4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #97

[Swansee]

Does anyone know if Law and Crime or Court TV or anyone else have uploaded to the IGG hearing that took place on November 2, 2023 with Bill Thompson and Anne Taylor via Zoom with Judge John Judge in the court room? Thank you
P.S. I'm asking because I'm looking to see who else has video of it besides Brian Entin. Thank you

A few YouTubers streamed it at the time, although I guess that hearing didn't get too many views so the algorithm buried it. The audio is really awful, especially in the beginning, but yes it's out there.
By the way, thanks for bringing that hearing up. I rewatched just now and heard AT mention something I hadn't noticed before. Hope you find an MSM link so we can discuss it here with timestamps.

 

[PinkParis2052]

A few YouTubers streamed it at the time, although I guess that hearing didn't get too many views so the algorithm buried it. The audio is really awful, especially in the beginning, but yes it's out there.
By the way, thanks for bringing that hearing up. I rewatched just now and heard AT mention something I hadn't noticed before. Hope you find an MSM link so we can discuss it here with timestamps.

The sound was pretty good for this hearing, I had no problems hearing JJJ, Anne T., Bill T and Jeff Nye. But thank you for your help. I'm not talking about the hearing with the four experts for the defense that was in Aug 2023.

 

[PinkParis2052]

A few YouTubers streamed it at the time, although I guess that hearing didn't get too many views so the algorithm buried it. The audio is really awful, especially in the beginning, but yes it's out there.
By the way, thanks for bringing that hearing up. I rewatched just now and heard AT mention something I hadn't noticed before. Hope you find an MSM link so we can discuss it here with timestamps.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll look tonight.

 

[katydid23]

MOO

That's the problem. His 'touch DNA' on a moveable object does not prove he was ever in the house. That may be an unpopular statement but it's true if you now how touch DNA works.

Just an opinion.

That does not ring true. This was SINGLE SOURCE male DNA on the snap of the knife sheath, found under a dead body.

Single Source means it was only his DNA. If it was transferred then you'd expect the DNA of the transferrer would be there too. But there was no other DNA found there except his.

I don't think it can be explained that easily.

 

[Nila Aella]

Case Summary Page

12/18/2024 Stipulation Stipulated Motion to Seal State's Motion to Extend No Contact Orders and Amended No Contact Orders
12/18/2024 Motion to Extend No Contact Orders
12/18/2024 No Contact Order DM
12/18/2024 No Contact Order BM, KC
12/18/2024 No Contact Order SC, JC, HC, MC
12/18/2024 No Contact Order KG, AG, AG, SG, LL, CG
12/18/2024 No Contact Order JK, JK
12/18/2024 No Contact Order KL, SL
12/18/2024 No Contact Order BF
12/18/2024 Stipulation Stipulated Motion to Seal State's Supplemental Response to Request for Discovery Regarding Expert Testimony
12/18/2024 Response to Request for Discovery SEALED State's Supplemental Response to Request for Discovery Regarding Expert Testimony
01/23/2025 Motion Hearing (9:00 AM) (Judicial Officer: Hippler, Steven)

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-12192024.pdf

 

[mrjitty]

That does not ring true. This was SINGLE SOURCE male DNA on the snap of the knife sheath, found under a dead body.

Single Source means it was only his DNA. If it was transferred then you'd expect the DNA of the transferrer would be there too. But there was no other DNA found there except his.

I don't think it can be explained that easily.

And in any event - how could you explain secondary transfer?

At the time the sample was analysed, BK was not a suspect - so no contamination

What would be the vector for innocent transfer? he would have had to come in contact with 'the real killer' - or at least a spec of his cellular material did. Struggling to believe that.

You could of course believe that the DNA of some rando is found on an item of evidence - we've seen that before in other cases e.g the person who boxed the item at amazon or something like that. Perhaps a cohabiter of the killer for example. But one struggles to believe this sort of theory when other circumstantial evidence also links him.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And in any event - how could you explain secondary transfer?

At the time the sample was analysed, BK was not a suspect - so no contamination

What would be the vector for innocent transfer? he would have had to come in contact with 'the real killer' - or at least a spec of his cellular material did. Struggling to believe that.

You could of course believe that the DNA of some rando is found on an item of evidence - we've seen that before in other cases e.g the person who boxed the item at amazon or something like that. Perhaps a cohabiter of the killer for example. But one struggles to believe this sort of theory when other circumstantial evidence also links him.

At a wild reach:

If there was cross contamination it would have meant that BK had been in contact with something (an instrument or surface) that could rub his DNA on to the sheath at the site of the people conducting the testing of the sheath;

Or that his DNA had been deliberately planted by someone within the chain of testing;

Or 'the real killer' deliberately put a bit of BK's DNA where he knew it would be found;

Or BK had in any way handled the knife at some point in time prior the killing that then belonged to 'the real killer' who had rigorously cleansed it but missed a bit.

Unlikely scenarios bearing in mind everything else we know.

 

[schooling]

And in any event - how could you explain secondary transfer?

At the time the sample was analysed, BK was not a suspect - so no contamination

What would be the vector for innocent transfer? he would have had to come in contact with 'the real killer' - or at least a spec of his cellular material did. Struggling to believe that.

You could of course believe that the DNA of some rando is found on an item of evidence - we've seen that before in other cases e.g the person who boxed the item at amazon or something like that. Perhaps a cohabiter of the killer for example. But one struggles to believe this sort of theory when other circumstantial evidence also links him.

Maybe BK could spend the rest of his life trying to find the ‘real killer’? JMO

IMO There is no reasonable explanation for secondary transfer. Any speculation ends in either mass conspiracy or an improbable calamity of coincidences.

MOO

 

[Swansee]

Re:secondary transfer,
The Lukis Anderson case has been mentioned here before. These things do happen (see also Amanda Knox). This article has been linked several times:

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

www.forbes.com

In Lukis Anderson's case, his lawyer was able to trace back how her client's DNA ended up under the victim's fingernails.
Here however, I don't see any indication of the Defense investigating such circumstances. They appear to be focused on technical aspects of SNP profiles and IGG protocols. But surprises may still be in store in the coming months.

 

[Nila Aella]

Re:secondary transfer,
The Lukis Anderson case has been mentioned here before. These things do happen (see also Amanda Knox). This article has been linked several times:

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

www.forbes.com

In Lukis Anderson's case, his lawyer was able to trace back how her client's DNA ended up under the victim's fingernails.
Here however, I don't see any indication of the Defense investigating such circumstances. They appear to be focused on technical aspects of SNP profiles and IGG protocols. But surprises may still be in store in the coming months.

The Frontline documentary on this case goes into more detail. Once they realized LA was somewhere else, both the D and lead investigator tried to figure out how his DNA got on the fingernail. The Lead investigator EL found the connection. jmo

BKs defense (JL) did state this:

D Objection to protective Order 6/22/2023

What the State’s argument asks this Court and Mr. Kohberger to assume is that the DNA on the sheath was placed there by Mr. Kohberger, and not someone else during an investigation that spans hundreds of members of law enforcement and apparently at least one lab the State refuses to name.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

jmo

RBBM RSBM.

Just on the alibi. I think that's incorrect to assume the alibi as stands has passed scrutiny by the court and has been accepted as is. It clearly does not comply with Idaho court rules. Jmo

On 26 April the prosecution made a motion for court to disallow D any more additional time to comply with ICRs and to limit testimony in an alibi defense to the defendant only. Alibi clearly lacked the necessary specificity and not possible for P to rebut. JJJ had given extensions of time and leeway in orders, with D's assurance they would comply with ICRs. April this year was supposed to be final deadline for that to happen. Jmo

The P noted they could not even rebut the alibi claims because D had not said where BK.was at the time of crime.

I believe JJJ was leaving the Alibi decision until after other hearings, including MTC at end of May, and I believe he fully expected D to comply with specificity down the track. Imo he used discretion to informally extend D's deadline by putting P's motion on hold. He considered it non urgent at the time. IOWs he put it on the back burner. In the meantime change of venue and change of Judge occurred. All Jmo.

I agree Hippler is aware but do not agree it's been okayed by him. The P will raise the issues with him if not so already.


26th April 2024 State's response to notice of alibi.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/042624-Response-Notice-Defendants-Supplemental-Response-Alibi-Demand.pdf

IMO it is possible they handled this during the closed MTC hearing (5/30).
One order was never posted to the Cases of Interest page.

Summary page
06/14/2024 Order (Judicial Officer: Judge, John ) Order on Defendant's 4th and 5th Motions to Compel Discovery (Redacted)

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-12192024.pdf

This is the only order we saw from those MTC hearings
06/07/2024 Order (Judicial Officer: Judge, John ) Second Amended Order for Disclosure of IGG Information and Protection Order

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/2024/060724-Second-Amended-Order-Disclosure-IGG-Info-PO.pdf

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Re:secondary transfer,
The Lukis Anderson case has been mentioned here before. These things do happen (see also Amanda Knox). This article has been linked several times:

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

www.forbes.com

In Lukis Anderson's case, his lawyer was able to trace back how her client's DNA ended up under the victim's fingernails.
Here however, I don't see any indication of the Defense investigating such circumstances. They appear to be focused on technical aspects of SNP profiles and IGG protocols. But surprises may still be in store in the coming months.

Remember in the Knox case no secondary transfer was ever proven - it was a possibility used to raise doubt about the reliability of the DNA matches. But that is a case where all of them had been in the same house.

I really don't see how such a theory can be remotely in play here.

 

[Nila Aella]

Cases of Interest page

12/13/2024 Defendants 20th Supplemental Request for Discovery
12/18/2024 Stipulated Motion to Seal States Motion to Extend/Amend No Contact Orders
12/18/2024 Stipulated Motion to Seal States Supplemental Response to Request for Discovery

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

 

[Tricia]

Dear Websleuths members and guests.
Let's keep those awful, obnoxious advertisements off of Websleuths.
You can help by becoming a subscriber to DNA Solves.com. Even 5 or 10 dollars a month would make a difference.
Those ads made me sick to my stomach, but they were necessary. Now, we can keep them off Websleuths.
Find out how you can become a subscriber to DNA Solves.com by CLICKING HERE.
Do not comment on this thread. CLICK HERE to ask questions and to learn more

 

[schooling]

Re:secondary transfer,
The Lukis Anderson case has been mentioned here before. These things do happen (see also Amanda Knox). This article has been linked several times:

Framed By Your Own Cells: How DNA Evidence Imprisons The Innocent

Tiny amounts of touch-transferred DNA have placed people at locations they had never visited and implicated people for crimes they did not commit.

www.forbes.com

In Lukis Anderson's case, his lawyer was able to trace back how her client's DNA ended up under the victim's fingernails.
Here however, I don't see any indication of the Defense investigating such circumstances. They appear to be focused on technical aspects of SNP profiles and IGG protocols. But surprises may still be in store in the coming months.

I was trying to quote @Nila Aella post to continue that conversation but couldn't wrangle the quote in wihtout breaking the quote box.

In the Knox case they legitimately had claim to the house. Holtzclaw had 13 other accusations including many that arrived independently of each other including a connection to one from a decade earlier.

I do agree that the case against Lukis is a good example of how we shouldn't rely solely on DNA to convict someone.

IMO, without DNA LG-MS PD had no case against Lukis.

In Moscow, without the DNA, their case is obviously weaker. But IMO it's still stronger than the one just argued against Richard Allen in Delphi (who I also believe did it)

MOO

 

[NCWatcher]

Madison's Mother Karen Laramie said on Today show:
"I feel like the legal system is not about the victims, and I'll leave it at that."

A dignified, remarkably self-constrained statement for a homicide victim's parent. imo
Applauding her for it and for creating Made with Kindness Foundation, in honor of her daughter and her friends. imo


Dec. 18

Idaho murder victim's mom breaks silence about suspect Bryan Kohberger

The mother of one of the Idaho Murder victims, Madison Mogen, has broken her silence for the first time with a blunt message about suspected killer Bryan Kohberger.

www.dailymail.co.uk

She seems unhappy that it's true but she's quite right "the legal system is not about the victims" (or their families.) I wish more relatives of crime victims understood that. Based on things they've said, I'm quite sure several parents in this case absolutely do not understand that. They've said they believe they should be consulted by the DA regularly & seem to think they should have a "vote" in how the state approaches the case. Further, certain events & rulings likely have been even more upsetting to them than they would have been had they realized the criminal case isn't really about the victims nor is it about helping their survivors.

The prosecution represents the state, all of us, our society as a whole...not the victims' families specifically. And the crime is prosecuted because it was a crime against the state. Ideally, prosecuting crime will tamp down private vigilantism and will promote a more orderly society. And while some survivors may achieve healing/"closure" from witnessing a successful prosecution, that's not the purpose of a prosecution. (At least one parent alleged the trial should not have been moved because the town of Moscow needed [& deserved] the healing a local trial would provide-- so for some relatives, even the town's perceived need trumps any Constitutional rights/due process arguments.) And while neither the defense nor the state would be well-served by trashing the 4 dead students in this case, "protecting the victims" can't be a goal in court the way it is on WS. I'm afraid some parents don't understand that and will be distressed by some testimony.

I do wonder how much "parental commentary" we'll hear during the trial. The pre-trial gag order didn't apply to relatives and while the judge (& both sides, albeit for different reasons) might hope that sort of commentary would be minimized, I wouldn't think the relatives' silence could be legally mandated. I'm not an attorney though.
MOO

 

[Swansee]

Thanks @Nila Aella , I'd forgotten about that quote from AT! So I guess post-crime contamination of the sheath ls definitely still on the table for the Defense. The only option they've never brought up is pre-crime transfer.
It's very interesting to me because IMO this would imply that, in spite of the warrants, there is no actual record of BK purchasing a Kbar knife. If there was, the defense would not be able to argue any form of post-crime contamination at all. They'd be stuck with, yes that was his knife but he gave it to someone/it was stolen, which they've never hinted at.
@schooling I didn't follow Delphi, so can't really compare, but IMO the DNA is absolutely critical for the Prosecution in the Idaho 4 case. If that somehow is either excluded or successfully argued against in court, the case against BK becomes much more tenuous and circumstantial. However I don't see this particular MTS being successful unless there's a major wrongdoing the defense has uncovered which we haven't been privy to.

I can't find a MSM version of the November 2 2023 hearing we were discussing with @PinkParis2052 but at one point when they're discussing giving the Defense a log of the things the judge will see in camera, AT mentions one of the things she wants to check is that "the FBI complied with the requirements of Myfamilytree".
I'm pretty sure she must have misspoke and was referring to FamilyTreeDNA? Could this be the genealogy site BK would have used when he did his own DNA ancestry test?

 

[Nila Aella]

Thanks @Nila Aella , I'd forgotten about that quote from AT! So I guess post-crime contamination of the sheath ls definitely still on the table for the Defense. The only option they've never brought up is pre-crime transfer.
It's very interesting to me because IMO this would imply that, in spite of the warrants, there is no actual record of BK purchasing a Kbar knife. If there was, the defense would not be able to argue any form of post-crime contamination at all. They'd be stuck with, yes that was his knife but he gave it to someone/it was stolen, which they've never hinted at.

The last Amazon warrant (3/26/23) was submitted to the Court 9/8/23 which was after the Objection to Protective Order on 6/22/23.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/090823-Order-to-Seal-and-Redact-Amazon.pdf

jmo

@schooling I didn't follow Delphi, so can't really compare, but IMO the DNA is absolutely critical for the Prosecution in the Idaho 4 case. If that somehow is either excluded or successfully argued against in court, the case against BK becomes much more tenuous and circumstantial. However I don't see this particular MTS being successful unless there's a major wrongdoing the defense has uncovered which we haven't been privy to.

I can't find a MSM version of the November 2 2023 hearing we were discussing with @PinkParis2052 but at one point when they're discussing giving the Defense a log of the things the judge will see in camera, AT mentions one of the things she wants to check is that "the FBI complied with the requirements of Myfamilytree".
I'm pretty sure she must have misspoke and was referring to FamilyTreeDNA? Could this be the genealogy site BK would have used when he did his own DNA ancestry test?

MFT is the largest collection of public family trees online at FS.org.
People have MFT accounts to go explore the family trees.
Not sure if that was what AT was referring to?
jmo

 

[Kemug]

So BK may not care if he gets a death sentence or not? Given his apparently weird mental make-up, I can well believe that. And if that is the case, it shows how little he cares about his family, especially his parents. Does he not consider how his execution would affect them? Surely nothing could be worse for the parents.

 

[Swansee]

MFT is the largest collection of public family trees online at FS.org.
People have MFT accounts to go explore the family trees.
Not sure if that was what AT was referring to?
jmo

Aha! Interesting, I didn't know that, I assumed it would be one of the DNA based services... Hope we'll be hearing about that again in the future and it will be clearer.

 

[Gemmie]

She seems unhappy that it's true but she's quite right "the legal system is not about the victims" (or their families.) I wish more relatives of crime victims understood that. Based on things they've said, I'm quite sure several parents in this case absolutely do not understand that. They've said they believe they should be consulted by the DA regularly & seem to think they should have a "vote" in how the state approaches the case. Further, certain events & rulings likely have been even more upsetting to them than they would have been had they realized the criminal case isn't really about the victims nor is it about helping their survivors.

The prosecution represents the state, all of us, our society as a whole...not the victims' families specifically. And the crime is prosecuted because it was a crime against the state. Ideally, prosecuting crime will tamp down private vigilantism and will promote a more orderly society. And while some survivors may achieve healing/"closure" from witnessing a successful prosecution, that's not the purpose of a prosecution. (At least one parent alleged the trial should not have been moved because the town of Moscow needed [& deserved] the healing a local trial would provide-- so for some relatives, even the town's perceived need trumps any Constitutional rights/due process arguments.) And while neither the defense nor the state would be well-served by trashing the 4 dead students in this case, "protecting the victims" can't be a goal in court the way it is on WS. I'm afraid some parents don't understand that and will be distressed by some testimony.

I do wonder how much "parental commentary" we'll hear during the trial. The pre-trial gag order didn't apply to relatives and while the judge (& both sides, albeit for different reasons) might hope that sort of commentary would be minimized, I wouldn't think the relatives' silence could be legally mandated. I'm not an attorney though.
MOO

Well said and OH SO TRUE!!! I wish more family of murder victims could understand what you said. Not sure if it would actually help them, because what you stated is factual, and what they are experiencing is emotional (understandably, but it's hard to put aside your emotions to grasp the facts about our system).