Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[Melted]

BBM

Respectfully,, bolded portion above is only partly true, as Brunner did several extractions over the years. He wasn’t aware of it (knowledgeC) until 1-2 years after having initially received the phone, and had checked the phone as recently as this year, according to his testimony.

I assume the multiple extractions are done due to the software being used for the extraction is updated & improved with new features over time.

Jurors watch never-before-seen, enhanced video from Libby German's cellphone | Day 4 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

I believe that if he had extracted the knowledgeC database he would have included that in his testimony, unless there is something in there that doesn’t jive with the states case. In which case we will have to hear from the defense expert.

Either way I agree with you, I believe that the KnowledgeC database was at a certain point extracted from the phone.

JMO

 

[Warwick7]

Hughes creates BG facing the girls today. I found it really interesting at the 30:29 mark.

 

[smamda]

Sharing now because even though we've probably all seen this, I watched again last week it was a good reminder/visual of the trails and bridge. I watched on Max, but it's on other paid platforms as well.

Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders | TV Special | 2021

Watch Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders | Max

Watch Down the Hill: The Delphi Murders on Max. Plans start at $9.99/month. In 2017, the senseless murders of Abby Williams and Libby German left Delphi, Indiana, residents shaken. Four years later, investigators are still searching for the killer.

play.max.com

For those who cannot watch, here are my main takeaways.

• "The far-side of the bridge has no trail. The woods have taken over that part of the abandoned rail line, so the kids that walk the bridge to the far-end commonly discover that the excitement ends there, and turn around and head back the way they came."
• Until investigators made it publicly known that the infamous bridge guy images came from Libby's cell phone, many people assumed the pics originated from a trail cam and wondered if there were any more helpful pictures taken.
• A local friend of the girls spoke about Libby's foresight in capturing the snapchat video of bridge guy. She speculated Libby didn't have cell service at the time, on the bridge.
• The first bridge guy sketch was released in July 2017, 5 months after the murders. This was the sketch that resembled the bridge guy photos, including a hat and a hoodie beneath a coat.
• Many, many tips were received after the sketch, so police did do a lot of investigating before/outside of Richard Allen. Libby's cousin said an investigator questioned her husband, including running down a list of his male friends' names. Sheriff Tobe's name was submitted in the tip line at least 3 times, he tells us in jest. All these people are cleared.
• When the 2nd sketch was released years later, everyone was shocked and some felt hopeless because it was so different than the 1st sketch. Though eventually, grandma Becky says if you lay the 2 sketches on top of each other, they really are not that different and do include a lot of the same features.
• Previous Prosecutor Ives believed "2 or 3 signatures" were left by the killer. Tobe agreed in his own way, saying that when you consider the evidence of the crime scene and piece it all together, it will tell its story.
• Mary Ellen O'Toole, retired senior FBI profiler, shares her thoughts on the offender:
  • Seems calm and un-rushed in this situation, probably as a personality traits. This is based on his choice to kill outdoors in a well-trafficked area.
  • This "hunting behavior" suggests a sexual motive is involved, maybe their top priority. Other motivations could be thrill/excitement, power and control. She does strongly feel as though sexual motivation is involved here.
  • If the victims react in a way the offender did not anticipate, the motivation may then change, making the new priority overcoming the victim to take back control.
  • The remote area the girls were taken to + the end-of-the-bridge "trap" make this profiler believe some planning went into this ahead of time.
  • She believes the offender is local and familiar with the bridge. She thinks the location was chosen first, then the victims are chosen based on opportunity. This means the offender might not know the victims.
  • Because the offender has been under the radar for extended time, she believes him to be normal and non-threatening in both behavior and lifestyle. Maybe due to psychopathy causing no remorse or guilt.
• Timeline Monday, February 13 (no school) - Tuesday, February 14, 2017
  • ~1:40 PM Libby's sister Kelsi drops Abby & Libby off at a one of the trail entrances
  • ~3:30 PM Libby's dad called his mother Becky, asking if she had seen or heard from Libby because he was at the trail to pick the girls up, had called their phone several times, but still so sign from them.
  • ~4:15 PM Becky calls Kelsi a couple times, she finally answers and confirms she had also not heard from Libby. Kelsi tells her grandmother that she will call into work and come over to the trail to help look, which she did at that point. Sounds like she took her boyfriend (Cody?) with her. She also called her mom Carrie, who was near Lexington KY, and updated her.
  • ~5:30 PM Libby's family calls to report the girls missing. Police were dispatched to the trails and to other locations around town. Soon, hundreds of locals (up to 500) were searching for the girls, many concentrated around the bridge. Searchers left behind cigarettes butts, footprints, even urine if they didn't want to stop searching to use a restroom facility.
  • 6:19 PM Sun sets in Delphi, Indiana <Sunrise and sunset times in City of Delphi, February 2017>
  • ~1:30 AM Detective, Sherrif and Chief connect; they call off the official search for the night to re-group.
  • ~2:30 AM Tobe is notified that the girls' cell phone just pinged off a tower near the high bridge. Some volunteers continue assistance to track down that cell phone now that the location is known.
  • 7:41 AM Sun rises in Delphi, Indiana. No sign of the girls other than that cell phone ping.
  • Time not stated - A searcher finds a black Nike shoe. Kelsi confirmed it was Libby's shoe.
  • ~12:15 PM The girls were spotted about 1/4 mile from high bridge in a depressed/"bowl-shaped" wooded area. The ground had a lot of leaves and due to recent weather, winter snow had melted leaving the ground very muddy.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Aren't there gun registries? Could you check those?

Indiana doesn’t require the registration of firearms.

https://www.in.gov/attorneygeneral/files/Gun-Owners-Bill-of-Rights_Web.pdf

 

[gremlin444]

The tower and carrier data still can be a factor if not dumped after 5 yearsby the companies.

Here's How Long Your Wireless Carrier Holds on to Your Location Data

AT&T keeps cell-site location information for up to five years; Verizon drops it after one.

www.pcmag.com

"The data point to focus on in each response from a wireless service is how long it keeps historical cell site location information (CSLI), since cell towers have to know your location to provide you with service at all"

As of 2022:
AT&T’s: “a retention period of no more than 13 months for information that identifies the current or past location of a specific individual’s device and five years for historical call detail records, which include cell site location information.”
T-Mobile’s: retention period of up to 24 months for CSLI
Verizon’s: retention term of just one year for CSLI

 

[gremlin444]

I wish I hadn't listened to to John Grisham's interview for his new book about innocent people in jail. He describes the phenomenon of false confessions and talks about the dirty tricks of getting them and LE and PA's pressure to solve high profile or crimes in general. Throw in a naive trusting jury and things can go sideways for an innocent person .

MOO.

I truly hope he is guilty. We don't need to add more to this horrific tragedy.

Having said that I am trying to straddle the fence, look at it from different points of view and stay open minded.

IIRC RA revealed to LE detail(s) only the killer could know. I apologize if I'm incorrect but there's been a lot of confusing statements in this arena.
IMO that will be the smoking gun.

Just wanted to check--does Grisham talk about spontaneous prisoner confessions or does he just focus on confessions during interrogations pre-arrest?

 

[Boxer]

Here's How Long Your Wireless Carrier Holds on to Your Location Data

AT&T keeps cell-site location information for up to five years; Verizon drops it after one.

www.pcmag.com

"The data point to focus on in each response from a wireless service is how long it keeps historical cell site location information (CSLI), since cell towers have to know your location to provide you with service at all"

As of 2022:
AT&T’s: “a retention period of no more than 13 months for information that identifies the current or past location of a specific individual’s device and five years for historical call detail records, which include cell site location information.”
T-Mobile’s: retention period of up to 24 months for CSLI
Verizon’s: retention term of just one year for CSLI

The consequences of sloppy work.

 

[fred&edna]

We don’t have have the technical data do we?
The reason I ask is because I am friends with someone who was in management at Vodafone in the UK and head of all the tech department. He is well versed in the tech side of everything cell related.

No, we don't have the data. I had mentioned previously (back in thread 203/post 408) how cell phone information and reports from a 2018 murder had been re-studied, mapped, and new information gleaned (in just the past few weeks) by LE skilled technicians... helping to pinpoint the locations (as well as time info) of the victim and those possibly involved in the murder. I found the testimony about the new info quite fascinating... software, mapping and everything changes all the time.

Good of you to think of your friend but I was just suggesting additional LE technician scrutiny of the data.
jmo

 

[justtrish]

One of the officers, I believe Page, talked about how he used yellow police rope to mark a safe route for other LE to be able to walk to the bodies in order to prevent them potentially destroying evidence in areas that hadn't been processed yet.

Yes he did say this and IMO it's this yellow rope that made it into one of the many defense Franks memos. Imagine such a reasonable explanation for it after all.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I wish no one had so heinously slain these poor girls...

Agreed wholeheartedly

 

[flashy09]

Hughes creates BG facing the girls today. I found it really interesting at the 30:29 mark.

And around 1:52 he starts talking about the fastest I have ever heard and like his animated PCA, it's really interesting!

 

[MiniMoo]

Hypothetically, let’s say Allen is found not guilty. Some people will then say, “good, now I hope they catch the real killer.”

Logically, nothing is wrong with the first part. But recognize this. There is no world where anyone else would ever be charged for this crime.

As far as evidence goes, this is the best you could have against anyone.

DNA isn’t going to magically appear. Another bullet is never going to also match. No one else is going to suddenly put themselves there that day (where you could prove it). No one else is going to confess to things that only the killer could know (cat out of the bag there).

Not guilty means it’s over, and BG can breathe a sigh of relief.

The LE should never have lost all those interviews and done such a shoddy job throughout the investigation.

As for the autopsies there should have at least been a time of death as this was needed for both the State and Defense.

A person needs to be found guilty with facts and evidence like DNA, blood, reliable eye witnesses and ideally a solid timeline.

I am still waiting for the State to do a slam dunk if they've got one in this trial.

Am all for a guilty person being given life not an innocent man so this trial and jury hopefully will establish a just verdict, but at this point it is still hard to say what the outcome is going to be.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[INfisherman]

The consequences of sloppy work.

Maybe. They didn’t get a suspect until 2022, by then cell data may have been purged by carrier since what was needed was from 2016. The real consequence, IMO, is due to the increase of data breaches along with some being due to lines must be drawn as far as length of any data retention. That isn’t uncommon in many different businesses/industries.

JMO

 

[fred&edna]

Was geo-fencing done soon after the murders, or at least within a year afterwards?

 

[photographer4]

I know you have received a couple of answers about this, but I believe the "path" referred to in this piece of testimony was made with a yellow rope by crime scene investigators to mark off a specific way in and out of the scene, so as not to disturb potential evidence. There were questions about this because of the defense claiming in one of the Franks motions that yellow rope at the scene had perhaps been used by the killer. In actuality it was part of crime scene protocol to set up rope in this way and it had been brought to the scene by investigators.

So they went to the trouble of marking a path, but then didn’t bother to collect the sticks? This makes so little sense to me - I am still shocked they didn’t think the sticks were important! Yikes! Moo

 

[kae27]

Maybe Dulin asked for RA's phone to get that information. RA couldn't have refused without looking suspicious imo. Dulin already thought it was a red flag that RA didn't want to meet at his (RA's) home or the police station.

Did Dulin testify that he considered this a red flag? Not having the ability to hear the testimony, I know we're relying on a lot of different people's notes of the trial, so I might have missed this. I'd be surprised if he said or thought this, since RA was thereafter cleared and Dulin said there was nothing notable about the interview. Or are you really just saying that you think it is a red flag (which I can understand, but you've stated it differently than that)?

 

[MiniMoo]

So they went to the trouble of marking a path, but then didn’t bother to collect the sticks? This makes so little sense to me - I am still shocked they didn’t think the sticks were important! Yikes! Moo

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Swabbing sticks for blood evidence, but not bagging them to be tested for DNA yet they marked the place out (path) so no one would trample over anything.

Like really?!?

Two young girls are murdered and yet no one thought to collect sticks with blood on them for testing or as evidence.

Mind boggling.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[KSwizzle]

Maybe. They didn’t get a suspect until 2022, by then cell data may have been purged by carrier since what was needed was from 2016. The real consequence, IMO, is due to the increase of data breaches along with some being due to lines must be drawn as far as length of any data retention. That isn’t uncommon in many different businesses/industries.

JMO

I would respectfully say they had a suspect three days after the girls went missing, just because LE messed up doesn’t mean they didn’t have the suspect, and in fact, the most likely killer self identified himself within days and LE failed to do their job, and now here we are. Imagine if they did their job correctly right away

 

[photographer4]

Hi bud. I missed this earlier. Wasn’t the "it’s over" phrase part of Holeman’s sworn testimony in court? If it in fact was could you please clarify how that might not be evidence? Thanks!

If it was not recorded then wouldn’t that make it hearsay? This is not moo, this is a question. Ty.

 

[photographer4]

They knew it was a .40 caliber round, but not that it was a 226. There are at least 10 pistol models that fire a .40 cal round. And Delphi is not that small a town--the population is 3,000, which makes canvassing the town for pistols that fire .40 caliber rounds unrealistic, IMO.

I suppose that makes finding the exact gun it was cycled through just as unrealistic then. MOoooo.