4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #107

[Slamalam]

The idea that he intended to SA/rape anyone seems unlikely to me, given the lengths he apparently went to to completely cover himself and leave no trace of DNA behind. JMO

For those who think that was his intent, how do you suppose he would have avoided leaving behind any evidence or DNA? Curious as to how that would even be possible- thanks!

 

[girlhasnoname]

What on earth could this be: Notice of Hearing - Discussion Regarding Role of Victims SEALED?

The document reveals nothing.

I noticed the Judge issued a Motion Approving the Sealing of the Defense's Offer of Proof Regarding Alternate Suspects.

 

[Megnut]

The idea that he intended to SA/rape anyone seems unlikely to me, given the lengths he apparently went to to completely cover himself and leave no trace of DNA behind. JMO

For those who think that was his intent, how do you suppose he would have avoided leaving behind any evidence or DNA? Curious as to how that would even be possible- thanks!

IMO this absolutely was a sexually motivated crime -- sleeping woman, accosted in bed. It was about dominance, control, violence. I think the knife wasn't just a weapon of convenience. The act of murder with a knife was his sexual thrill, something to relive, ultimate violation.

IMO he was drawn to an apartment with all female renters. Whether he intended to murder one victim or one at a time, each alone in her room, I don't think he intended to leave his DNA behind but he may have intended to exact extreme sexual violence with the knife itself.

JMO

 

[Slamalam]

IMO this absolutely was a sexually motivated crime -- sleeping woman, accosted in bed. It was about dominance, control, violence. I think the knife wasn't just a weapon of convenience. The act of murder with a knife was his sexual thrill, something to relive, ultimate violation.

IMO he was drawn to an apartment with all female renters. Whether he intended to murder one victim or one at a time, each alone in her room, I don't think he intended to leave his DNA behind but he may have intended to exact extreme sexual violence with the knife itself.

JMO

thanks for the explanation, of the knife possibly being used for the assault. There has been a lot of talk about him wanting “time with” MM which was making me think of more than just….. stabbing her? MOO

 

[Megnut]

I noticed the Judge issued a Motion Approving the Sealing of the Defense's Offer of Proof Regarding Alternate Suspects.

Right before he denies it, let us hope.

Protect the identity as much as possible of the individual who didn't commit these crimes.

I wonder if we'll see the judge's order when he responds to it, even redacted. All the usual suspects -- boyfriends, ex boyfriends, local SOs, etc -- were no doubt all investigated and checked off. Not a chance AT stumbled on somebody new all of a sudden, one who happens to have even a remote nexus, that LE hasn't already cleared.

She can't just accuse people.

I assume that's why the judge allowed the seal because they both know that whoever she named is not just innocent until proven guilty but innocent.

Something which can't be said of BK.

JMO

 

[otto]

Playing Devil's advocate here, how do we know that the killer knew the upstairs room was Maddie's or even cared if it was Maddie's? How do we know he didn't try DMs door, find it locked, then went upstairs to kill whoever was there? Everyone seems to assume he cased the house so much he knew everything about everyone, but what if he only knew it was a party house with only women in it and that was good enough?

A thought experiment.

There is a clear view from the road behind the house into Maddie and Kaylee's bedrooms. I don't recall exactly, but did Dateline state that Kohberger had visited the house 23 times? Kaylee had moved out, leaving one person upstairs. As for checking other bedrooms first, why not start with Xana's bedroom, or the bedroom next to the front door? For some reason, he did not do that. He went straight upstairs to the floor where there was Maddie was expected to be alone.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I noticed the Judge issued a Motion Approving the Sealing of the Defense's Offer of Proof Regarding Alternate Suspects.

This is just the court’s Order Sealing Defendants Offer of Proof RE Alternate Perpetrators that Anne Taylor submitted on May 14 (the one that Hippler implied contained no actual proof).

Of course, we didn’t see AT’s motion to seal the offer until after the pre-trial conference started.

I’m worried about the plural—perpetrators. What does she have up her sleeve?

 

[Megnut]

There is a clear view from the road behind the house into Maddie and Kaylee's bedrooms. I don't recall exactly, but did Dateline state that Kohberger had visited the house 23 times? Kaylee had moved out, leaving one person upstairs. As for checking other bedrooms first, why not start with Xana's bedroom, or the bedroom next to the front door? For some reason, he did not do that. He went straight upstairs to the floor where there was Maddie was expected to be alone.

I'm with you.

Maddie.

I can't however entirely rule out multiple murders as a motive, just not the ones he did and how he did them.

If KG had not been there, had EC stayed home, had XK not been hungry, I think he would have murdered MM and perhaps made his way through other rooms. In stealth.

Would he have killed XK, DM, BF too? Quietly, efficiently, none awake until he was already upon them?

Depends how into Bundy he was IMO.

What BK isn't -- an independent thinker, neither novel nor creative.

A pathetic wannabe who didn't even make much adjustment to his 1970s copycat crime. DNA is still DNA and he botched that, but digital forensics is the new DNA and he sunk himself.

DNA, CCTV, CAST -- IMO he should have gone on to kill again but he got caught before he could. He took the time to bury his knife purchase (barely), but then had it sent to himself at his own address, checking on its transit all along the way.

He really ought to give his Master's diploma back.

JMO

 

[otto]

The idea that he intended to SA/rape anyone seems unlikely to me, given the lengths he apparently went to to completely cover himself and leave no trace of DNA behind. JMO

For those who think that was his intent, how do you suppose he would have avoided leaving behind any evidence or DNA? Curious as to how that would even be possible- thanks!

How do we know that he didn't have a plan to kidnap Maddie and take her to an isolated location?

 

[Arkay]

I'm with you.

Maddie.

I can't however entirely rule out multiple murders as a motive, just not the ones he did and how he did them.

If KG had not been there, had EC stayed home, had XK not been hungry, I think he would have murdered MM and perhaps made his way through other rooms. In stealth.

Would he have killed XK, DM, BF too? Quietly, efficiently, none awake until he was already upon them?

Depends how into Bundy he was IMO.

What BK isn't -- an independent thinker, neither novel nor creative.

A pathetic wannabe who didn't even make much adjustment to his 1970s copycat crime. DNA is still DNA and he botched that, but digital forensics is the new DNA and he sunk himself.

DNA, CCTV, CAST -- IMO he should have gone on to kill again but he got caught before he could. He took the time to bury his knife purchase (barely), but then had it sent to himself at his own address, checking on its transit all along the way.

He really ought to give his Master's diploma back.

JMO

At the risk of being tedious, as I know I’ve posted about this several times, I tend to think his object was Maddie.

I do vacillate quite often, though.

My opinion is that we will never know BK’s motivation unless he tells us. Perhaps so much detail will come out in court that the object becomes more clear—Maddie, Kaylee, all of them, or just the easy access to the house itself.

I tend towards Maddie for several reasons, one of which is that he did go to her room first. Kaylee had a new truck, so unless she’d posted it on SM and he saw it, I don’t think he’d expected her to still be at the home.

I do think the motive was sexual. At the risk of sounding pseudo-psychological, I do think the knife was a phallic substitute. Unfortunately, in this case, size does matter.* A MASSIVE knife. For all we know he may have not only been unable to find a partner, but he could have been impotent due to medication or anything else.

*With apologies to the men here


No evidence at all, just speculation.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Finally watching Dateline episode. There's that thing DJ says about BK. They'd met briefly (and somewhat awkwardly, I guess) at the pool party. This DJ somehow runs into BK later, DJ was with a group hiking, BK was alone. The DJ says BK approached him like they were good friends, and the DJ didn't even know who BK was. jmo, that is sounding like a stalker, and like someone who develops "relationships" not based in reality.

Also, okay, Maddie Mogen's friend, the woman who gave MM the job in fashion/at clothing store-- this same woman notes at a different point in the program that she heard about Kohberger specifically from other employees at her clothing store?? Complaining about BK's grading. So... Is this telling me MM was working at the same place as some BK student/s?? That's looking like a little too small a world for me.

The Dateline theory loses me when they talk about XK running frantically down the stairs with BK in pursuit. But there was no yelling up the stairs, no screaming down the stairs? jmo, it's possible, but I would think pretty unlikely.

I may be remembering this wrong, but I think MM used to work at that store but no longer did. This is what I could find in a hurry.

Madison Mogen worked at Marmalade for a summer before interning at CDA Fashion Week with her best friend and roommate, Ashlin Couch. --KXLY

 

[Ghostwheel]

There is a clear view from the road behind the house into Maddie and Kaylee's bedrooms. I don't recall exactly, but did Dateline state that Kohberger had visited the house 23 times? Kaylee had moved out, leaving one person upstairs. As for checking other bedrooms first, why not start with Xana's bedroom, or the bedroom next to the front door? For some reason, he did not do that. He went straight upstairs to the floor where there was Maddie was expected to be alone.

Again, how do we know he went straight upstairs and did not stop at DMs room finding it locked? (That is actually a thing that I wonder about. It would be a reason he would not have noticed her because he had "That room is locked" in his mind.)

I do understand your point, though. It depends on what his real motivation was. A specific target or whatever he could find. And exactly what happened when he arrived in the house. (Door to the original target locked, original target not in their room, someone saw him, someone awake and not expected, etc). If I line up certain things certain ways, I get different answers as to motivation.

BTW, I'm not married to any motivation. I don't discount that it could have been Maddie, or could have been Kaylee, could have been Xana or even could have been DM (and being thwarted at that made him angry). The only one I doubt was motivation was Ethan.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Someone a ways back asked if anyone had read J. Reuben Appelman's book While Idaho Slept. The first 25 or so pages are on Google books. I took a look at it there and downloaded it this morning and finished it. It's from 2023 and focuses on

• the lives of the victims before the murders,
• the family responses,
• the police interactions with various people at the King Road house,
• the early law enforcement process,
• BK prior to the arrest and his background,
• LE discovering the Elantra's trips and the DNA on the sheath;
• the trip from WSU to PA,
• the arrest and the subsequent searches of BK's apartment, car, home, and office at WSU.
• He's very hard on the media and internet conspiracy theorists who accused and doxxed and threatened people they decided were "suspects."

One thing I like about Appleman is that he resists offering theories. He's a reporter, telling a set of interrelated stories. He uses mainstream sources and did original reporting. I was surprised that some of the things I thought were new on Dateline were already in his book, most notably that one of BK WSU colleagues had her home burglarized and LE wondered if he did it,

He doesn't get into the details of BK's internet searches, but he follows the Elantra and the cell phone that goes on and off as BK scouts the house that night, leaves in a big hurry, ends up back in Pullman and goes back to the scene in the morning in a clear way that connects the dots. And more interesting, there's a chapter on what LE found in BK's apartment, in the shower drain, on a bare pillow, on the woodwork, etc. I think that's evidence we won't fully understand until trial. There's also a discussion of paraphilia as it may pertain to BK.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Makes sense - and very likely the prosecution theory: Maddie was the target (there may be evidence he went to the restaurant she worked often when she was working), others were collateral. That theory is explained by the evidence.

Dylan’s door was most likely locked. I’d certainly keep my door locked if my bedroom were right next to a kitchen with an unlocked slider (or one so easy to break into that police found no evidence of forced entry).

Xana worked at the same Greek restaurant as Maddie, so BK could have been targeting both women.

He might have planned to make his way to Xana’s room after taking care of Maddie and Kaylee (I still think he knew Kaylee would be there because of her Instagram posts and Saturday being game night—he didn’t need to recognize her car).

Maybe he had planned to spend a more time with the upstairs women, but he had to pivot and take care of Xana a little ahead of schedule when he caught her snooping on him.

I also think it’s plausible that BK planned to kill Ethan. He had, after all, visited the area 23 times before. And Ethan was in Kaylee’s Instagram photo.

So BK might have expected Ethan to be there, incapacitated due to alcohol after a day of partying. He might have been happy when he saw Ethan’s jeep in the driveway.

Because IMO Bryan Kohberger did not like men, either, at least not the ones who out-competed him for women (the Chads in Incel-speak).

Think about BK’s second encounter with the curly-haired pool party guy, Basseth Salamjohn (interviewed by Dateline—not the DJ, the other one). According to Airmail (via Inside Edition), after Salamjohn‘s brief second encounter with BK, BK abruptly stood up, collected the phone numbers of two bikini-clad women, then walked off. Luckily for the two women, they never heard from him again.

BK was just showing off to Salamjohn. Letting him know he was superior.

IMOO

(I have to tell you, it’s disturbing trying to get into the head of Bryan Kohberger.)

 

[Slamalam]

How do we know that he didn't have a plan to kidnap Maddie and take her to an isolated location?

We don’t, of course.

In that scenario….
Does he render her unconscious and then carry her out of the house?
Or, does he march with her (at knife-point?) down the steps and out of the house together and…?
Force her to get into his car?
Take her keys and take her car?

I keep going back to all of the preparations (and clean up) that he did to ensure no trace of his DNA was left behind and no trace of their DNA was brought with him (no signs of it in his car, etc).

I’m not saying at all that Maddie wasn’t the target, or that perhaps he did or didn’t intend to take her somewhere. I’d find the logistics of the latter interesting considering what we already know … Hmmm.

 

[otto]

Again, how do we know he went straight upstairs and did not stop at DMs room finding it locked? (That is actually a thing that I wonder about. It would be a reason he would not have noticed her because he had "That room is locked" in his mind.)

I do understand your point, though. It depends on what his real motivation was. A specific target or whatever he could find. And exactly what happened when he arrived in the house. (Door to the original target locked, original target not in their room, someone saw him, someone awake and not expected, etc). If I line up certain things certain ways, I get different answers as to motivation.

BTW, I'm not married to any motivation. I don't discount that it could have been Maddie, or could have been Kaylee, could have been Xana or even could have been DM (and being thwarted at that made him angry). The only one I doubt was motivation was Ethan.

I haven't read anything in affidavits stating that the surviving witness had locked her door prior to Kohberger entering the house. Where does that come from ... that her door was locked when she went to bed?

She went to bed and was woken up shortly after 4 a.m. by sounds in the room above her.

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne Seeking Arrest of Bryan C. Kohberger

www.documentcloud.org

 

[otto]

Dylan’s door was most likely locked. I’d certainly keep my door locked if my bedroom were right next to a kitchen with an unlocked slider (or one so easy to break into that police found no evidence of forced entry).

Xana worked at the same Greek restaurant as Maddie, so BK could have been targeting both women. He might have planned to make his way to Xana’s room after taking care of Maddie and Kaylee (I still think he knew she’d be there because of her Instagram posts and Saturday being game night—he didn’t need to recognize her car).

I also thinks it’s plausible that he planned to kill Ethan, too. BK did not like men, either, IMO, at least not the ones who out-competed him with women (the Chads in Incel-speak). BK’s an observer. He knew Ethan would likely be incapacitated that night due to alcohol.

Think about BK’s second encounter with the curly-haired pool party guy, Basseth Salamjohn (interviewed by Dateline—not the DJ, the other one).

According to Airmail (via Inside Edition, Salamjohn says BK abruptly stood up, collected the digits of two bikini-clad women, then walked off. Luckily for the women, they never heard from him again.

BK was just showing off to Salamjohn. Showing his superiority.

Most likely locked doesn't mean locked. Maddie's door was not locked, and neither was Xana's.

 

[Justice101]

Dylan’s door was most likely locked. I’d certainly keep my door locked if my bedroom were right next to a kitchen with an unlocked slider (or one so easy to break into that police found no evidence of forced entry).

Xana worked at the same Greek restaurant as Maddie, so BK could have been targeting both women. He might have planned to make his way to Xana’s room after taking care of Maddie and Kaylee (I still think he knew she’d be there because of her Instagram posts and Saturday being game night—he didn’t need to recognize her car).

I also thinks it’s plausible that he planned to kill Ethan, too. BK did not like men, either, IMO, at least not the ones who out-competed him with women (the Chads in Incel-speak). BK’s an observer. He knew Ethan would likely be incapacitated that night due to alcohol.

Think about BK’s second encounter with the curly-haired pool party guy, Basseth Salamjohn (interviewed by Dateline—not the DJ, the other one).

According to Airmail (via Inside Edition, Salamjohn says BK abruptly stood up, collected the digits of two bikini-clad women, then walked off. Luckily for the women, they never heard from him again.

BK was just showing off to Salamjohn. Showing his superiority.

That pool party interactions story just gives me weirder vibes and more creepiness from BK's standpoint. man, that is weird.

I am actually surprised the girls gave him their phone numbers. Why would you do that to someone you just met for 1 minute??? I would have expected he would be given a fake number or whatever girls do when they don't want to give a man their number that asked.

BK probably went to the other side of the pool and called each of them, saw if they looked at or answered their phone (TO MAKE SURE THEY GAVE HIM A CORRECT PHONE NUMBER), then hang up. That is very creepy.

 

[otto]

We don’t, of course.

In that scenario….
Does he render her unconscious and then carry her out of the house?
Or, does he march with her (at knife-point?) down the steps and out of the house together and…?
Force her to get into his car?
Take her keys and take her car?

I keep going back to all of the preparations (and clean up) that he did to ensure no trace of his DNA was left behind and no trace of their DNA was brought with him (no signs of it in his car, etc).

I’m not saying at all that Maddie wasn’t the target, or that perhaps he did or didn’t intend to take her somewhere. I’d find the logistics of the latter interesting considering what we already know … Hmmm.

Bundy abducted women from their beds and took them to an isolated location. Joanna Yates, same MO. Assuming this was Kohberger's first murder, I would expect that he wanted to spend more time with his victim. Bundy did when he started murdering women. Furthermore, the best way to spend time with the victim without leaving evidence is to take the victim to a separate location.

 

[Slamalam]

Bundy abducted women from their beds and took them to an isolated location. Joanna Yates, same MO. Assuming this was Kohberger's first murder, I would expect that he wanted to spend more time with his victim. Bundy did when he started murdering women. Furthermore, the best way to spend time with the victim without leaving evidence is to take the victim to a separate location.

yeah, that all makes sense. I just wondered logistically how he would do that without getting her DNA in places where it could be found later? JMO.

I hope all of my questions didn’t come across as argumentative. The discussion and speculations are interesting to me.