Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[Myvice]

I can't understand why people are so adamant that the eyewitnesses are in disagreement on their descriptions of BG. They had no reason to believe that it would become so important. We have media people in a court room with a specific job of reporting testimony. They have the luxury of being able to take notes yet they are often not in agreement with what has been said.

 

[INfisherman]

I know others may think I'm overestimating the importance of this no phone on the trails point, but if I were on the jury, I'd convict him on the spot with that piece of information in conjunction with the totality of the evidence.

In theory, what you'd have is a murderer that went to a conservation officer & arranged to have his meeting in the grocery store parking lot when the situation generally was in chaos. The murderer implies he had his phone on the trails (note he doesn't even use the actual word "phone"), subtly implying his trustworthiness and everyday reliability and trackability-- "nothing to see here". The conservation officer takes the report, and without even thinking about it consciously, that officer probably knows that if this individual's telling the truth about the phone, well, he'd appear on the geofence or through some tracking data later. But the murderer lied. If so, likely on purpose, moo. Perhaps he also misstated his name in a confusing manner-- on purpose. Perhaps the grocery store as designated meeting place was on purpose. Maybe going to a conservation officer instead of a sheriff was on purpose. And now he does not appear on the geofence, and his unrecorded interview with the conservation officer drifts away. And he figures he is safe, he made it past LE. It's "over." The murderer can reassure anyone concerned that hey, whatever about the sketches, he already talked with LE.

But then LE shows up later at RA's door. And then, it's really "all over." There's Odinites, there's desperate reversals of timeines, back-and-forth confessions, but let me tell you, RA knows it's over nonetheless.

NOT saying this is the way it went down yet. But I'm watching to see if that phone pinged off a tower. If no phone ping, I'd convict him without hesitation. And if he's that slick, this probably wasn't his first venture. Maybe he was fortunate and more careful before. Maybe he unraveled and reached the end of his murderous "death cycle," All MOO, but if there's no ping off that tower, I'd convict RA without any hesitation whatsoever, jmo.

Snoop,

I’m just asking out of my own ignorance. How long would the pinging info be available (kept)? What’s to keep him from saying he wasn’t using that phone but one he no longer has in his possession?

 

[m00c0w]

I believe the defense will have a very technical digital forensic expert that will unveil a lot of information that law enforcement looked over or couldn’t find.
Defense has been clearly hinting at this with their mentions of the KnowledgeC Database.

State experts have admitted they did not even know about this database when they did their extractions of the phone.

“
The knowledgeC database stores an event log of multiple processes that run within an Apple device ranging from application usage to speaker output switching.

KnowledgeC.db is the database behind the coreduet daemon in iOS meant to synchronize states between Apple products.

KnowledgeC.db is probably one of the most important databases you can hope to recover from an iPhone.”

JMO

https://cellebrite.com/en/glossary/knowledgec-database-knowledgec-db/

BBM

No, what they "admitted" is that the forensics community at large did not know about KnowledgeC when the phones were first dumped. It wasn't discovered as a thing until mid-2018, and it wasn't until late 2018 to 2019 that forensics software (Axiom, Cellebrite) started to be able to process the database now that it was able to be extracted from phones.

JMO

 

[m00c0w]

I believe that if he had extracted the knowledgeC database he would have included that in his testimony, unless there is something in there that doesn’t jive with the states case. In which case we will have to hear from the defense expert.

Either way I agree with you, I believe that the KnowledgeC database was at a certain point extracted from the phone.

JMO

What makes you think it wasn't included in his testimony? When he talks about power on and off events, and the attempt to unlock, those are datapoints extracted from KnowledgeC.

JMO

 

[Warwick7]

At the 12:45 mark Grey Hughes says there was a tip called in. The tip was from a relative of RA's. It wasn't the wife.

 

[MassGuy]

At the 12:45 mark Grey Hughes says there was a tip called in. The tip was from a relative of RA's. It wasn't the wife.

That was a theory of his at the time. This video was made prior to us learning about Kathy Shank and her discovery.

According to testimony, she found it on her own.

 

[rez125]

At the 12:45 mark Grey Hughes says there was a tip called in. The tip was from a relative of RA's. It wasn't the wife.

Does GH have videos only on YT?

 

[SouthEnd]

The state was willing to pony up $4m for the trial alone but it was unwilling to pony up $10k? That makes perfect sense IMO.

In the MS they said they decided to not go with the estimation because it would have been accurate only up to two inches (on either end, I presume). Money was not stated as the main issue on the stand, I don't think, it was more like, if there are 4 inches of leeway it is really telling them very little.

Now, GH as we saw did that estimation on video. It is complicated, but not impossible to do even for an amateur. What I am, MOO, presuming happened early on, is: Someone, maybe their tech, maybe some nice volunteers, estimated the height on the lower end, eg 5'3'' since he was slouching.
The LE heard that and was like 'that's bonkers, what are the chances that a male perp who is 5'3'' committed this murder? It is obviously all junk, lets not hire someone on record to do that measuring otherwise it will confuse the investigation, because it is obviously all wrong'. I can see that happening, especially if they were focussed on lets say RL at the time. If only they knew that a 5'4'' person could really have been the perp... <- This whole paragraph is 100% MOO.

https://murdersheetpodcast.com/

 

[Deleted member 296739]

MASSGUY DOESN’T DO YOUTUBE!

Harriett_Eva doesn’t either (and I don’t even podcast regularly … I might be the worse WSer)

 

[sunshineray]

I do hope the jury get to watch that video as many times as they want during deliberations.

By multiple accounts it's not clear what if anything was said by BG.

"Guys. Down the hill" We've all heard it a gazillion times. Holeman himself was asked on the stand, on Saturday the 8th day of trial, if he thought anyone else (besides Abby, Libby and BG) was on the bridge at the time of the kidnapping. His answer was, No.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Eight: The Second Police Interview

We discuss the eighth day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a half-day of testimony from Lieutenant Jerry Holeman of the Indiana State Police. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a...

art19.com

 

[rez125]

"Guys. Down the hill" We've all heard it a gazillion times. Holeman himself was asked on the stand, on Saturday the 8th day of trial, if he thought anyone else (besides Abby, Libby and BG) was on the bridge at the time of the kidnapping. His answer was, No.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Eight: The Second Police Interview

We discuss the eighth day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a half-day of testimony from Lieutenant Jerry Holeman of the Indiana State Police. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a...

art19.com

That's cool.

I'm suggesting it has been manipulated to make it sound like a "man" has said words.

 

[MassGuy]

That's cool.

I'm suggesting it has been manipulated to make it sound like a "man" has said words.

This is the very audio they released in the hopes that someone would recognize the voice. Why would anyone manipulate it, and what exactly do you mean?

 

[Boxer]

At the 12:45 mark Grey Hughes says there was a tip called in. The tip was from a relative of RA's. It wasn't the wife.

So few men are 5'4".
Wife probably had strong suspicion initially, but after he met with police and he was apparently cleared, and no further police came by she dropped it.

 

[snooptroop88]

Snoop,

I’m just asking out of my own ignorance. How long would the pinging info be available (kept)? What’s to keep him from saying he wasn’t using that phone but one he no longer has in his possession?

I believe I read that Richard Allen handed his phone over to officer Dullin and that’s how he retrieved his IMEI.

I don't know much about this geofencing at all, either, but I do know that logically, he said he had a phone on those trails and it would definitely cause a ping for that ticker. So there needs to be a ping for that, and if there's not, that's pretty much it for him in my mind. If he says he wasn't using that particular phone, why did he give that phone to Dulin? RA had to know Dulin was requesting the phone he had on the trails just a handful of days before the meeting.

 

[sunshineray]

If you define that as evidence, then all I can say is we have different definitions of evidence.

JMO

Spontaneous declarations are considered evidence and an exception to the hearsay rule.
They can be actually be considered more reliable than statements made after reflection, because they are made without premeditation during an unsettling event.

spontaneous exclamation

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[MassGuy]

I don't know much about this geofencing at all, either, but I do know that logically, he said he had a phone on those trails and it would definitely cause a ping for that ticker. So there needs to be a ping for that, and if there's not, that's pretty much it for him in my mind. If he says he wasn't using that particular phone, why did he give that phone to Dulin? RA had to know Dulin was requesting the phone he had on the trails just a handful of days before the meeting.

RA said he was on the trail, using his phone to check stock quotes as he was walking, as any normal non day trader does when they go for a walk to take in the sight of beautiful fishies.

The geofence captured the phone numbers of devices in the area during the time in question (police were calling those numbers), and the officer who ultimately took his information captured the relevant identifying numbers of the device he was using that day.

Supposedly using anyway. Even if one was inclined to believe RA’s hilarious story, his phone should have showed up in that geofence.

The fact that it didn’t tells me there was a level of premeditation to this. There was no phone, and that was by design.

Lest the hunter become the hunted.

 

[sunshineray]

Trying to keep up with this from the U.K. and failing!!

However….one thing I wanted to say….the witness who saw BG and described him muddy and covered in blood…..would he not be soaking wet also from the creek?

Wet denim is very obvious. I find it interesting it’s mud/blood she described…. Not ‘wet’

He wouldn't have gotten totally soaked crossing the creek if he stayed on his feet. If the whole pair of jeans were wet from waist to ankles, they'd just look like a darker pair of jeans, while driving by; or wet hip to ankle with his jacket covering the waist area. Mud and blood would still be very noticable, IMO, even if his jeans were wet. AJMO

 

[Melted]

RA said he was on the trail, using his phone to check stock quotes as he was walking, as any normal non day trader does when they go for a walk to take in the sight of beautiful fishies.

The geofence captured the phone numbers of devices in the area during the time in question (police were calling those numbers), and the officer who ultimately took his information captured the relevant identifying numbers of the device he was using that day.

Supposedly using anyway. Even if one was inclined to believe RA’s hilarious story, his phone should have showed up in that geofence.

The fact that it wasn’t tells me there was a level of premeditation to this.

So this just made me think about something, I’m in no way stating this as proof that he was checking his stocks but I find it interesting.

I personally will check crypto charts if it’s a particularly green or red day no matter where I am, I could be on a scenic walk or at home and if the markets are moving heavy in either direction I’ll be watching them.

On February 13, 2017

“Benchmarks scaled fresh highs on Friday and registered their third successive weekly gains on President Trump’s promise to unveil a new tax plan. As a result of these announcements, the S&P 500 logged its fourth consecutive session of gains, closing at a record level for the second straight occasion. In fact, all the four major U.S. stock indexes including the Dow, the S&P 500, the Nasdaq and the Russell 2000 registered record closing highs, marking the first ‘grand slam’ in two months. The Dow climbed on the back of gains made by Caterpillar Inc. (CAT) and Nike, Inc. ( NKE) which increased by 2.5% and 1.7%, respectively.”

Stock Market News for February 13, 2017

Benchmarks scaled fresh highs on Friday and registered their third successive weekly gains on President Trump’s promise to unveil a new tax plan.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[sunshineray]

I’m similarly confused that Defense was shocked or “rattled” (TMS) when Pathologist suggested wounds to Abby and Libby were likely caused by a box cutter. That information would have previously been shared by the Prosecutor.

Yes, you would hope RA's defense team would have read all the necessary documents to be totally informed. A box cutter was also mentioned in a incriminating statement RA made i prison. If RA's defense was fully versed on RA's statements and confessions, they should have expected it might come up as a question asked by the prosecution of the pathologist on the stand. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I believe the defense will have a very technical digital forensic expert that will unveil a lot of information that law enforcement looked over or couldn’t find.
Defense has been clearly hinting at this with their mentions of the KnowledgeC Database.

State experts have admitted they did not even know about this database when they did their extractions of the phone.

“
The knowledgeC database stores an event log of multiple processes that run within an Apple device ranging from application usage to speaker output switching.

KnowledgeC.db is the database behind the coreduet daemon in iOS meant to synchronize states between Apple products.

KnowledgeC.db is probably one of the most important databases you can hope to recover from an iPhone.”

JMO

https://cellebrite.com/en/glossary/knowledgec-database-knowledgec-db/

I'm sure the Prosecution will be ready when and if they do. MO