Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[tlcya]

Transfer.

5 years. It's a long time to get rid of stuff.

 

[shonyakay]

Aaaaaaaannnnndddd cue the circus music!

No kidding.

 

[INfisherman]

Good question for DMV out there imo. Wonder if LE ever checked it?

Probably not. Possibly the HH footage didn’t give a clear view of the vehicle. Black might hide body lines in the vehicle. Eyewitnesses were all over the place with vehicle parked at CPS.

ETA spelling

 

[photographer4]

I found this interesting. It is from 2005 but highlights that less than 10% of attackers in violent crimes leaves DNA. - DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OVERSIGHT: FUNDING FORENSIC SCIENCES--DNA AND BEYOND

Interesting. I don’t have time to read it right now but bookmarked for some other time. Ty.

 

[INfisherman]

nHow many LE screw ups like not collecting the sticks for instance might it take for the jury to want to toss this case and RA out? I see points for and against both sides. It takes one juror to not back down in their conviction if they won’t go for guilty. Given how we debate here and we don’t see or hear what they do I imagine the jury room discussions will be quite interesting. Mooo

Honest question. What importance were the sticks in your mind? I believe they did eventually come back & get them. I’m behind so be patient please.

 

[photographer4]

Probably. Honestly, I think sometimes in this case the investigators tried to "play games" with the killer. They wanted the killer would think they had his DNA.

I thought it was no usable DNA because if it was the case, the crime would be solved earlier. But the "NO DNA connecting RA to the crime scene" that people who think RA is innocent was saying is really "NO DNA that connecting the killer to the crime scene", so means nothing in terms of his guilt or innocence. Abby and Libby were still murdered and the killer didn't leave usable DNA I am sure the state would prefer to have DNA but as pointed in those threads by another members, the P went to the court with the evidence that they have, not the evidence that they want.

Maybe he did and the state has no idea bc they left the sticks at the scene. Makes me wonder if other important clues were missed due to not being seen as important at the scene maybe? Moo

 

[photographer4]

Isn't that the same thing ppl were saying in the Adnan Syed case? How it couldn't be just a kid who's done it, because no DNA?

Just a misconception, IMO.

Attackers leave behind DNA in less than 10% of the cases - and that was the data in 2003 when less criminals were aware that they should be covering their body. DNA and Wrongful Conviction: Five Facts You Should Know - Innocence Project

RSBM
Attackers leave behind DNA evidence in less than 10% of murders.

I don’t know anything about the case you cited. Haven’t had time to review your link either. I will when I can.

 

[INfisherman]

Maybe in the dumpster at the CVS parking lot. In one of his confessions (I posted up thread), he claimed to have disposed of the murder weapon there. No reason not to dispose of his clothing at the same time.

IIRC day of search warrant there was a burn pile at his house? Another possibility.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

1) Not so far but the DNA expert will testify today.

2) RA's attorney's have stated that he was familiar with the trails.

3) Not sure, but him watching fish or not, is neither here nor there for me in terms of his guilt or innocence.

The girls were also familiar with the trails and last time had been there days before their murder, afaik. I remember the girls' hobby, not to mention a name for it!!, which they executed outdoors and in that same area. So RA may have seen the best friends more than one time there, who knows. IMO

 

[photographer4]

Honest question. What importance were the sticks in your mind? I believe they did eventually come back & get them. I’m behind so be patient please.

Pretty important in mind my to get anything and everything that the killer clearly touched! And anything he likely had contact with. Trace and transfer evidence fascinates me. Even if not dna how about fibres from the jacket or transfer from say his garden to the branches? Maybe some odd plant or trees in his yard connect? Idk. Lousy example but I hope you get the idea. That was a massive error on part of Le imo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yep, trimmed beard, long beard, defined differently….but never no beard.
His weight has also fluctuated.

He was average weight before the murders in an Oct 2016 photo I saw of him that Tricia allowed me to post on a thread and he still had a bit of brownish/red hair, then comes his first booking photo showing a weight gain of I'd guess +-40 pounds, an almost bald head, and a goatee that would rival a ZZ Top member.

I would say RA did absolutely change his look and hid in plain sight thinking he was home free after all the time had passed. It looks like he thought wrong.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

JMO

 

[INfisherman]

Gee! He COULD have been even unluckier than he is.

RSBM

My dad speaks his mind. He’s simply say, "well, just look at him."

 

[ClearAhead]

part bolded by me.

if I may ask (and I am still trying to catch up through a variety of sources reporting on this trial due to the no media rules…) but what testimony indicated that Abby “bolt(ed)”? Did only she try to run? If so, is their testimony explaining their theory on how one of the girls was running away and perpetrator gained control of them both?


I’m just trying to understand where I can find what you said in the testimony, so please don’t think it’s me being argumentative. If this is explained by a certain witness I’d like to go and try to focus in on that part(s). Thank you in advance and always JMOO

IIRC The MurderSheet mentioned they observed this the day the video was released in the courtroom. Abby was seen running or ‘bolting’ to get closer to Libby and away from BG who was right behind her. This closely follows the scenario already outlined in the PCA although only Abby’s elbow is visible in the early photo released. Near the end of the full video she is close enough to be heard communicating with Libby. MOO

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2022/11/Probable-Cause-Affidavit-Richard-Allen.pdf

 

[MassGuy]

Incredible amount of detail regarding the testing here:

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

LE made mistakes. They have been open about it. But leaving the sticks was not a mistake. It was a choice.

Datzman denied it was a mistake not to take the sticks into evidence but conceded that he returned on March 3 — over two weeks later — to collect the same items at the crime scene on the orders of a higher-up at ISP. He used photos taken the day of Feb. 14 to ensure he collected the same sticks.

"We had looked the sticks over and we saw no blood or anything on them," Datzman said, noting also that the sticks were rough and crumbly. "So in all of our experience, we've never gotten any DNA off of such a surface as this. We didn't believe they were of evidentiary value."

Crime scene investigators challenged over sticks, unspent round evidence

Lead attorney Andrew Baldwin flatly asserted it was a mistake not to immediately take into evidence the sticks that were strewn across the girls' bodies.

www.indystar.com

Quotes about blood on sticks, first one is from your post
"We had looked the sticks over and we saw no blood or anything on them," Datzman said,

[snip from article]
Rozzi also asked about Dulin searching the woods on Feb. 17, 2017— the day before he met with Allen in the grocery store parking lot, and three days after the girls were found. Dulin testified that he found a pile of sticks with blood on them and reported what he saw to investigators. The sticks were then collected.

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/delphi-tip-marked-cleared-found-while-cleaning-out-desk-put-richard-allen-on-the-radar-in-2022/

 

[FrostedGlass]

Don’t we usually see defendants showing up with glasses at trial?
I guess RA’a glasses are just a prop as they are always described as perched on his head.

Maybe he only needs them for small print.
On his head is as good a place as any, I guess.

 

[Yemelyan]

At 11:10 a.m. court is back in session. Stace Bozinovski, a DNA expert for the Indiana State Police is on the stand. Bozinovski is looking at exhibits and describing what is seen. She is looking at three exhibits: a pink shirt, a grey bra and a black bra.

Bozinovski points out blood on the pink shirt and tells the jury that the grey bra and the black bra have possible blood on them.

She tells the jury that there were two strands of hair on the shirt, one was from Abby and the other strand did not have enough DNA to identify. The grey bra also did not have enough DNA to be conclusive.

Prosecution shows Bozinovski a black Nike shoe that was found under Abby’s back. She tells the jury there is hair on the shoe, which could be from an animal. She tells the jury the blood on the shoe was partially Abby’s, but the rest of the blood needed more analysis.

The prosecution shows the jury blood swabs from around the area where the bodies were found, specifically from the ground and tree. Five of the swabs were Libby’s blood from the ground, and 2 were from Abby.

Source: Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

 

[Izzylizzy]

Peter @ LYK uploaded this video 6 hrs ago with the lawyer whose been covering the un-televised trial in the courtroom.

 

[shonyakay]

How common would a black ford focus be in Carrol county - anyone know? 2016 model.

The same make or model Richard Allen drove and owned.

AAQ - Asking A Question.

Not sure, but RA told LE during the 2022 interview that he drove past the Mears' parking entrance on the way to the trails and that he parked by an old building before walking to Freedom Bridge.

A car similar to his was seen on the Hoosier Harveststore's camera at 1:27 p.m. traveling in the direction of the old CPS building.

The Hoosier Harveststore is fairly close to the road. As seen on this video below.

Timestamp: 5:05

 

[Yemelyan]

The state shows the jury more clothing, including a sweatshirt, two socks, a green head scarf, a tank top shirt, the other black Nike shoe, a pair of jeans and a tie-dyed shirt, all recovered from the creek.

Bozinovski tells the jury the items from the creek impacted her analysis because the samples had degraded and DNA was partially removed.

She tells the jury the Nike shoe was heavily soiled, but contained no blood or seminal fluid. Only one swab had DNA and it was determined to be Abby’s.

The pair of jeans from the creek had two swabs done, found to be mostly Abby’s DNA and a small amount of Libby’s DNA on it.

Bozinovski tells the jury the tie-dyed shirt from the creek had many mud stains but no blood or seminal fluid. It had one hair strand on it, but it did not have enough DNA on it to determine its source.

She said the sweatshirt from the creek was cleaner than the other items in the creek but no blood or seminal fluid was on it, so DNA could not be determined.

On the pair of underwear found in the creek, she tells the jury there was no blood or seminal fluid found. Bozinovski told the jury that she took swabs from the crotch area. Those swabs showed Abby’s DNA. The tells the jury the underwear were stained, but not by blood.

Source: Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog