges against him. AT will never get a ruling that he is incompetent to stand trial. Ridiculous. She will never convince a jury via experts at sentencing that he did not understand murder is wrong or that he didn't understand he had murdered people. Jmo
And I can't see how she will be able to make a coherent and non-laughable guilt phase defense that diagnosed OCD and/or autism mean that BK could not have murdered anybody when all the evidence says um yeah he did. That's about all these diagnoses could be used for during guilt phase and if somehow that is what AT attempts it will be a complete joke. I can't imagine her attempting that at trial. OTOH, who really knows. Just witness the lengths of mis- characterisation and accusation which moo defense seem willing to traverse, over what I believe will be proven to be non existent AT&T timing advance records for BK!! Jmo
On date of diagnosis: The defense fail to provide a date for historical diagnoses. I'm assuming the autism diagnosis is only recent and instigated by the defense. Note, the experts are claiming he exhibited symptoms in earlier life ( presumably through interviews with BK and research with his family?) but stop short of claiming he was ever diagnosed. If the diagnosis was old, the date would be in the defense filings imo. I think everything points to this being a case of retrospective diagnosis. Jmo
Yep, he just not all that. He just wanted to break the law by killing a few innocent young people ( or one/ two depending on your theory) and get away with it. Standard stuff for would be killers. Jmo
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Thank you, SteveP. Do we know what-all has been found on it, if anything, or is that something that might be presented at trail?
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The state intends to call Jeff Tanzola, an FBI special agent who specializes in digital forensics. We have no idea what was found on there, outside of comments made by SG, who alluded to a "sadistic" search history. We'll have to wait and see if that's true.
I'm not sure you understand the repercussions of the forthcoming decision for the Timing Advance Motion. We will see what happens.
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And there's always the possiblity, as far as his interactions with students as a TA, that BK is just a jerk. Not because of ASD or OCD etc...just because that's what his personality is like. He could just be obnoxious, an unpleasant person.
JMO
Lets see if the D can actually prove any of its wild allegations - unlike the last times.
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Yeah it seems, as a way to plea down from DP to a life sentence.
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Seems like AT knew he was one of them from the start.
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Some people just don't care what others think and are also antisocial because that's their personality. Some have medical mind issues contributing to that behavior and some just choose such behavior because that's the way they tick. I wonder why the D's experts report on BK's mental evaluations is missing so many important details that the P had to file a motion to obtain them? That could be the real question here. Maybe the report's vagueness is intentional and not just careless? AJMO
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