Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[steeltowngirl]

Someone here mentioned she may have fainted. Which would be understandable under the circumstances.

“He said he did not believe Abby Williams was moved after injury. Williams did not have blood on her hands, which Cicero said could have been due to her possibly being restrained or unconscious.”

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

 

[Melted]

Bozinovski later said the lab did not develop a DNA profile from an unknown male based on rape kits, despite mentioning they “had reason to believe from the case information that was provided that it was a male perpetrator.”

This means that Richard Allen is included in the profile.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

SBM

I’m sorry, I’m extremely confused.

They developed a DNA profile of an unknown male and that means Richard Allen is included in the profile?

I’m not trying to be condescending it’s just that this doesn’t make any sense to me and I’m trying to understand

 

[iamshadow21]

SBM

I’m sorry, I’m extremely confused.

They developed a DNA profile of an unknown male and that means Richard Allen is included in the profile?

I’m not trying to be condescending it’s just that this doesn’t make any sense to me and I’m trying to understand

I took it to mean, all the useful information they could develop was that the contributor was male. Since RA is male, he is not excluded as being a contributor of the profile.

MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

SBM

I’m sorry, I’m extremely confused.

They developed a DNA profile of an unknown male and that means Richard Allen is included in the profile?

I’m not trying to be condescending it’s just that this doesn’t make any sense to me and I’m trying to understand

As later reporting comes in, these matters might be clarified but it sounds like:

1. None of the non-victim DNA was great for developing full profiles, for various reasons.
2. There are traces of DNA in the samples that are male but it's unclear if it's from a single male contributor or a mix of male DNA like you'd expect to see from someone who lives in a home with other males and whose laundry (for example) is co-mingled with that from males.
3. They did not develop a full male DNA profile from the rape kits even though the information that they were given was that it was a male perpetrator.
4. This means that Richard Allen can't be excluded from the traces of male DNA that were present; but neither does it fully point to him as the major or even minor contributor.

 

[m00c0w]

SBM

I’m sorry, I’m extremely confused.

They developed a DNA profile of an unknown male and that means Richard Allen is included in the profile?

I’m not trying to be condescending it’s just that this doesn’t make any sense to me and I’m trying to understand

Yes. He is not excluded from the profile, so he is included. The main point, IMO, is that this is not evidence that some other random dude’s DNA was found. It could be RA’s.

JMO

 

[Melted]

“He said he did not believe Abby Williams was moved after injury. Williams did not have blood on her hands, which Cicero said could have been due to her possibly being restrained or unconscious.”

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

While still unbelievable horrible, it’s the only time I’ve been able to find a little bit of light in this trial. Hopefully she fainted and that’s the last thing she remembered.

 

[Melted]

As later reporting comes in, these matters might be clarified but it sounds like:

1. None of the non-victim DNA was great for developing full profiles, for various reasons.
2. There are traces of DNA in the samples that are male but it's unclear if it's from a single male contributor or a mix of male DNA like you'd expect to see from someone who lives in a home with other males and whose laundry (for example) is co-mingled with that from males.
3. They did not develop a full male DNA profile from the rape kits even though the information that they were given was that it was a male perpetrator.
4. This means that Richard Allen can't be excluded from the traces of male DNA that were present; but neither does it fully point to him as the major or even minor contributor.

I have no idea how rape kits work so this question may come across dumb or crass or both.

Is a rape kit testing for DNA that is inside of the victims vagina or are they also testing exterior parts of the body?

Basically what I’m asking is if they developed an unknown males DNA from a sample they took from inside one of the victims?

 

[Spartygirl]

If Richard Allen was into CSAM they would have recovered from one of his devices and made it very clear in no uncertain terms during their opening statements.

JMO

Not necessarily.
IF FBI is investigating the "LARGEST CSAM CIRCLE" in the state of Indiana, I would think the FBI has more say over state and local prosecutors.

They may have recovered it from RA, but not allowed to bring it up in court due to the larger case moving forward in the huge CSAM gang.

JMO

 

[SeattleStew]

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-blood-spatter-expert-weighs-in-on-girls-final-moments/

Graphic crime scene photographs were shown during Cicero’s testimony as he described how Libby was likely mortally injured before being dragged 20 feet or so to her final resting place. Cicero believes Libby was slashed near or against the tree, causing blood stains on the bark.

Blood on Libby’s hands reveals she may have grabbed her throat to try and stop the bleeding, Cicero described. Blood on her foot is consistent with her walking through her blood. Cicero believes Libby was standing upright at one point, due to the flow of blood stains on her torso.

Blood flow on her thighs reveals she was in a seated position at another point, Cicero said.

Jurors and family members appeared distraught as Cicero described moisture “consistent with a tear” mixed with the girl’s blood.

Cicero stated the blood stains and patterns on the tree led him to believe the attack on the girl started at the tree, with swipes of a weapon possibly causing stains and spatter on the tree.

 

[Melted]

Not necessarily.
IF FBI is investigating the "LARGEST CSAM CIRCLE" in the state of Indiana, I would think the FBI has more say over state and local prosecutors.

They may have recovered it from RA, but not allowed to bring it up in court due to the larger case moving forward in the huge CSAM gang.

JMO

I highly doubt the FBI would recover evidence that a suspect in the double homicide of two young teenage girls was involved in CSAM and not let the state use it in its prosecution due to an ongoing investigation but that’s JMO

 

[arielilane]

DNA is not needed for a conviction. moo

 

[SeattleStew]

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-blood-spatter-expert-weighs-in-on-girls-final-moments/

Graphic crime scene photographs were shown during Cicero’s testimony as he described how Libby was likely mortally injured before being dragged 20 feet or so to her final resting place. Cicero believes Libby was slashed near or against the tree, causing blood stains on the bark.

Blood on Libby’s hands reveals she may have grabbed her throat to try and stop the bleeding, Cicero described. Blood on her foot is consistent with her walking through her blood. Cicero believes Libby was standing upright at one point, due to the flow of blood stains on her torso.

Blood flow on her thighs reveals she was in a seated position at another point, Cicero said.

Jurors and family members appeared distraught as Cicero described moisture “consistent with a tear” mixed with the girl’s blood.

Cicero stated the blood stains and patterns on the tree led him to believe the attack on the girl started at the tree, with swipes of a weapon possibly causing stains and spatter on the tree.

continued:

Libby succumbed to her wounds in a large pool of blood while leaning against a tree, Cicero believes, before she was then dragged to the nearby spot where her body was found.

Cicero believes Libby’s murder was bloodier than Abby’s. Abby had no blood on her hands or sleeves of the sweatshirt she wore. Cicero called it “very unusual” for there not to be blood on Abby’s hands and that he’d “never seen” that before when there is no evidence of being tied up. Unless Abby was unconscious at the time of her death.

 

[photographer4]

No DNA on the green scarf. It seems some items were intentionally thrown in the creek to remove DNA. MOO

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

www.wishtv.com

“Bozinovski tells the jury the items from the creek impacted her analysis because the samples had degraded and DNA was partially removed.
<>
She told the jury that the green scarf from the creek “may not have been related to the timing of the crime.” She says there is no DNA on it.”

Throwing things in with other things probably would not remove DNA imo. They had the clothes pretty quickly after the murders, so I would have thought that any evidence from them should have been able to be recovered. MOO.

There was an article I read last week about how long DNA evidence remains on items that are in the water (eg: river) in colder vs warmer temps. The article surprised me a bit!

"Surprisingly, the same research team also found that DNA soaked in river water during the winter can stay on clothes for 2 weeks. But it only lasted 4 hours in the summer3. This is probably due to differences in water temperature and the abundance of microorganisms" - How long does DNA stay on clothes? - The Tech Interactive

 

[00stevenm]

DNA is not needed for a conviction. moo

It sure does help!

 

[arielilane]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851009918838415802

 

[BUF]

In this video she says “a tear” was possibly on Libby’s face. How would they know that after so much time had passed?

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 9 4 p.m. Update

Here's a recap of what's happened so far on Day 9 of the Delphi murders trial.

www.wndu.com

 

[m00c0w]

Not necessarily.
IF FBI is investigating the "LARGEST CSAM CIRCLE" in the state of Indiana, I would think the FBI has more say over state and local prosecutors.

They may have recovered it from RA, but not allowed to bring it up in court due to the larger case moving forward in the huge CSAM gang.

JMO

I don’t think so. Murder is usually the trump card in investigations and finding CSAM on some of his devices would have added a lot of weight to the state’s case. Not to mention, all of the phone dumps and device dumps are discoverable/in discovery. Those items in particular would have caused discovery to be very closely controlled if there was CSAM present.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

4:59 P.M.: FORMER CSI SAYS HE BELIEVES LIBBY WAS MOVED AFTER DEATH​

Following testimony from a DNA expert with the Indiana State Police, the state called Maj. Pat Cicero to the stand. Cicero is a LaPorte County sheriff’s major with previous experience as a crime scene investigator. Cicero said his specialty while as a CSI was blood stains.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

wishtv.com

 

[fred&edna]

Post in thread 'IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146' Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

Thank you for finding the source! I guess I'll just assume that LE speculated (for whatever reason or maybe it was just a guess) the killer used a backpack (or the like) to dispose of evidence after the murders.

 

[MassGuy]

In this video she says “a tear” was possibly on Libby’s face. How would they know that after so much time had passed?

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 9 4 p.m. Update

Here's a recap of what's happened so far on Day 9 of the Delphi murders trial.

www.wndu.com

From @SeattleStew ’s link:

Jurors and family members appeared distraught as Cicero described moisture “consistent with a tear” mixed with the girl’s blood.

My guess is the blood was diluted.