4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #97

[StarryStarryNight]

This is my point as well. If there is a factual basis for him to reconsider, and the PCA notes that he did update his thinking, there is no Franks issue as the judge knew this. So i don't feel the heat on an evidential level unless you are going to be able to prove the affiant straight up lied and the FBI guy never changed his mind. But i also don't feel it on a policy level. LE put 2+2 together so what is the issue? We want them to make insights like this.

To my mind, the only genuine argument is that the genealogy search is unconstitutional - but as far as the affiant and FBI agent knew at the time, it was constitutional - so in the moment, they didn't do anything wrong on that score either, even if a Supreme Court should later say the opposite.

As we saw with Delphi, these strike me as trial issues, when the defence wants to say that it isn't the defendant's car. But it clearly could be IMO.

Anyway, this all seems highly theoretical until we see the Franks.

Agree.
I think the defense knows this is evidence they should argue in court, and they also know that argument will be weak and probably of no consequence. That is why they are trying to get it all tossed pretrial by the judge. Flowery lawyerspeak to the rescue. Delphi redux.
I doubt it will work. Investigators are allowed to change their minds, with or with out the FBI’s opinion.

 

[Boxer]

Interesting how people interpret differences, so very differently. To me, the differences are like "night and day" - the vehicles are so different and differences so obvious that I could never mistake one vehicle for the other, especially the front array, side profile and rearview. To you, they are negligible. But, in the end, what we think really doesn't matter. What matters is if the vehicle dates were set by the FBI expert or BP AND if the dates were set PRIOR to them knowing about BK's car or not.

Hopefully jury will see understand model cycle years for what they are, auto production years with minor design changes.

 

[Megnut]

If AT had a point, she wouldn't bury it in a thousand pages. She'd make it crystal clear and easy to find.

It's that simple.

JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

It's not glaringly obvious, IMO. Those are still subtle differences that would be hardly noticeable in a moving pixilated image at night. IMO

They were also looking at a video, not clear still photos from auto manufacturers. If he got the make and model correct, from a video, that's more convincing to me than whether he missed the ID by a year. As it was, the expert gave a range of years. There are also differences in trim packages even within the same year; using my Charger analogy, my car has a hemi badge; models with a different engine would not. The side profile, which would be most prominent and consistent regardless of trim packages, is consistent.

 

[Megnut]

They were also looking at a video, not clear still photos from auto manufacturers. If he got the make and model correct, from a video, that's more convincing to me than whether he missed the ID by a year. As it was, the expert gave a range of years. There are also differences in trim packages even within the same year; using my Charger analogy, my car has a hemi badge; models with a different engine would not. The side profile, which would be most prominent and consistent regardless of trim packages, is consistent.

We also don't know what if anything BK may have done to alter the appearance of his vehicle. Like swapping in another license plate or pulling a fuse, disabling fog lights. But the difference in years might have been due straight up to the obscurity caused by theater conditions, movement and speed, video quality, etc.

JMO

 

[TallCoolOne]

If AT had a point, she wouldn't bury it in a thousand pages. She'd make it crystal clear and easy to find.

It's that simple.

JMO

This!!

 

[schooling]

We also don't know what if anything BK may have done to alter the appearance of his vehicle. Like swapping in another license plate or pulling a fuse, disabling fog lights. But the difference in years might have been due straight up to the obscurity caused by theater conditions, movement and speed, video quality, etc.

JMO

He didn't have fog lights equipped on his vehicle according to his model (GLS, base) and the VIN which also accounts for add ons. Those come in higher priced packages. MOO as I am not a car expert.

The black covers that his car would have come equipped with (visible in the images I shared) are there in place of the fog lights. The shapes are distinct. The 2013 has this organic rounded triangle while the 2015 is refreshed with a hockey puck shape. MOO. So it's possible that he may have manipulated that.

I think that the following context is super important to understanding just how similar both cars are and why this is done.

With new models car manufacturers have to start from scratch. It's super expensive. Requires new tooling, software, engines, body parts, training, manufacturing processes, methods, assembly lines, new marketing etc. So BMW popularized updating cars midway through their existence to extend the life of the model and keep them fresh and keep sales going. The key is to keep the body largely the same and to do minimal refreshes. MOO.

But why let me tell it? Here's a great resource (This is 100% related to this case and what the defense is up against)

"There's almost no chance to make significant changes to the exteriors," Edwards says. "And the reason for that is once you change the exterior, the regulatory process has to be gone through again."

Why Mid-Cycle Car Updates Matter | Capital One Auto Navigator

Refreshing a model line helps automakers provide new features — and recoup their investment.

www.capitalone.com

Prosecutors will more than likely point out that the 2015 Hyundai Elantra is merely a refresh of the 2011-2013 models. It's not an entirely new model. It's by all intents and purposes the same car for all of the reasons above (and more) MOO. The 2017 model which is not connected to this case in any way is Hyundai's actual attempt at a new model of the Elantra.

MOO

 

[jepop]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-12092024.pdf

Many new filings listed in case summary. State's objections to Motions to Suppress.

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

 

[Swansee]

Thanks for the update @jepop !
Bummer, looks like they've decided half of these documents are sealed, including the State's objection to the Franks motion. Still leaves a lot to read when the rest will be posted.

 

[INfisherman]

So this is what all the big ta-doo is over? Unreal. I can't believe that there are some who are acting like the differences between the two years are so pronounced.

Another big old nothingburger IMO.......

As I stated a few days ago, the exterior body differences would be limited to plastic components. The photos above are the best representations because perspective is exactly the same in every viewpoint. Previous pictures lacked this & made certain areas appear different when they were not.

 

[wendy44]

Was it ever posted what specifically the defense said was the lie? Was there a transcript or time stamp for that somewhere that identified the lie as the change in the model years?

I've been inclined to think that the defense will argue that the PCA omitted the role of IGG in the investigative process and that's the lie. The PCA says that on 29 November a WSU police officer queried white Elantras registered at WSU. The PCA doesn't say why he made that query. My guess has been that the defense will say he made that query based on the IGG info coming back to Moscow PD and omitting this invalidates the warrants.

But this is just a guess and I could be wrong--it's been stated that the defense identified the lie in testimony--does anyone have that quote or link with a time stamp?

JMO

 

[Boxer]

Was it ever posted what specifically the defense said was the lie? Was there a transcript or time stamp for that somewhere that identified the lie as the change in the model years?

I've been inclined to think that the defense will argue that the PCA omitted the role of IGG in the investigative process and that's the lie. The PCA says that on 29 November a WSU police officer queried white Elantras registered at WSU. The PCA doesn't say why he made that query. My guess has been that the defense will say he made that query based on the IGG info coming back to Moscow PD and omitting this invalidates the warrants.

But this is just a guess and I could be wrong--it's been stated that the defense identified the lie in testimony--does anyone have that quote or link with a time stamp?

JMO

IIRC two officers, one in person noting the white Elantra in graduate student housing parking and another going theough WSU student owned vehicles brought BKs white Elantra to the vehicle to the MPDs attention.

 

[schooling]

Was it ever posted what specifically the defense said was the lie? Was there a transcript or time stamp for that somewhere that identified the lie as the change in the model years?

I've been inclined to think that the defense will argue that the PCA omitted the role of IGG in the investigative process and that's the lie. The PCA says that on 29 November a WSU police officer queried white Elantras registered at WSU. The PCA doesn't say why he made that query. My guess has been that the defense will say he made that query based on the IGG info coming back to Moscow PD and omitting this invalidates the warrants.

But this is just a guess and I could be wrong--it's been stated that the defense identified the lie in testimony--does anyone have that quote or link with a time stamp?

JMO

I suspect (IMO) that the Defense suspects that Detective Payne pressured/encouraged/asked the FBI expert to change the model year of the Elantra to specifically contribute to probable cause for warrants.

And I also suspect (IMO) that AT is more interested in the nature of Det. Paynes conversation with the Pullman officer. And whether or not the IGG was discussed or if he was told that BK was an official suspect.

I also suspect that she doesn’t have what she implies she has. 1) If the on the record communications are so damning why is the judge confused? And 2) if they were so damning she wouldn’t be sniffing around asking about off the record communications in regards to the car, the Pullman LE and the cellular records. I guess the on the record is too standard procedure? JMO.

As far as the testimony Payne, is pretty clear. He provided the specialist with information (pictures from Pullman cameras according to the PCA) that led them to changing the model year. He did not waver. And the defense attempted to impeach his testimony by inundating the judge with a bunch of nada, IMO

I believe “the lie” is that they believe ATs interpretation of events. Which she has provided 0 evidence for. MOO

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I suspect (IMO) that the Defense suspects that Detective Payne pressured/encouraged/asked the FBI expert to change the model year of the Elantra to specifically contribute to probable cause for warrants.

And I also suspect (IMO) that AT is more interested in the nature of Det. Paynes conversation with the Pullman officer. And whether or not the IGG was discussed or if he was told that BK was an official suspect.

I also suspect that she doesn’t have what she implies she has. 1) If the on the record communications are so damning why is the judge confused? And 2) if they were so damning she wouldn’t be sniffing around asking about off the record communications in regards to the car, the Pullman LE and the cellular records. I guess the on the record is too standard procedure? JMO.

As far as the testimony Payne, is pretty clear. He provided the specialist with information (pictures from Pullman cameras according to the PCA) that led them to changing the model year. He did not waver. And the defense attempted to impeach his testimony by inundating the judge with a bunch of nada, IMO

I believe “the lie” is that they believe ATs interpretation of events. Which she has provided 0 evidence for. MOO

MOO

IMO a lie would have to mean that Payne did not actually tell the FBI expert any of this and included a false statement in the PCA. If the expert did in fact change his opinion, whatever the logic, then the PCA is true on it's face.

At least to my way of thinking, this situation is no different than if LE had got up on the defendant via some other inadmissible source (e.g a hearsay/anonymous tip) then proceeded to put together other available evidence to meet the PC standard - something which happens all the time.

it is of course interesting what happens if they use an unconstitutional method. e.g lets assume for a second that the genealogy technique is an illegal search - would that potentially compromise the PC here? IMO no, because they didn't include that material in the PCA, but i can see the policy reason to hold the other way.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Was it ever posted what specifically the defense said was the lie? Was there a transcript or time stamp for that somewhere that identified the lie as the change in the model years?

I've been inclined to think that the defense will argue that the PCA omitted the role of IGG in the investigative process and that's the lie. The PCA says that on 29 November a WSU police officer queried white Elantras registered at WSU. The PCA doesn't say why he made that query. My guess has been that the defense will say he made that query based on the IGG info coming back to Moscow PD and omitting this invalidates the warrants.

But this is just a guess and I could be wrong--it's been stated that the defense identified the lie in testimony--does anyone have that quote or link with a time stamp?

JMO

But IIRC, the timeline does not make that seem possible. I don't have the dates in front of me right now, but we discussed this earlier here somewhere, when someone posted the receipt for the DNA, at the IGG lab.

And that date was roughly the same day as the WSU officer's report about the car. So it appears that the IGG lab had just then received the DNA, so they wouldn't yet have the results back before the WSU officer looked up the parking permit lists.

I'll have to try and find those dates.

 

[INfisherman]

But IIRC, the timeline does not make that seem possible. I don't have the dates in front of me right now, but we discussed this earlier here somewhere, when someone posted the receipt for the DNA, at the IGG lab.

And that date was roughly the same day as the WSU officer's report about the car. So it appears that the IGG lab had just then received the DNA, so they wouldn't yet have the results back before the WSU officer looked up the parking permit lists.

I'll have to try and find those dates.

Does the bill from the IGG lab definitively mean the lab had received the DNA or does it mean the tests had simply been ordered/scheduled for the fastest turnaround possible & avoid potential delays?

 

[mrjitty]

So with the franks sealed, does this mean we won't get an open hearing we can follow on the arguments? Or is this one being mostly televised?

TIA

 

[ginapowell]

I've got a feeling he smoked weed.

 

[Swansee]

So with the franks sealed, does this mean we won't get an open hearing we can follow on the arguments? Or is this one being mostly televised?

TIA

I believe the upcoming hearing is open, if not they usually mention it will be closed.
I honestly don't think this upcoming hearing is a Franks hearing. I think the topics are more likely to be the ones mentioned by @Nila Aella earlier (RSBM):

Motion to Compel
Att Generals offfice appointment
Maybe any discovery issues

jmo

 

[mrjitty]

I believe the upcoming hearing is open, if not they usually mention it will be closed.
I honestly don't think this upcoming hearing is the Franks hearing. I think the topics are more likely to be the ones mentioned by @Nila Aella earlier (RSBM):

Oh sure - i just meant when we finally get the Franks / suppression hearings (if any)