4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

[MassGuy]

None of the articles I've seen ever say it is complete and none say it was partial. IMO the reason for that is likely because it was partial. IF it was on the brass snap as many here claim, there is absolutely no chance it was anything other than a degraded sample having sat on the brass snap for many days after the sheath was found - remember ISL didn't even look at the sheath until 4 or 5 days after the murders.

All, JMO.

Again, the statistical match probability alone answers the question. There is no need to be redundant.

Everyone understands what 5 octillion to one means. Or should at least.

 

[Nila Aella]

If there was an Unknown male B Blood (railing) 138:04
And an unknown male D blood (glove) 1:40:12

Doesn't that mean there is an A and a C sample?

JMO

 

[wendy44]

None of the articles I've seen ever say it is complete and none say it was partial. IMO the reason for that is likely because it was partial. IF it was on the brass snap as many here claim, there is absolutely no chance it was anything other than a degraded sample having sat on the brass snap for many days after the sheath was found - remember ISL didn't even look at the sheath until 4 or 5 days after the murders.

All, JMO.

If it's not his DNA how does he have standing for the 4th Amendment challenge?
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

None of the articles I've seen ever say it is complete and none say it was partial. IMO the reason for that is likely because it was partial. IF it was on the brass snap as many here claim, there is absolutely no chance it was anything other than a degraded sample having sat on the brass snap for many days after the sheath was found - remember ISL didn't even look at the sheath until 4 or 5 days after the murders.

All, JMO.

It was complete or it wouldn't be 5.37 octillion times more likely to be BK's DNA and AT wouldn't be so scared of it bending over backwards to get it thrown out.

Instead she would write Motion after Motion and depose witness after witness trying to prove the DNA is not reliable or contaminated or planted or only partial or not collected properly or not stored properly or the Idaho States Lab is incompetent and made numerous errors.

2 cents

 

[wendy44]

JMO. From what I understand the DNA was not originally found when the sheath was examined, then in a second examination ISL found the DNA, and ran it through CODIS but didn't get a hit. The person might not have been in CODIS, the sample could be contaminated and therefore, no match was possible or it was degraded and therefore, again, no match was possible. At any rate ISL didn't get a name from CODIS. JMO.

SBM--we talked about this before--I believe you misread the article and misunderstood the video. It wasn't that the lab wasn't able to pull the DNA, it was that they weren't able to make a match and so it was sent to Othram. Unless you have another article or video than the ones you cited previously, it's not accurate to say that the DNA was not originally found when the sheath was examined.

Bryan Kohberger defense gets boost over knife sheath DNA—Attorney

Journalist Howard Blum says Idaho investigators sent a knife sheath left at the murder scene to be tested by a startup in Texas.

www.newsweek.com

JMO

 

[Arkay]

All MOO.

IMO, it must have been a partial DNA sample - especially if it was on the button on the sheath which is made of brass which contains 60% copper which degrades DNA on contact. The problem with touch DNA is that it has a high rate of false positives due to contamination.

Touch DNA

Free Consultation - Call 800-401-1583 - Philip D. Cave is dedicated to serving our clients with a range of legal services including Military Law and Court-Martial cases. Touch DNA - US Military Law Lawyer

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JMO. From what I understand the DNA was not originally found when the sheath was examined, then in a second examination ISL found the DNA, and ran it through CODIS but didn't get a hit. The person might not have been in CODIS, the sample could be contaminated and therefore, no match was possible or it was degraded and therefore, again, no match was possible. At any rate ISL didn't get a name from CODIS. JMO.

IMO. So the thought was to use IGG to reverse into an identification of the family of the killer and then find the killer's name from the family group. IGG usually leads to thousands of people and then they have to wade through all of these people to find people who could be suspects. This usually results in a pool of suspects, each which must be looked at in great detail. A lot of this process is research and the opinion of the researcher as to whether each suspect could be a fit. For example, they exclude people who were too young to have committed the crime. Sometimes, the IGG researcher is lucky and the name of the suspect turns out to be someone LE was looking at back at the beginning of the case. Sometimes there needs to be a deep dive into multiple suspects. In a current criminal case like this, this has never been done before. It has been done in historic cold cases with some success and used to identify the remains of Jane Doe's and John Doe's. However, based on what AT said at the hearing, Othram was not able to do anything with the DNA. There has to be a reason for that. And I think the most likely reason is that the DNA was degraded or contaminated. Othram's IGG process usually takes 6 weeks or more. But after 1 week, the FBI took the DNA from Othram and somehow came up with an IGG AND a suspect in 1 week. Suspicious? I would say so. JMO.

BK had sent his DNA into a database for ancestry research purposes...

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

...and apparently opted out of LE using his DNA. According to what AT said at the hearing last week, BK's name came up via the FBI going into databases they should not have been going into and violating their own policy and not keeping records, behind the scenes and in secret. Prior to that time MPD Detectives had never heard the name BK.

Above comments are made at around 1:23 in the video
JMO

The problem with all of this is that if the DNA was degraded and/or contaminated, then it could easily point to the wrong suspect. And IMO, that may be what has happened in this case.

All JMO.

I understand that you feel that the DNA could be inaccurate, (copper, partial, degraded in your opinion) and that you also feel the FBI obtained this information extra-legally. Naturally, you’re entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is vastly different.

I see DNA identification as one of the greatest discoveries ever made.

Had there been past knowledge of its existence as well as how to interpret it, Scotland Yard would have caught Jack the Ripper, U.S. LE would have identified the Zodiac Killer, etc. etc. etc.

IMO it’s a great blessing that we live in an age where a microscopic amount of biological material can and does lead to identifying criminals of all kinds.

From my point of view, these matches in the octillions of accuracy are worth more than if Bryan (or any suspect) left a handwritten note declaring “ I’m Bryan Kohberger and I killed these four students,” because that could be alleged to have been forged.

I’ve no doubt that sometime in the future world, scientists and criminologists will look back at these days and think we were just in the primitive infancy of DNA, just like we now look back at how germ theory was once unknown and eventually was established enough to protect so much of the world’s population.

Obviously this is merely my opinion, but it is based on the accepted science. Personally I am relieved that the FBI did what it needed to do to catch a quadruple murderer. That to me is the greater good.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

If there was an Unknown male B Blood (railing) 138:04
And an unknown male D blood (glove) 1:40:12

Doesn't that mean there is an A and a C sample?

JMO

In one of their motions, the defense referenced 3 unknown profiles, (all of which were apparently so degraded they couldn’t be put into CODIS).

Kohberger might be known A, and the rest are those ones the defense alluded to.

So railing, glove, and somewhere else (probably in the house).

 

[Cool Cats]

I understand that you feel that the DNA could be inaccurate, (copper, partial, degraded in your opinion) and that you also feel the FBI obtained this information extra-legally. Naturally, you’re entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is vastly different.

I see DNA identification as one of the greatest discoveries ever made.

Had there been past knowledge of its existence as well as how to interpret it, Scotland Yard would have caught Jack the Ripper, U.S. LE would have identified the Zodiac Killer, etc. etc. etc.

IMO it’s a great blessing that we live in an age where a microscopic amount of biological material can and does lead to identifying criminals of all kinds.

From my point of view, these matches in the octillions of accuracy are worth more than if Bryan (or any suspect) left a handwritten note declaring “ I’m Bryan Kohberger and I killed these four students,” because that could be alleged to have been forged.

I’ve no doubt that sometime in the future world, scientists and criminologists will look back at these days and think we were just in the primitive infancy of DNA, just like we now look back at how germ theory was once unknown and eventually was established enough to protect so much of the world’s population.

Obviously this is merely my opinion, but it is based on the accepted science. Personally I am relieved that the FBI did what it needed to do to catch a quadruple murderer. That to me is the greater good.

JMO

Thread 'Othram - General Discussion - #3'

Aug 19, 2020

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THREAD #1
THREAD...

• MadMcGoo
• Replies: 1,409
• Forum: General Information & Discussion

• 

 

[Cool Cats]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

I think this odds ratio will be clear to the jury or no point in using DNA if juries have to practically take classes to understand odds ratios. Sounds like a way to confuse a jury.

2 Cents

 

[wendy44]

SBM

IMO. So the thought was to use IGG to reverse into an identification of the family of the killer and then find the killer's name from the family group. IGG usually leads to thousands of people and then they have to wade through all of these people to find people who could be suspects. This usually results in a pool of suspects, each which must be looked at in great detail. A lot of this process is research and the opinion of the researcher as to whether each suspect could be a fit.

This is not a good characterization of how IGG works (am experienced with amateur genetic genealogy).
JMO

However, based on what AT said at the hearing, Othram was not able to do anything with the DNA. There has to be a reason for that. And I think the most likely reason is that the DNA was degraded or contaminated. Othram's IGG process usually takes 6 weeks or more. But after 1 week, the FBI took the DNA from Othram and somehow came up with an IGG AND a suspect in 1 week. Suspicious? I would say so. JMO.

I can give an educated guess--Othram's database didn't have enough close matches to build a tree. They're new and don't have the large number of kits that other databases have. There's no set "usual" time--it's completely dependent on the matches.
JMO

BK had sent his DNA into a database for ancestry research purposes...

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

...and apparently opted out of LE using his DNA. According to what AT said at the hearing last week, BK's name came up via the FBI going into databases they should not have been going into and violating their own policy and not keeping records, behind the scenes and in secret. Prior to that time MPD Detectives had never heard the name BK.

Above comments are made at around 1:23 in the video
JMO

For clarification, it was said at the hearing that BK's profile was not found in any of the databases used by the FBI. We have no idea if BK ever actually did this or not.
JMO

The problem with all of this is that if the DNA was degraded and/or contaminated, then it could easily point to the wrong suspect. And IMO, that may be what has happened in this case.

All JMO.

None of what you wrote or cited supports that the DNA was degraded and/or contaminated and could easily point to the wrong suspect.
JMO

 

[INfisherman]

Sounds to me like it might be another "the defense says it’s this therefore it’s a fact" type of debate…again.

MOO

 

[wendy44]

SBM

Instead, the FBI apparently got into the private side of the DNA database BK put his DNA into. At least this is what AT is alleging.

No, she did not allege this. It was said in court that the FBI did not access any database with BK's profile in it.

And what are we to think? It takes Othram 6 weeks to do IGG. They are considered one of the best labs in the world for this. No way could the FBI do IGG in 1 week and there is absolutely no proof that the FBI ever did IGG at all.

This is not true. It's completely dependent on matches. If I loaded BK's profile into ancestry and had even a handful of paternal and maternal 3rd and 4th cousins, I could build his tree in under an hour.

And there is proof. The name spit out by the IGG was a match to the dna on the sheath. That's the proof.

There is no documentation and no name of who did it. So unless the prosecution can suddenly come up with discovery proving that the FBI actually did do IGG, then, IMO, it didn't happen and AT has "hit it out of the ballpark" in discovering all of this.

All JMO.

All JMO.

There is no way AT believes this or even WANTS this to be true. IGG is her one chance at getting the warrants thrown out based on 4th Amendment. Incorrect or non-existent IGG would completely derail her only avenue. It would be a nightmare for her if it turned out there was no IGG.

JMO

 

[SamiSleuth]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
NBC news article dated 1/5/2023 clearly states "The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath."
For anyone reading: this article is a good source of a lot of information on what was known at the time; includes some stuff on the surviving victims as well.

Forensic definition of single source dna from Google AI: "Single source DNA is DNA that comes from a single person or contributor*. It's a method used in forensic science to recover DNA profiles from trace amounts of biological evidence."
*Note yellow highlighter came from copy/paste and I don't know how to remove it

And yes, the statistical match does mean something different from how it is usually understood by the general public. That, however, does not negate that a 5 octillion to 1 statistical match is still a very damning fact for Mr. Kohberger.

Additionally, if memory serves, the Idaho State Lab had a mobile lab at the site that arrived sometime on the day of discovery of the bodies. This study (more recent than the time of this crime) indicates that cellular dna begins to degrade on brass after about 12hrs. So, while it may be likely that some degradation was taking place, it was doubtful it was enough to impair their ability to test a single source specimen.

I'm going to MOO here.
While I think I backed up my opinions well with sources, I may have missed some. If anyone has questions or concerns and as I have a unique talent for digging up receipts, please let me know if I missed anything.

 

[Nila Aella]

In one of their motions, the defense referenced 3 unknown profiles, (all of which were apparently so degraded they couldn’t be put into CODIS).

I don't recall either side saying anything about degradation.
JMO

Kohberger might be known A, and the rest are those ones the defense alluded to.

So railing, glove, and somewhere else (probably in the house).

That makes sense. BK would be unknown initially.
Interested in that third one, where it was found, and what it was (touch/blood/?).

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

I don't recall either side saying anything about degradation.
JMO

That makes sense. BK would be unknown initially.
Interested in that third one, where it was found, and what it was (touch/blood/?).

JMO

It's an easy inference. If they weren't eligible to be uploaded to CODIS, that means they didn't have enough genetic material (which happens when a sample degrades). I referenced this before, but in another case I'm following, a degraded touch DNA sample was found. It also couldn't be uploaded to CODIS as a result. Ultimately they manually entered it, and chaos ensued. Multiple different men came back as potential matches (that's what happens when you don't have a full profile).

 

[Nila Aella]

The latest stipulated exhibits include fiber and hair lab reports

Defendant's Exhibit D31 Lab Report 1/27/23 FBI Fibers hair - no connection
Defendant's Exhibit D32 Lab Report 2/28/23 FBI Fiber/hair no connection

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/012925-Notice-Filing-List-Stipulated-Exhibits-Motions-Suppress-Motion-Franks-Hearing.pdf

JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

It's an easy inference. If they weren't eligible to be uploaded to CODIS, that means they didn't have enough genetic material (which happens when a sample degrades). I referenced this before, but in another case I'm following, a degraded touch DNA sample was found. It also couldn't be uploaded to CODIS as a result. Ultimately they manually entered it, and chaos ensued. Multiple different men came back as potential matches (that's what happens when you don't have a full profile).

I am familiar with the reasons for CODIS ineligibility.
Degradation isn't the only reason.
It might be the case here, but it has not been stated why the samples were ineligible.

JMO

 

[Balthazar]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
NBC news article dated 1/5/2023 clearly states "The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath."
For anyone reading: this article is a good source of a lot of information on what was known at the time; includes some stuff on the surviving victims as well.

Forensic definition of single source dna from Google AI: "Single source DNA is DNA that comes from a single person or contributor*. It's a method used in forensic science to recover DNA profiles from trace amounts of biological evidence."
*Note yellow highlighter came from copy/paste and I don't know how to remove it

And yes, the statistical match does mean something different from how it is usually understood by the general public. That, however, does not negate that a 5 octillion to 1 statistical match is still a very damning fact for Mr. Kohberger.

Additionally, if memory serves, the Idaho State Lab had a mobile lab at the site that arrived sometime on the day of discovery of the bodies. This study (more recent than the time of this crime) indicates that cellular dna begins to degrade on brass after about 12hrs. So, while it may be likely that some degradation was taking place, it was doubtful it was enough to impair their ability to test a single source specimen.

I'm going to MOO here.
While I think I backed up my opinions well with sources, I may have missed some. If anyone has questions or concerns and as I have a unique talent for digging up receipts, please let me know if I missed anything.

"The Idaho state lab later located a single source of male DNA (suspect Profile) left on the button snap of the knife sheath."

Single source does not mean complete DNA profile. These are two completely different things. A single source could be complete or partial. At this point, all we know is that ISL found somewhere between 11 and 20 skin cells, of which a least some contained DNA, but we do not know what condition the skin cells were in and we do not know if a complete DNA profile could be or ever was generated from these cells. Usually it takes a minimum of 80 skin cells to get a complete DNA profile. And really more like 200 skin cells to start are needed in order to have 80 good skin cells with which to get the profile because the process destroys a lot of cells. There is new technology which is said to be able to get a profile from less than 10 cells but I have not been able to tell that ISL has it and I'm frankly worried about what may have happened to it at ISL - it should have been sent directly to Othram which has this technology. So, whether the DNA was degraded or there just simply was not enough of it to get a complete profile or even worse, the ISL messed up the DNA profile, IMO, it is unlikely to be a complete profile which is why Othram couldn't do anything with the DNA and the FBI took it after only 1 week and who knows what the FBI did, but, it probably wasn't IGG in one week especially without a report or name of the person who did IGG. And btw, Othram has state of the art technology to work with problematic DNA cases. So that's very telling that Othram couldn't do anything with the DNA. IMO, if Othram couldn't get anything from the DNA, no one could.

All JMO.

 

[mmeynstyn]

I don't recall either side saying anything about degradation.
JMO

That makes sense. BK would be unknown initially.
Interested in that third one, where it was found, and what it was (touch/blood/?).

JMO

What about that latent shoe print? Just wondering if that could have been one of the other DNA samples, such as C?

 

[MassGuy]

I am familiar with the reasons for CODIS ineligibility.
Degradation isn't the only reason.
It might be the case here, but it has not been stated why the samples were ineligible.

JMO

Degradation is the overwhelmingly likely reason. It happens all the time. Can you give me one other plausible reason why that DNA was not eligible?

It also makes the most sense. They didn't know what they were dealing with at the time, so it would have been plausible that multiple offenders were involved, or that a lone offender left his DNA in multiple locations. So they'd want to test everything they could.

Except they couldn’t get very far…