4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #108

[Boxer]

There's plenty of single and isolated people these days and loneliness is an epidemic in my city, linked to a high suicide rate. Lack of connection and maybe poor social skills.

The anguish that causes the lonely people doesn't generally turn youngsters into killers but it might be something to explain the 'incel' phenomena and the Elliot Rodger scenario?

I think BK, same as Elliot Rodger, had a lot going for him. So there must be something more - or something missing - to explain someone turning to criminal violent horror.

Self-centeredness. Eliot had the sports car and therapy, BK had supportive parents getting him through many troubles.
I see their shared attribute as their complete self assurance that they are right and the world wrong no matter what objective evidence might indicate.

 

[Megnut]

Didn’t Anne Taylor state passionately in court that no victim DNA was found in his car or apartment, that BK had no prior relationship with any of the victims, and that he stalked no one?

I would dissect her sentences carefully, and examine the precise legal definitions of each word she utters in hearings or writes in court documents.

IMO

No stalking, which of course has a legal definition that doesn't probably include victims who don't know they're being vultured.... but I'll grant her that, no stalking. He just circled the house 23 + 5 times like some kind of freakish pterodactyl predator.

No victim DNA in his car or apartment? Maybe not. But what about Murphy DNA? Couple of stray dog hairs? And maybe there was no laborious, time-consuming clean up but a desperate grab for something to enwrap a sharp, bloody knife --

We already know she tried to convince someone, anyone, anyone, Bueller, that BK was driving around that early morning, just not 'over there'.... when in fact he was driving very much over there, within 300'.... but not stopping, she said.... except... his Elantra wasn't picked up on any cameras anywhere between 4:09 and 4:20... so apparently he did stop...

Yeah, I don't think we can trust much of what she says.

Word salad, salad spinner.

JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

He had to wear multiple layers of gloves and remove items (including gloves) inside out. I believe @10ofRods explained the exact process of removing a barrier layer in an early thread.

Also he could have parked up the incline and behind the house, where he wouldn’t be seen from Queen Road. This is what I think he did, and the possible re-enactment photo that I shared in an earlier post supports that LE thinks BK didn’t park right next to the house. Here’s the photo again, with the photographer’s own caption:

View attachment 589782

Source: https://jameskeivom.com/

ETA:

It is possible that LE had no idea where BK parked and were just being conservative since they were doing time trials. Note that BK could have very well left evidence of precisely where he exited from his kill suit. Tire tracks might also be indicative, given how fast he exited the scene.

Thanks for the suggestion to go back and look at @10ofRod's explanation. 10ofRods is one of my favorite people on WS.

 

[SteveP]

IMOO, If you put your hands up to defend yourself, you can deflect a knife. It will also slice anything it touches. Most people really have no concept of what a knife can really do, and if defending yourself I must assume you don't really care about anything except defending yourself.

Spoiler: Hidden For the squeamish

A knife will slice, stab, carve, rip skin. It can bring your insides outside. It can destroy your insides. It can dismember parts of your body. But a slice or stab to the arm will not kill you or keep you from running. Same with a shoulder, parts of the back, parts of the leg. So if in trying to protect herself Xana put her hands up, got her fingers and arms slashed with slices in the HALLWAY where it is darker, maybe even kicked her assailant (possibly more slices/stabs), turned and got stabbed or sliced in the back as she was running, she could still be quite mobile, even if terribly (even mortally) wounded and bleeding. It depends on where the blood is located, how the shadows are, and if DM may have actually seen the blood, but PTSD made her believe she didn't. Your mind will do a lot to protect you.

We have no way of knowing if, or to what extent Xana may have aggressively fought BK, or whether her wounds were all defensive wounds, but a source told Dateline that when BK chased Xana down the stairs, as she tried to get back to her bedroom, "a helluva fight ensued.", and when police arrived at 1122 King Rd, she was found, "lying in a massive pool of blood." We know that Xana was athletic. We also have heard previous reports that her fingers were almost severed, and I choose to think that while trying to fight him off, she was aggressively going after the knife, grabbing at it, trying to get it out of his hand.

I believe that the fight she put up may have helped to save the lives of DM, and maybe BF as well, because I think he had to exert far more energy than he anticipated at that point, killing Ethan and then finishing her off, and he was physically spent after killing the four. JMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

We have no way of knowing if, or to what extent Xana may have aggressively fought BK, or whether her wounds were all defensive wounds, but a source told Dateline that when BK chased Xana down the stairs, as she tried to get back to her bedroom, "a helluva fight ensued.", and when police arrived at 1122 King Rd, she was found, "lying in a massive pool of blood." We know that Xana was athletic. We also have heard previous reports that her fingers were almost severed, and I choose to think that while trying to fight him off, she was aggressively going after the knife, grabbing at it, trying to get it out of his hand.

I believe that the fight she put up may have helped to save the lives on DM, and maybe BF as well, because I think he had to exert far more energy than he anticipated at that point, killing Ethan and then finishing her off, and he was physically spent after killing the four. JMO

Now see, that is interesting to me. How would a source know anyone chased anyone anywhere, much less down the stairs, right next to DMs room? Blood trail? JITB food strewn about? Sounds DM heard but did not open her door for? (why?) Sounds DM heard and opened her door for but didn't see anyone when she got the door open? Sounds DM heard and stood there next to her door listening in fear?

Oh, how much have we are not yet privy to......

 

[PunishThenForgive]

No stalking, which of course has a legal definition that doesn't probably include victims who don't know they're being vultured.... but I'll grant her that, no stalking. He just circled the house 23 + 5 times like some kind of freakish pterodactyl predator.

No victim DNA in his car or apartment? Maybe not. But what about Murphy DNA? Couple of stray dog hairs? And maybe there was no laborious, time-consuming clean up but a desperate grab for something to enwrap a sharp, bloody knife --

We already know she tried to convince someone, anyone, anyone, Bueller, that BK was driving around that early morning, just not 'over there'.... when in fact he was driving very much over there, within 300'.... but not stopping, she said.... except... his Elantra wasn't picked up on any cameras anywhere between 4:09 and 4:20... so apparently he did stop...

Yeah, I don't think we can trust much of what she says.

Word salad, salad spinner.

JMO

You have such a wonderful way with words, @Megnut, and I’ve looked forward to reading your posts ever since I started following this forum two plus years ago.

Your wit, humor, passion, and most of all, your narrative flair, not only honor the victims, but also help everyone here stay the course until Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie—and their families—finally receive the justice they so richly deserve.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

We have no way of knowing if, or to what extent Xana may have aggressively fought BK, or whether her wounds were all defensive wounds, but a source told Dateline that when BK chased Xana down the stairs, as she tried to get back to her bedroom, "a helluva fight ensued.", and when police arrived at 1122 King Rd, she was found, "lying in a massive pool of blood." We know that Xana was athletic. We also have heard previous reports that her fingers were almost severed, and I choose to think that while trying to fight him off, she was aggressively going after the knife, grabbing at it, trying to get it out of his hand.

I believe that the fight she put up may have helped to save the lives on DM, and maybe BF as well, because I think he had to exert far more energy than he anticipated at that point, killing Ethan and then finishing her off, and he was physically spent after killing the four. JMO

ITA!

According to her obituary:

[Xana] was a talented gymnast as a child. She attended Post Falls Middle and High School, where she played volleyball, track and soccer until she graduated in 2020.

Ethan was also a talented athlete, and I bet it was their shared athleticism, gregarious nature and goofy sense of humor that brought them together. I’m glad they got to spend their last moments together, just like Kaylee and Maddie.

I can’t imagine Xana going down without a fight, and Ethan would have helped her if he could. Together they would have been one hell of a match for Mr. Bryan C Kohberger.

IMO

 

[danablue1]

BF had her own bathroom downstairs on the first floor:

Virtual Tour of 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho

Virtual Tour | In the early hours of November 13, 2022, a mass murder took pl... | 1122 King Road

kuula.co

I agree, though, that Bethany would use the second floor bathroom when on that floor.

ETA: Sorry, Steve, I didn’t see your reply until I submitted my own.

0

Thanks for the suggestion to go back and look at @10ofRod's explanation. 10ofRods is one of my favorite people on WS.

can you tell me how to find his explanation thanks!

 

[danablue1]

BF had her own bathroom downstairs on the first floor:

Virtual Tour of 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho

Virtual Tour | In the early hours of November 13, 2022, a mass murder took pl... | 1122 King Road

kuula.co

I agree, though, that Bethany would use the second floor bathroom when on that floor.

ETA: Sorry, Steve, I didn’t see your reply until I submitted my own.

0

Thanks for the suggestion to go back and look at @10ofRod's explanation. 10ofRods is one of my favorite people on WS.

can you tell me how to find his explanation thanks

 

[SteveP]

0

can you tell me how to find his explanation thanks!

I am not the OP, but here is but one post from @10ofRods, from a couple years ago, explaining how BK could have shed his clothing.

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76'

Mar 27, 2023

Thanks for the informative post, as always, 10ofRods. Re your query ^^ BBM ^^ "how he got his bloody gloves off and disposed of them without getting blood on his actual hands":

Maybe this is common knowledge, buy anyway, there's a technique used in many industries that have people handling potentially or actually "dangerous" or "toxic" substances who wear gloves to protect their skin from coming into contact with the substance.

It's referred to as "donning" (putting it on) and "doffing" (taking it off) of personal protective equipment (PPE) (e.g., gloves, mask, goggles...

• 10ofRods

• 

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Self-centeredness. Eliot had the sports car and therapy, BK had supportive parents getting him through many troubles.
I see their shared attribute as their complete self assurance that they are right and the world wrong no matter what objective evidence might indicate.

I agree with you, but I think about the 14-yr old who began to write on Tapatalk. Seeming older than his years in his sadness and resignation, BK was well-aware he didn’t have the same feelings for loved ones, or anyone, and it disturbed him.

Even this quote that I shared earlier that Dateline claims BK saw on a video well after the murders (on December 15, 2022) shows that Kohberger had a self-awareness foreign to the likes of Elliot Rodger:

Something…is wrong with me…I can’t be who I need to be…Something…is wrong with me…Will it last until eternity?

Kohberger knew he had committed unconscionable acts, that he had become a terrible human being, and he knew it was too late to change his course.

Now that he is caught, now that he can’t follow his dark urges, I wish Kohberger would read Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment, and follow Sonia’s admonition:

Go at once, this minute, stand at the crossroads, bow down, first kiss the earth which you have defiled and then bow down to all the world and say to all men aloud, 'I am a murderer! ' Then God will send you life again".

If only—for his parents’ sake, his sisters’ sake, the sake of the victims and their families. For his own sake.

But no, he is lost in a hell of his own making.

IMOO

 

[LetsSolvIt]

I'm thinking that Gray Hughes didn't get the bathroom scene from thin air. I suspect there was some kind of blood evidence in there ( I always have but had nothing to back it up). And a missing towel would fit the "cleanup" re-frame and carrying something in his arms.

Just as a thought, if you (the generic you) feared someone might have called 911, would you be more concerned with them finding you in the house with bloody coveralls on, or finding you outside next to your car trying to get out of them? At what point during the whole debacle is it safer to leave a possible blood trail out the door, or to wrap up your blood trail into a towel, maybe, if you have another something under the kill suit to keep your DNA off everything? Leave the mask on, of course, because hair. I'm just really torn on the standing outside in full view of anyone driving by at 4-4:30 am trying to strip off a bloody kill suit while not getting any cast off on yourself, your car, the ground. If a person double suited to allow removal of the outside suit in preparation, removing it inside would be faster and less observable. But yes, maybe more prone to leaving evidence behind, unless they thought it was mitigated with second suit. I am going to be on the fence on this one. Happens to me a lot.

Edited to fix the fact that I can't get Hugh and Gray in the right order.

Where would Gray Hughes get the bathroom aspect when I don’t think it’s been part of anything like released court documents, a MSM article, or documentary such as Dateline? Are we to believe it? I haven’t watched the GH podcast (everyone says it’s so frieghtening) — did he name a source?

OMO.

Added: did GH just say it was his theory? He was only speculating BK went to bathroom?

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Yes! And by introducing these alternate perpetrators at the very last minute, the only way for LE to investigate further would be for Hippler to delay the trial.

If he were to do this, after each LE investigation cleared an alternate perpetrator, AT could come up with yet another one. The cycle could continue until eventually, the trial would have to take place without a thorough investigation of the latest alternate perpetrator, and AT could eviscerate LE on the stand anyway.

0

can you tell me how to find his explanation thanks

I am not the OP, but here is but one post from @10ofRods, from a couple years ago, explaining how BK could have shed his clothing.

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 76'

Mar 27, 2023

Thanks for the informative post, as always, 10ofRods. Re your query ^^ BBM ^^ "how he got his bloody gloves off and disposed of them without getting blood on his actual hands":

Maybe this is common knowledge, buy anyway, there's a technique used in many industries that have people handling potentially or actually "dangerous" or "toxic" substances who wear gloves to protect their skin from coming into contact with the substance.

It's referred to as "donning" (putting it on) and "doffing" (taking it off) of personal protective equipment (PPE) (e.g., gloves, mask, goggles...

• 10ofRods

• 

That’s the one—by @Twistinginthewind, in reply to @10ofRods! Thank you for finding that, @SteveP. I suggest looking at the original post by @10ofRods as well, plus her own reply in the next post if you’re curious about how BK may have removed his kill suit and gloves.

@danablue1, and anyone who is new to the forum and wants to learn about forensics, please take a look at as many of @10ofRods posts as possible—very enlightening!

You’ll learn a lot from @iamshadow21, as well. She’s amazing.

 

[Boxer]

I agree with you, but I think about the 14-yr old who began to write on Tapatalk. Seeming older than his years in his sadness and resignation, BK was well-aware he didn’t have the same feelings for loved ones, or anyone, and it disturbed him.

Even this quote that I shared earlier that Dateline claims BK saw on a video well after the murders (on December 15, 2022) shows that Kohberger had a self-awareness foreign to the likes of Elliot Rodger:



Kohberger knew he had committed unconscionable acts, that he had become a terrible human being, and he knew it was too late to change his course.

Now that he is caught, now that he can’t follow his dark urges, I wish Kohberger would read Dostoyevsky’s Crime and Punishment, and follow Sonia’s admonition:



If only—for his parents’ sake, his sisters’ sake, the sake of the victims and their families. For his own sake.

But no, he is lost in a hell of his own making.

IMOO

Agree, only a confession, remorse and apology will change anything for the better.

 

[danablue1]

That’s the one!! Thank you for sharing.

@danablue1, and anyone who is new to the forum and wants to learn about forensics, I highly recommend taking a look at as many of @10ofRods posts as possible—very enlightening!

You’ll learn a lot from @iamshadow21, as well

thank you so much you're awesome

 

[Ghostwheel]

Where would Gray Hughes get the bathroom aspect when I don’t think it’s been part of anything like released court documents, a MSM article, or documentary such as Dateline? Are we to believe it? I haven’t watched it (everyone says it’s so frieghtening) — did he name a source?

OMO.

He did not. It was supposed to be an animation of a "possible" way it all happened (take it as speculation). But it did use several rumors in that possibility, one was a stop in the bathroom , one was Xana having gone up the stairs and being chased down. Neither have been confirmed in any court document I am aware of. I take them with a "could be" because so many rumors ended up with at least some truth. I had read about the chair having blood on it in a pattern in keeping with being sat on long before now, but that doesn't mean Dateline's report that the killer sat on the chair is true. Unless there is an actual witness or some other definitive evidence we don't know about yet. But is it possible there is blood on the chair in a pattern in keeping with the killer sitting on it? Sure. Is it possible there are more shoeprints? Sure. Is it possible the killer got a blood spatter in his eye and he went to wash it out? Sure. Is it possible everything that could have gone wrong went wrong for the killer and he had to adlib? You bet.

BTW, frightening is relative. I, personally, found it fairly poorly done, but worth a look see. If you are a person who gets the creeps at the ghost of Christmas future in Mr. Magoo's Christmas carol, definitely stay away. Know if dark scenes insinuating despicable acts when you know what the results were is something you can handle. If not, passing is a fine choice.

For those who did not want to watch, there is a scene in the possible way it happened where the killer stops in the bathroom next to Xana's room. The killer is looking in the mirror and the knife is set on the sink top to the upper right. That has in no way ever been verified. But I found it to be an interestingly specific something to add to the possible scenario.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Now see, that is interesting to me. How would a source know anyone chased anyone anywhere, much less down the stairs, right next to DMs room? Blood trail? JITB food strewn about? Sounds DM heard but did not open her door for? (why?) Sounds DM heard and opened her door for but didn't see anyone when she got the door open? Sounds DM heard and stood there next to her door listening in fear?

Oh, how much have we are not yet privy to......

I have followed the Pike County massacre trials here. The regular posters there are topnotch who were on top of court filings and media sources, as people are here on this thread. Even so, I was shocked by how much we didn't know. Law enforcement isn't just looking for evidence against a killer or a suspect. They look for evidence that shows what happened. And even though the defense is entitled to evidence, it's not entitled to the prosecution's interpretation of that evidence or their theory of what happened and why. So not even the defense knows what law enforcement officers saw that aided their interpretations of the scene.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

He did not. It was supposed to be an animation of a "possible" way it all happened (take it as speculation). But it did use several rumors in that possibility, one was a stop in the bathroom , one was Xana having gone up the stairs and being chased down. Neither have been confirmed in any court document I am aware of. I take them with a "could be" because so many rumors ended up with at least some truth. I had read about the chair having blood on it in a pattern in keeping with being sat on long before now, but that doesn't mean Dateline's report that the killer sat on the chair is true. Unless there is an actual witness or some other definitive evidence we don't know about yet. But is it possible there is blood on the chair in a pattern in keeping with the killer sitting on it? Sure. Is it possible there are more shoeprints? Sure. Is it possible the killer got a blood spatter in his eye and he went to wash it out? Sure. Is it possible everything that could have gone wrong went wrong for the killer and he had to adlib? You bet.

BTW, frightening is relative. I, personally, found it fairly poorly done, but worth a look see. If you are a person who gets the creeps at the ghost of Christmas future in Mr. Magoo's Christmas carol, definitely stay away. Know if dark scenes insinuating despicable acts when you know what the results were is something you can handle. If not, passing is a fine choice.

For those who did not want to watch, there is a scene in the possible way it happened where the killer stops in the bathroom next to Xana's room. The killer is looking in the mirror and the knife is set on the sink top to the upper right. That has in no way ever been verified. But I found it to be an interestingly specific something to add to the possible scenario.

@Ghostwheel, you are the best! Thank you for this summary. I now may take a peak based on your opinions. Really appreciate your taking the time to post all this

 

[pittsburghgirl]

That’s the one—by @Twistinginthewind, in reply to @10ofRods! Thank you for finding that, @SteveP. I suggest looking at the original post of @10ofRods as well, plus her own reply in the next post. Very informative.

@danablue1, and anyone who is new to the forum and wants to learn about forensics, please take a look at as many of @10ofRods posts as possible—very enlightening!

You’ll learn a lot from @iamshadow21, as well. She’s amazing.

I second that emotion re: @10ofRods--and 10ofRods knows about a lot of other stuff, too.

Now, I'm interested in this moment from her post of changing out of the kill suit:

Unless he did all of this, he would have gotten blood on the garbage bag edges, which would have/could have transferred to the trunk or back seat or whatever (which was likely also covered in plastic, just in case). If he was smart, he had a separate bag to put the gloves in, meantime (but needed to handle that bag carefully when putting it into the main disposal bag).

10ofRods tells us quite precisely, and with the care of a scientist, how to avoid getting blood all over the killer's body and car. The key words for me are "unless he did all of this." Did the laborious, exacting process take to long, leading to BK's fast departure in the car? Was he smart enough to have that many pairs of gloves with him? Was he calm enough to do this process carefully? 10ofRods was writing in 2023, when many of us thought he was really smart. I don't doubt that he tried some version of 10's protocol. But he had to be close to an adrenaline crash after murdering 4 people; we wonder now if he let DM live because he was worried police had been called. How likely is it that he was able to follow this protocol perfectly? He left his DNA on the knife sheath when he had nothing but time and safety to clean it.

 

[Cool Cats]

No stalking, which of course has a legal definition that doesn't probably include victims who don't know they're being vultured.... but I'll grant her that, no stalking. He just circled the house 23 + 5 times like some kind of freakish pterodactyl predator.

No victim DNA in his car or apartment? Maybe not. But what about Murphy DNA? Couple of stray dog hairs? And maybe there was no laborious, time-consuming clean up but a desperate grab for something to enwrap a sharp, bloody knife --

We already know she tried to convince someone, anyone, anyone, Bueller, that BK was driving around that early morning, just not 'over there'.... when in fact he was driving very much over there, within 300'.... but not stopping, she said.... except... his Elantra wasn't picked up on any cameras anywhere between 4:09 and 4:20... so apparently he did stop...

Yeah, I don't think we can trust much of what she says.

Word salad, salad spinner.

JMO

Ferris Bueller .... LOL