Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[shonyakay]

"The terrain is “pretty rough and steep,” he told the court. He showed the jury a map of the area and walked them through the topography. He described how investigators carefully marked the area near ground zero and the path leading to the girls’ bodies."

Maybe I missed something earlier, but, I don't remember hearing about a "...path leading to the girls' bodies."

What path?

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-day-3-of-testimony-includes-graphic-crime-scene-photos/

From the cemetery. The cemetery is behind the crime scene where the girls' bodies were discovered. This is the area LE used to get to the crime scene.

Did Dulin testify that he considered this a red flag? Not having the ability to hear the testimony, I know we're relying on a lot of different people's notes of the trial, so I might have missed this. I'd be surprised if he said or thought this, since RA was thereafter "cleared" and Dulin said there was nothing notable about the interview. Or are you really just saying that you think it is a red flag (which I can understand, but you've stated it differently than that)?

This is what was reported by someone. I will try and go locate it. I don't think they used the exact word "red flag" but they did say he testified that he thought it odd that RA did not want to meet at his house or the police station to give his statement.

 

[photographer4]

BBM

Respectfully,, bolded portion above is only partly true, as Brunner did several extractions over the years. He wasn’t aware of it (knowledgeC) until 1-2 years after having initially received the phone, and had checked the phone as recently as this year, according to his testimony.

I assume the multiple extractions are done due to the software being used for the extraction is updated & improved with new features over time.

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

Did Brunner use the KnowledgeC on the device as well then? I do not know, this is not an opinion, I am asking. Thanks.

 

[kae27]

If it was not recorded then wouldn’t that make it hearsay? This is not moo, this is a question. Ty.

It's not hearsay since he heard it directly.

 

[kae27]

If it was not recorded then wouldn’t that make it hearsay? This is not moo, this is a question. Ty.

Though it is not hearsay, and I don't want to speak for the person who said they didn't consider it "evidence," my view is that it is "evidence" if you feel that it is indicative of guilt. Then, there's the question of the weight you put onto it. But some might reasonably consider it "not evidence" because they believe that, in context, it is not indicative of guilt (or innocence, for that matter).

 

[photographer4]

Was geo-fencing done soon after the murders, or at least within a year afterwards?

I do not know, but I think? JG ruled no geofencing evidence would be admissible in this trial? I recall it was something the STATE wanted omitted which this link confirms: Delphi defense points to new cellphone data in murders

 

[kae27]

This is what was reported by someone. I will try and go locate it. I don't think they used the exact word "red flag" but they did say he testified that he thought it odd that RA did not want to meet at his house or the police station to give his statement.

SBM. Thanks! I can see why you'd say "red flag" if he said he thought it odd.

I remember reading that the defense claimed that RA was on his way to the store and suggested they meet there, but I don't know which version is true.

 

[MassGuy]

The LE should never have lost all those interviews and done such a shoddy job throughout the investigation.

As for the autopsies there should have at least been a time of death as this was needed for both the State and Defense.

A person needs to be found guilty with facts and evidence like DNA, blood, reliable eye witnesses and ideally a solid timeline.

I am still waiting for the State to do a slam dunk if they've got one in this trial.

Am all for a guilty person being given life not an innocent man so this trial and jury hopefully will establish a just verdict, but at this point it is still hard to say what the outcome is going to be.

JMO MOO JMT

Those interviews moved the investigation in no way. Nothing came of it, and documentation of them still exists.

What you are asking for does not exist. There is no DNA, as the killer left none. The eyewitnesses saw what they saw, there’s no changing that.

Time of death is an estimate, as you’re talking about an outdoor environment with changing conditions.

We have a 2 hour time window when the murders certainly occurred, and know based on the evidence that the girls weren’t removed from the scene.

The timeline is pieced together based on those witnesses, a little bit of video, and Allen’s own account.

So if that’s your requirement than you’ll never be convinced here.

 

[INfisherman]

What was the context?

Paraphrasing.

A poster had mentioned the “why bother, it’s over" statements RA made while the SW was being served as evidence. Bergmann said he didn’t consider that as evidence. I was asking Bergmann if he considered sworn testimony as evidence because Holeman recalled those comments by RA when he was on the stand.

"Holeman recounted telling Allen about how he shouldn’t worry about any damage done to his home during the search because Allen could fill out a form and have it all repaired.

Holeman claims Allen responded by saying, “Why bother, it’s all over.” Holeman claimed Allen repeated this line when later asked if he wanted to be taken to see his wife.""

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-misfiled-report-from-2017-put-allen-in-investigators-sights-in-2022/

Of note, my question to Bergmann is nothing overly serious - we are usually wink, wink, nudge, nudge with our lighthearted debating.

ETA exact quote in first paragraph, punctuation.

 

[SouthEnd]

I believe that if he had extracted the knowledgeC database he would have included that in his testimony, unless there is something in there that doesn’t jive with the states case. In which case we will have to hear from the defense expert.

Either way I agree with you, I believe that the KnowledgeC database was at a certain point extracted from the phone.

JMO

Let me help if possible. In the Murdersheet, they report that the expert said - when they first analysed the phone extraction, they weren't even aware of cellebrite analytic tools, which is just a ... way to read KlowledgeC.db, and other data that already exists in the extraction. In the intervening years, it became common place so they used it to analyse the data they already had.

Now, they did extract knowledgeC.db from the get-go. They couldn't not have, if they extracted the phone's data. That database is just a file within the Operating System of apple devices, that gets extracted amongst everything else. It was just not as easy and commonplace to analyse it 5 or even 3 years ago, as it is today, due to the rise of popularity of the cellebrite suite.

More about knowledgeC.db

https://cellebrite.com/en/glossary/knowledgec-database-knowledgec-db/#:~:text=The%20knowledgeC%20database%20stores%20an,synchronize%20states%20between%20Apple%20products.

Now what's funny (sad) is that knowledgeC.db is just PLAIN SIMPLE sql. Which is just tables and rows of data that you can open as a spreadsheet excel, and if you have the time and patience to go through billions of timestamps (or you know, control F) you can get all that info without using cellebrite or any tools. I understand that they are mostly shackled by 'protocol' and 'approved tools', but boy do I wish data analysts working for LE were more hardcore geeks who'd open every file and spent hours poking at the raw data, but... I digress.

TL;DR: I don't think there is any deceit re: data extractions, or monumental incompetence. It is just a smaller state that doesn't have the insane amount of money required to hire tech ppl at the top of their game, and they are all trying their best.

All MOO

 

[Dhighsmith]

Just wanted to check--does Grisham talk about spontaneous prisoner confessions or does he just focus on confessions during interrogations pre-arrest?

I’m interested in those specifics myself. Earlier last week, we discussed the differences between those situations related to confessions and how usually the suspect will- often, almost immediately- recant their confession provided during interrogation by LE, which the suspect claims they felt forced by intimidation of LE. Claims of repeated false confessions while incarcerated awaiting trial rarely occurs especially in RA’s circumstances where he had easy availability to communicate with his family.

 

[shonyakay]

SBM. Thanks! I can see why you'd say "red flag" if he thought it odd.

I remember reading that the defense claimed that RA was on his way to the store and suggested they meet there, but I don't know which version is true.

You're welcome.

They mentioned that too that the defense asked Dulin that. Basically they asked Dulin something like, Didn't RA mention that he was going to the store anyway and that he could just meet him (Dulin) there?

Since the transcripts are not available, unfortunately we can't see all of Dulin's responses.

I don't know whether he (Dulin) said yes, I remember him saying that, or no, I don't recall him saying that.

 

[MiniMoo]

Those interviews moved the investigation in no way. Nothing came of it, and documentation of them still exists.

Really...where?

What you are asking for does not exist. There is no DNA, as the killer left none. The eyewitnesses saw what they saw, there’s no changing that.

Who is to say those sticks didn't have DNA on them.

Time of death is an estimate, as you’re talking about an outdoor environment with changing conditions.

They were found in less than 24 hours not weeks or months afterwards.

I could totally understand if a lot of time had passed, but it was less than 24 hours.

We have a 2 hour time window when the murders certainly occurred, and know based on the evidence that the girls weren’t removed from the scene.

That timeline is still being battled out between the State and Defense it seems.

I somehow feel they were murdered there, but everything on the whole that I thought 2 months ago has been challenged just in the first few days of the trial.

The timeline is pieced together based on those witnesses, a little bit of video, and Allen’s own account.

So if that’s your requirement than you’ll never be convinced here.

Although those witnesses were there that day nothing they have described as BG fits Richard Allen for me.

I don't find him beautiful, he most definitely isn't tall, did one describe him as having intimate eyes? - am sure I saw that somewhere on here.

Anyhow, I believe the witnesses most definitely saw someone, but that someone doesnt fit what Richard Allen looks like physically or in looks. Not to me.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[SouthEnd]

Let me help if possible. In the Murdersheet, they report that the expert said - when they first analysed the phone extraction, they weren't even aware of cellebrite analytic tools, which is just a ... way to read KlowledgeC.db, and other data that already exists in the extraction. In the intervening years, it became common place so they used it to analyse the data they already had.

Now, they did extract knowledgeC.db from the get-go. They couldn't not have, if they extracted the phone's data. That database is just a file within the Operating System of apple devices, that gets extracted amongst everything else. It was just not as easy and commonplace to analyse it 5 or even 3 years ago, as it is today, due to the rise of popularity of the cellebrite suite.

More about knowledgeC.db

https://cellebrite.com/en/glossary/knowledgec-database-knowledgec-db/#:~:text=The%20knowledgeC%20database%20stores%20an,synchronize%20states%20between%20Apple%20products.

Now what's funny (sad) is that knowledgeC.db is just PLAIN SIMPLE sql. Which is just tables and rows of data that you can open as a spreadsheet excel, and if you have the time and patience to go through billions of timestamps (or you know, control F) you can get all that info without using cellebrite or any tools. I understand that they are mostly shackled by 'protocol' and 'approved tools', but boy do I wish data analysts working for LE were more hardcore geeks who'd open every file and spent hours poking at the raw data, but... I digress.

TL;DR: I don't think there is any deceit re: data extractions, or monumental incompetence. It is just a smaller state that doesn't have the insane amount of money required to hire tech ppl at the top of their game, and they are all trying their best.

All MOO

In this article, if you scroll, you can see the exact structure of the data of knowledgeC.db. It would be very similar to what the data from Libby's phone looked like. I admit I have spent a few years buried in code, but I always thought databases are relatively easy to read even by non-experts, so you can have a look at the type of data they had all along (battery events with time stamps. Unlocks with timestamps - failed or successful. Bluetooth connections, webpages visited etc) KnowledgeC Database Forensics: A Comprehensive Guide

TL;DR to say, if the phone was manually powered off, we would know. It would have been in these logs in black and white, without a shadow of a doubt.

All My opinion based on some experience and knowing how things work I guess?

PS: sorry, I really, really like databases.

 

[technicallymissing]

Hughes creates BG facing the girls today. I found it really interesting at the 30:29 mark.

I don't watch GH regularly but the visuals he puts together are sometimes really helpful. I particularly appreciate the ones that map out certain routes, it makes it so much easier to understand exactly who was where and went what way when. He had a good one illustrating the path Bryan Kohberger's car took the night of the Idaho murders. 30:29 is definitely interesting as is 1:52:00 that @flashy09 pointed out. Thank you for posting!

 

[Melted]

Let me help if possible. In the Murdersheet, they report that the expert said - when they first analysed the phone extraction, they weren't even aware of cellebrite analytic tools, which is just a ... way to read KlowledgeC.db, and other data that already exists in the extraction. In the intervening years, it became common place so they used it to analyse the data they already had.

Now, they did extract knowledgeC.db from the get-go. They couldn't not have, if they extracted the phone's data. That database is just a file within the Operating System of apple devices, that gets extracted amongst everything else. It was just not as easy and commonplace to analyse it 5 or even 3 years ago, as it is today, due to the rise of popularity of the cellebrite suite.

More about knowledgeC.db

https://cellebrite.com/en/glossary/knowledgec-database-knowledgec-db/#:~:text=The%20knowledgeC%20database%20stores%20an,synchronize%20states%20between%20Apple%20products.

Now what's funny (sad) is that knowledgeC.db is just PLAIN SIMPLE sql. Which is just tables and rows of data that you can open as a spreadsheet excel, and if you have the time and patience to go through billions of timestamps (or you know, control F) you can get all that info without using cellebrite or any tools. I understand that they are mostly shackled by 'protocol' and 'approved tools', but boy do I wish data analysts working for LE were more hardcore geeks who'd open every file and spent hours poking at the raw data, but... I digress.

TL;DR: I don't think there is any deceit re: data extractions, or monumental incompetence. It is just a smaller state that doesn't have the insane amount of money required to hire tech ppl at the top of their game, and they are all trying their best.

All MOO

Could you link me to the testimony where they testified that the state did extract the knowledgeC database please?

Thank you very much!

 

[gremlin444]

Could you link me to the testimony where they testified that the state did extract the knowledgeC database please?

Thank you very much!

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

"Cecil’s deeper analysis in 2019 also was able to access the KnowledgeC database, which logs all kinds of user data from when a phone is turned on or off to when the screen lights up to when apps are used and how they’re used.

The forensic examiners didn’t know the KnowledgeC database existed in 2017 during the first phone extraction analysis."

 

[rez125]

I’m similarly confused that Defense was shocked or “rattled” (TMS) when Pathologist suggested wounds to Abby and Libby were likely caused by a box cutter. That information would have previously been shared by the Prosecutor.

They were likely shocked that the now retired ME <modsnip - unnecessary>, and just happened to think to himself 7 years later, that a box cutter could be the weapon used, as he'd never mentioned it before.

 

[INfisherman]

I believe that if he had extracted the knowledgeC database he would have included that in his testimony, unless there is something in there that doesn’t jive with the states case. In which case we will have to hear from the defense expert.

Either way I agree with you, I believe that the KnowledgeC database was at a certain point extracted from the phone.

JMO

He might have. Different sources of MSM are on occasion reporting different "pieces" of the testimonies, not just for this particular witness, either. It isn’t really worth debating too much over because witnesses can sometimes be re-examined should any testimony have been left out or possibly to close doors opened by opposing counsel. IANAL (definitely the worst acronym ever).

 

[SouthEnd]

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he-was-covered-in-mud-and-blood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

"Cecil’s deeper analysis in 2019 also was able to access the KnowledgeC database, which logs all kinds of user data from when a phone is turned on or off to when the screen lights up to when apps are used and how they’re used.

The forensic examiners didn’t know the KnowledgeC database existed in 2017 during the first phone extraction analysis."

Thank you, I get a lot of my knowledge (bless) from listening to MS in 2x speed so I wouldn't even know where to begin with giving timestamps!

They had all the data (the testimony does say they had extracted everything from the get-go, but again, it is somewhere in a MS episode), but until 2019 I am assuming they weren't even sure what the KnowledgeC database was useful for.

Moo

 

[INfisherman]

I suppose that makes finding the exact gun it was cycled through just as unrealistic then. MOoooo.

That’s going to depend on which attorney you ask. LOL