4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #107

[Sundog]

I’ll have to muster up some respect for a fellow educator, and one who taught at the college level, which I did not.

I suppose the requirements for Criminology are very different from those in the English department and Education department, for which I’ve written theses in both disciplines.

However, I still find it irksome. I see only a checklist, with no original thought, with poor phrasing and not an ounce of fresh insight.

I’m retired now so I’ll have to force myself not to care about the grades given to a stranger, but I’d have given this a D. There is no actual essay, and what is the thesis statement? “I’ll do this, then I’ll do that?” I presume the thesis is along the lines of securing a crime scene, but all in bullet points?

Perhaps this was actually just his outline, and we haven’t seen the essay?

Oh right, I’m training myself not to care…occupational hazard after 25 years of grading essays

JMO

I, also, give the benefit of the doubt to the faculty member who assigned the final exam and graded it according to the requirements of the assignment. It seems to me that no essay was required, that the assigment was to see if the students would be able to list all the steps and actions necessary when undertaking a crime scene investigation. If BK received an A grade, then I assume that he satisfied the requirement and was thorough in his overview.

Also, I don't recall if BK received an A grade for this final exam alone, or if it was the course grade and included the final exam and other assignments for the course throughout the semester.

In any event, writing an essay was not a requirement for this kind of exam, just identifying the key elements of a crime scene investigation in a timed setting, likely a two hour exam. Content mattered, not style.

JMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

Sorry , I need to catch up but what does this mean?

Which part can I help with? Self-authenticating in the vernacular means it speaks for itself. Self-authenticating evidence doesn't require separate testimony or evidence to prove its authenticity. It's video of a car on a certain date. Even if it did require some kind of proof of authenticity, under the rule noted it doesn't need live testimony, a certification of authenticity will be acceptable.

Defense would need to prove these are not self authenticating pieces of evidence if they want to challenge them as such.

The point I saw was that even if the 1112 video was not on the list for self authenticating, it could be used having live testimony to go with it. Not self authenticating, so not on that list. From what I understood reading the various rules of evidence.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Fourth District Judge Steven Hippler ordered prosecutors and defense attorneys on Wednesday to give him a list of everyone - including staffers, law enforcement officers and defense consultants - who might have had access to the previously unreported information about Kohberger's internet search history and other details that were featured in an NBC "Dateline" episode that aired May 9.

The judge said he would be open to appointing a special prosecutor to track down the leak, which likely violated a gag order that has been in place since 2023.

Judge in Bryan Kohberger trial wants to know who leaked information about Idaho student murders investigation

The judge overseeing Bryan Kohberger's upcoming quadruple-murder trial says he wants to identify anyone who may have violated a gag order by leaking information.

www.cbsnews.com

Hmm. What if it could be proven the information was leaked before the 2023 gag order and someone not covered by the gag order held onto it until now? Or Date line sat on it until now?

 

[Megnut]

I’m only on WS, where unlike social media, everything has to pass scrutiny as legitimate, so I am completely ignorant about Brett and just learning about this.

This seems to be the Hail Mary-est of Hail Marys.

At the very last hearing before trial, AT has a tip on an alternate suspect?

Or instead perhaps, at the very last hearing before trial, did she attempt to throw a spanner into the works?

She’s had two years to pursue tips on alleged alternate suspects. Did this dead man leave his DNA on the sheath beneath Maddie? Because Bryan did, and that is indisputable.


IMO

Total spanner.

If there was even kind of a xhance someone else commit this crime, AT would have lead with it, a year ago.

She apparently didn't even name this third party! The judge had to teach her how to write a third party motion.

Will she have the nerve to? Someone with a mental health issue who has no linkage to 1122, no evidence he was anywhere near there, and more, LE would have investigated him, and I'll bet he has something BK does not -- an alibi for 4am on 11/13.

Hippler put AT on notice (actually it's the other defense attorney who has been working on this) -- that they have like a week to name a name and provide actual, admissible evidence that links him in any way to that house, that morning.

Do they even have a table left to pound on?

jmo

 

[otto]

I’ll have to muster up some respect for a fellow educator, and one who taught at the college level, which I did not.

I suppose the requirements for Criminology are very different from those in the English department and Education department, for which I’ve written theses in both disciplines.

However, I still find it irksome. I see only a checklist, with no original thought, with poor phrasing and not an ounce of fresh insight.

I’m retired now so I’ll have to force myself not to care about the grades given to a stranger, but I’d have given this a D. There is no actual essay, and what is the thesis statement? “I’ll do this, then I’ll do that?” I presume the thesis is along the lines of securing a crime scene, but all in bullet points?

Perhaps this was actually just his outline, and we haven’t seen the essay?

Oh right, I’m training myself not to care…occupational hazard after 25 years of grading essays

JMO

I agree 100%. My impression is that it is the finished product. I think his professor should have sent it back to Kohberger for a re-write as unacceptable/ juvenile/ refused. Kohberger should have been told to take himself out of the document, and to use appropriate terms such as "decedent" rather than "the woman". He should have been provided examples of how to produce/ explain a linear-sequential descriptive-process that does not use the phrase "I would do this, then that".

If this was a master level course, he would have received a grade of A, since he had the necessary GPA to be accepted into a PhD program with teaching scholarship.

There are a couple of reasons why he was given a high grade for a document that appears low quality. First, he may have arrogantly intimidated the professor. Second, as mentioned upthread, it may have been during covid and sloppy marking. A third possibility is that his professor decided that anyone who is accepted into a master's degree must be clever, even if that professor can't see it, so they give the high grade to maintain the status quo.

In any case - a man who appears to be a murderer, and who enrolled in criminology courses for the purpose of perfecting crimes, slipped past all his professors and was endorsed as a man who should have authority over other students ... whom he then viewed as prey for his predatory, murderous nature. Fortunately student instincts were intact (complaints), even if faculty instinct was to promote Kohberger.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Thank you for the insights! I wouldn't describe Kohberger as necessarily good at doing school. After reading his paper, I think he must be good at intimidating instructors into giving him the high grade that he wants. The quality of his paper, explaining a linear sequential descriptive process written in first person about "the woman", is juvenile at best.

She is "the woman"; not the victim, the deceased, the decedent, the subject ... consistently: the woman. He is imagining how to commit murder and avoid detection.

"I must use new, clean packaging that was not previously used as to avoid contamination." Redundant. New means clean, new means not previously used. New does not mean absence of contamination, as that can occur at any stage of evidence collection and analysis. What he should say is: To reduce the possibility of contamination, sterile collections containers must be used.

If he planned his murders like he wrote his paper, he has to murder "the woman", to make sure she's dead, she's no longer breathing, she's not moving, she can't walk, as to avoid detection. Disorganized, wordy, redundant and a bit ridiculous. New information that he "carved" the legs of one of his victims is consistent with a spiraling redundant thought of ensuring that he is dead and no longer walking.

I think I was wrong in believing that he targeted one victim. Multiple victim killing was more likely the primary objective, and that fixation blinded him to flaws throughout his pre-planning, stalking, and post-murder decisions. He left so many clues that he ought to have known he would be arrested, but no degrees or years of criminal behaviour education prevented him from making one stupid mistake after the other. His thinking is too immature and disorganized. I doubt he could organize a dinner party without having to go grocery shopping during the meal.

View attachment 586491

Yes, that paper is a dumpster fire. I'm shocked by the use of 1st person. Was this for the master's program? This list should all be "verb first"--Log all evidence, Prepare a letter or transmittal, Use an unopened package. We teach all this to undergrads in our tech writing classes. Referring to the victim as "the woman" makes me wonder if he learned anything because every police report I've ever read talked about the victim or victims.

 

[DisplacedDivaofthe6C]

Yes, that paper is a dumpster fire. I'm shocked by the use of 1st person. Was this for the master's program? This list should all be "verb first"--Log all evidence, Prepare a letter or transmittal, Use an unopened package. We teach all this to undergrads in our tech writing classes. Referring to the victim as "the woman" makes me wonder if he learned anything because every police report I've ever read talked about the victim or victims.

No, I believe from what I saw it was in 2020, 300-level and part of his Bachelors in Crim J.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I am on the spectrum and agree with these points and also do think it's highly probable BK is high on the ASD spectrum, he also has other issues IMO such as combined with high narcissism or even NPD.

It's possible a sense of unfairness and a rage / frustration at the world means he became an 'incel' certainly along the lines of Elliot Rodger, making certain types of people his focal point for hatred (young women? who have it so easy, he thinks?). Plus maybe he was obsessed with his subject matter (serial killers) and went down that rabbit hole where it became an immersive life, he lost contact with reality, combine that with low or zero empathy (not a trait of autism but a trait of lack of extreme narcissism or antisocial personality) and he could have felt that his killing was his 'mission' playing out, what was meant for his life.

I'm curious to know when and why BK became strictly vegan and whether this was for spiritual reasons or other reasons and how he managed in the fish filleting job and how he could deal with stabbing people if he's averse to flesh or harming creatures.

JMO MOO

IMO there is a 0% chance that BK is vegan for ethical reasons. The man cast aside ethics long ago, when he started planning at least one brutal murder.

Perhaps BK has a soft-spot for dogs, which could explain why he spared Murphy. I think it more likely, though, that Murphy was simply lucky that “he isn’t a barker,” as Kaylee’s mother claimed.

The main tenet of an ethical vegan is to do no harm to any sentient being, so how could such a person possibly slaughter four human beings?

 

[DisplacedDivaofthe6C]

Question...

Who here has read Howard Blum's book? J. Reuben Appelman's book?

I'm going to now grab the new one on pre-order - By Vicky Ward and James Patterson, though I prefer audio books.

There's also a 50 page, self-published something...I refuse to call it a book after reading the blurb about the book by a Rebecca Rackley.


Thought...

As this issue continues to unfold with the breach in the sealed materials, in the forward of his book Howard Blum specifically addresses his refusal to pay sources. But, now named as a special correspondent with NBC and Dateline where were his disclaimers?

Also, JMO, I was disappointed in Dateline's various "from a source close to the investigation-esq" type introductions that peppered the entire show with an "in your face" vibe. It pains me to be disappointed with Keith Morrison, but I am. Further found myself incredibly sad the Dateline episode was aired the night before Idaho's graduation where many of the kids involved or close with the victims, extended friend groups, etc. were graduating, to include the surviving Chapin siblings.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Obviously only Bryan would know what was going through his head at that time, but again - the evidence points to a specific target and everything else collateral. Kaylee wasn't sought, she was there with Maddie. Xana wasn't sought, she interrupted him. Ethan wasn't sought, Kohberger kinda stumbled on him when he entered the room while chasing Xana. At least 3 of his victims were happenstance, not something he planned. And whether he saw Dylan or not, he didn't bother with the other two girls in the house.

Now you can say that maybe after he killed Maddie he would have went to the other rooms and such, and of course that is possible, but we have no evidence of that. But I will say that if he planned to kill indiscrimantely, he wouldn't have been so picky. Dylan's room was right ahead of his entrance to the kitchen. It would have been much easier and less risky of him to attack then and there. Another interesting aspect of the target is that he parked right beside the house where Maddie's room would have been visible. And did a number of trips that night checking it out and then leaving before finally going through it. It's highly likely that he was checking out whether the Maddie was still awake.

See, I can believe that Maddie was his first target but I don't see evidence of that or whether that was personal fantasy or just his plan. People just assume that he has a target. The fact that he started on the top floor might mean that was the ONLY room he had really surveilled, based on its location, whether curtains or blinds were drawn, whether lights were out. If a person wanted to go mass murder, though, in that building, starting on the top floor makes some sense because he wouldn't be climbing after the first killing or risking someone walking in on him because they were answering a door or going to the kitchen. Eliminate the people on the top floor, move to the next. And that's what he actually DID. If a killer started on the ground floor or anywhere near an easy door to the outside, he would be more at risk.

I like the hypothesis that he didn't kill DM because he feared she had called 9-1-1; it's also possible that the adrenaline had started to ebb and he was just done, physically and with all the blood, even he had to worry he was leaving evidence of some sort, even bootie footprints in his size.

My thought is not that he wanted to kill "indiscriminately." I think he wanted to kill young women in that house and he actually went at is somewhat methodically, though nothing went to plan and he's not all that smart. My idea of best evidence is what actually happened. If he wanted to kill Maddie and Maddie alone, he could have walked out of the room and left when he saw she wasn't alone. Or he could have killed the two girls and high-tailed it out of there, even if he did run into Xana, just as he left DM when she saw him (assuming he saw her, though). What happened was that he killed four people, not one. And why do a home invasion of a place that was so busy that the whole house was up at 4 am, lights on, cars parked if all he wanted was Maddie? As it was 3 of the 6 occupants were still awake, texting and eating DoorDash when he broke in. These are just my thoughts. Generally, I think what happened tells us most of the story. He broke into a fully occupied house and killed 4 people.

Now if someone can show me he had a shrine to Maddie or Kaylee or both either on his phone or his bedroom wall or his computer or evidence that he was cyberstalking them, I'll be glad to change my mind.

 

[DisplacedDivaofthe6C]

Hmm. What if it could be proven the information was leaked before the 2023 gag order and someone not covered by the gag order held onto it until now? Or Date line sat on it until now?

I've thought of that too.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I have nothing to back this up, totally anecdotal. I could be totally off base.

My children were finishing high school and starting college during the height of COVID. Many course requirements were relaxed, and lots of As were given for effort. Neither of my kids even had to take the SAT.

It makes me wonder if BK, the smartest guy in the room, was able to get where he was pre-murder due to the general relaxation of academic standards at the time. Would that paper be an A now, or 10 years ago?

Moo

That paper wouldn't be an A in my freshman writing class, ever.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I’ll have to muster up some respect for a fellow educator, and one who taught at the college level, which I did not.

I suppose the requirements for Criminology are very different from those in the English department and Education department, for which I’ve written theses in both disciplines.

However, I still find it irksome. I see only a checklist, with no original thought, with poor phrasing and not an ounce of fresh insight.

I’m retired now so I’ll have to force myself not to care about the grades given to a stranger, but I’d have given this a D. There is no actual essay, and what is the thesis statement? “I’ll do this, then I’ll do that?” I presume the thesis is along the lines of securing a crime scene, but all in bullet points?

Perhaps this was actually just his outline, and we haven’t seen the essay?

Oh right, I’m training myself not to care…occupational hazard after 25 years of grading essays

JMO

The other day I spoke with the Criminal Justice chair at my little university about a senior capstone paper that got a 97. It was 20 pages, nearly flawless, on a specific national cybersecurity threat, full APA citation and peer-reviewed or government references. It got a 97 because there were a few comma mistakes: "If it's not perfect, it can't go before a judge." Dude read every one of the thesis papers that closely. I cannot imagine what he would say about that hot mess. Maybe the instructor just check marked for factual items...But BK hadn't even mastered parallel structure on what is essentially a list of bullet points without context.

 

[LinasK]

I would imagine they knew the whole time they were going to bring him up but they brought him up at the last moment because they wanted to see what else they can get to work before they brought up the other suspect.

Yet weren't they saying yesterday that the SODDI was a female?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Ok, now just hear me out. If BK was truly wanting to be a Ted Bundy understudy, and channeling TB in his early days of committing crimes (at least ones he would 'admit' to), I have thought in an alternative theory that MM was his main obsession, and what BK would assume and expect as his main target.

Perhaps he went into the house with the knife armed with the intent to SA poor MM, using the knife as a tool to scare his intended victim and to keep her silent. Not only would the knife be effective in that sense, but it may have been a very arousing and phallic enhancement to BK.

However, when he got there he did not expect to encounter KG also in bed with MM and immediately became unhinged and quite angry lighting the fuse for the stabbing frenzy he then started. Plus the savage and just as deadly beating to the knife attacks he inflicted on KG makes me wonder.

I got to thinking about this scenario after hearing about the "POOR - NO" searches he was making about subjects that were sleeping or restrained in some type of manner. Plus, if he was following Bundy's early MOs--Karen Sparks Epley--TB did beat and assault her with roommates in the house; it has been further theorized one of Karen's male roommates disturbed Bundy in the active throws of the attack, but scared TB enough to get the hell out of Dodge. However, he also SA'd this victim, splitting her bladder amongst other injuries associated with SA.

With Linda Ann Healy she also had roommates, but TB was able to bludgeon her, change her clothes, disguise the bed she was in and finally abscond with the victim.

That seems plausible to me as an explanation of how things escalated if Maddie was the target. I hadn't thought about the earlier Bundy killings. He was a bold killer, although we know of several times he was scared off after spotting a target.

As an aside, in the Chi Omega murders, Bundy did kill 2 girls in one room, but only murdered 4 of the 6 he attacked. He was using a fireplace log or branch, evidently improvising. He was in such a frenzy, he left the sorority house and attacked another young woman.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Yes, that paper is a dumpster fire. I'm shocked by the use of 1st person. Was this for the master's program? This list should all be "verb first"--Log all evidence, Prepare a letter or transmittal, Use an unopened package. We teach all this to undergrads in our tech writing classes. Referring to the victim as "the woman" makes me wonder if he learned anything because every police report I've ever read talked about the victim or victims.

Jumping off here and know I'm going to be in the minority , but how was the request for the paper asked? Did the professor say "The subject of the final paper is 'How would you process a crime scene?'" Or was is "Processing a crime scene"? It matters.

I had some doozy professors who would ask "What do you think was meant when ABC happened" when what they REALLY wanted was what what the prof TOLD us HE/SHE thought. And they'd mark wrong anyone who actually gave their own thoughts.

Was there something out there with the wording for the original assignment? (please and thank you if you have it). I, personally, can't judge how bad the paper is until I know the assignment.

 

[Gigiky]

AT is a day late and a motion short on the Alt suspect claim figuratively speaking. It is such an insult to the intelligence of all the people involved working on this case. The Judge. P, and families. She is a sinking ship and even a layperson can see it. JMO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I recently finished the novel The Frozen River for my bookclub, and the heroine, Martha Ballard (a late-eighteenth century Maine midwife) discussed having to wait until the ground thawed to bury a person.

I wonder if the ground was frozen on November 13 between Moscow and Lewiston, ID, making it difficult for BK to bury his kill kit.

What about the local ponds? Were they already frozen, removing that potential dumping option as well?

Another major character in The Frozen River was unsurprisingly a river—the Kennebec. In the novel’s opening scene, the river starts to freeze, fingers of ice creeping around the face of the murder victim.

Idaho’s Snake River apparently starts freezing in late November, but did it freeze earlier than usual in 2022? Or was it the only option available to BK to rid himself of damning evidence?

 

[gremlin444]

Yet weren't they saying yesterday that the SODDI was a female?

That was someone on here joking/being funny.

 

[cckp72]

Total spanner.

If there was even kind of a xhance someone else commit this crime, AT would have lead with it, a year ago.

She apparently didn't even name this third party! The judge had to teach her how to write a third party motion.

Will she have the nerve to? Someone with a mental health issue who has no linkage to 1122, no evidence he was anywhere near there, and more, LE would have investigated him, and I'll bet he has something BK does not -- an alibi for 4am on 11/13.

Hippler put AT on notice (actually it's the other defense attorney who has been working on this) -- that they have like a week to name a name and provide actual, admissible evidence that links him in any way to that house, that morning.

Do they even have a table left to pound on?

jmo

Exactly what I was trying to say... This is a sad and disgusting tactic from AT.