Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[Yemelyan]

From the Carroll County Comet:

There is no DNA to link Richard Allen to the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German and ISP DNA analyst testified to this morning.
One male DNA profile was established, but it was determined to be from an employee of the lab. Since then, new protocols have been established on attire when performing examinations, Deputy Prosecutor said.
More than 80 hairs were collected from the crime scene in all. Those were matched to Abby, Libby, or animal hair. A hair found around Abby’s finger matched the DNA profile of Kelsi (German) Siebert. Abby had borrowed a sweatshirt belonging to Libby and Kelsi before they arrived at the Monon High Bridge Trail.
The analyst sent 72 rootless hairs to the FBI for further testing. Of those, three came back as not consistent under microscopic examination to be connected to Abby or Libby. The analyst did not send those hairs for further testing , saying the success rate for a match was very low.
Many of the items collected at the scene were heavily soiled with dirt, mud and plant material causing inhibitors for testing.

Video

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[justtrish]

continued:

Libby succumbed to her wounds in a large pool of blood while leaning against a tree, Cicero believes, before she was then dragged to the nearby spot where her body was found.

Cicero believes Libby’s murder was bloodier than Abby’s. Abby had no blood on her hands or sleeves of the sweatshirt she wore. Cicero called it “very unusual” for there not to be blood on Abby’s hands and that he’d “never seen” that before when there is no evidence of being tied up. Unless Abby was unconscious at the time of her death.

Her arms and hands were inside a sweatshirt also. I can see that being restrictive enough that she couldn't grab her neck.. or she passed out before or after. Being passed out sure would be a reason he only needed to cut her once. She had just been walked through water that had to be cold.. she was naked at one point and now has on at the very least wet jeans, which would not really assist in warming her up.. likely the opposite was happening.. wet clothing equals cold. I can see her arms being in that sweatshirt to try to get warm. I hope she didn't witness what happened to Libby.. but if Abby passed out and Libby saw what happened to her, I can see her running.. I can also see Abby seeing what happened to Libby as a reason to pass out.

No matter how it happened it was horrific and these girls knew what was going to happen to them. The killer also had plenty of time to change his mind and let them live and he still chose to carry on with it. At the very least they were still alive until her phone quit moving and that was a lot of time to be terrified.

The things nightmares are made of..

IMO

 

[m00c0w]

4:59 P.M.: FORMER CSI SAYS HE BELIEVES LIBBY WAS MOVED AFTER DEATH​

Following testimony from a DNA expert with the Indiana State Police, the state called Maj. Pat Cicero to the stand. Cicero is a LaPorte County sheriff’s major with previous experience as a crime scene investigator. Cicero said his specialty while as a CSI was blood stains.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 9 live blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi murders, as it continues in the Carroll County Courthouse. Stay updated with WISH-TV's live blog.

wishtv.com

Let’s head this off and clarify that he believes she was moved a whole 20 feet.

JMO

 

[BUF]

From @SeattleStew ’s link:

Jurors and family members appeared distraught as Cicero described moisture “consistent with a tear” mixed with the girl’s blood.

My guess is the blood was diluted.

Well that is just heartbreaking!

 

[FrostedGlass]

DNA is not needed for a conviction. moo

It's a good thing.

Your reporting has been great, thank you. Did you ever see a jury question as to what they would need for a conviction? I thought I saw that in passing and didn't make a note of their answers.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I don’t think so. Murder is usually the trump card in investigations and finding CSAM on some of his devices would have added a lot of weight to the state’s case. Not to mention, all of the phone dumps and device dumps are discoverable/in discovery. Those items in particular would have caused discovery to be very closely controlled if there was CSAM present.

JMO

If it turns out that CSAM had no involvement in the murders (or just none that was found), if nothing else, the investigation into the a_shots profile did lead to putting KAK behind bars, and likely others tied to DropBox. That’s a win, in and of itself.

jmo

 

[iamshadow21]

I have no idea how rape kits work so this question may come across dumb or crass or both.

Is a rape kit testing for DNA that is inside of the victims vagina or are they also testing exterior parts of the body?

Basically what I’m asking is if they developed an unknown males DNA from a sample they took from inside one of the victims?

A rape kit exam includes both internal and external examination.

This link is for RAINN, aimed at living victims, but as far as I know, the process with a deceased victim is very similar.

What Is a Sexual Assault Forensic Exam? | RAINN

During a sexual assault forensic exam, a trained healthcare professional can collect DNA evidence from your body, clothes, and other personal belongings.

rainn.org

MOO

 

[Melted]

Not speaking on Richard Allen’s guilt or innocence I am now 100% convinced in my mind that there was more than one killer.

Libby was listed at 200 pounds on her autopsy, Richard Allen was 5’4 and while in decent shape it would be impossible for him to drag 200 pounds of dead weight 20 feet.

This is the weight of a large front loading washing machine for reference.

That along with the two different manners of death (one a brutal cut that had people describe it as close to decapitation, and one with a one inch deep cut on her neck about 4 inches long) tells me that there is no way this was one person acting alone.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

Yes and at the 3 day hearings I thought he mentioned Abby was standing when cut. If so, she had to fall over fast in order for the blood to be contained only to the neck area of the outer sweatshirt she was wearing. I am thinking fainting or maybe pretending to be dead so the assailant would leave her alone. So sad.

 

[tlcya]

Throwing things in with other things probably would not remove DNA imo. They had the clothes pretty quickly after the murders, so I would have thought that any evidence from them should have been able to be recovered. MOO.

There was an article I read last week about how long DNA evidence remains on items that are in the water (eg: river) in colder vs warmer temps. The article surprised me a bit!

"Surprisingly, the same research team also found that DNA soaked in river water during the winter can stay on clothes for 2 weeks. But it only lasted 4 hours in the summer3. This is probably due to differences in water temperature and the abundance of microorganisms" - How long does DNA stay on clothes? - The Tech Interactive

While it was winter, it was an unseasonably warm on February 13, 2017 reaching a temperature of 43 Fahrenheit by 1:59 pm and overnight it never dipped beneath freezing. The following day, the 14th, when the bodies and clothing articles were found, temperatures were even warmer by several degrees.
Weather in February 2017 in Delphi, Indiana, USA

While the cooler temperatures meant DNA could potentially have survived longer than on a summer day, it appears, based on testimony that did not happen in this case.

 

[Melted]

If it turns out that CSAM had no involvement in the murders (or just none that was found), if nothing else, the investigation into the a_shots profile did lead to putting KAK behind bars, and likely others tied to DropBox. That’s a win, in and of itself.

jmo

Agreed, I hope that what they found on KK’s devices continues to send people to prison until every single person that interacted with him for that is in a maximum security prison wearing a chomo jacket. That could be Libby and Abby’s gift to the rest of the innocent little girls in the world.

 

[gremlin444]

I've bee wondering for a week now if maybe Abby was rendered unconscious by a chokehold--specifically a sleeper hold compressing the blood flow as opposed to a standard chokehold compressing the windpipe. With a hoodie on, she really wouldn't have any marks left by a sleeper hold. The only thing that makes me not entirely sure is how he would have controlled Libby at that time since both his hands would be occupied (though he could have been holding the gun awkwardly in his hand that helping to pull the other arm back around the throat).

 

[steeltowngirl]

Not speaking on Richard Allen’s guilt or innocence I am now 100% convinced in my mind that there was more than one killer.

Libby was listed at 200 pounds on her autopsy, Richard Allen was 5’4 and while in decent shape it would be impossible for him to drag 200 pounds of dead weight 20 feet.

This is the weight of a large front loading washing machine for reference.

That along with the two different manners of death (one a brutal cut that had people describe it as close to decapitation, and one with a one inch deep cut on her neck about 4 inches long) tells me that there is no way this was one person acting alone.

JMO

How do people drag deer while hunting?

 

[FrostedGlass]

From the Carroll County Comet:

There is no DNA to link Richard Allen to the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German and ISP DNA analyst testified to this morning.
One male DNA profile was established, but it was determined to be from an employee of the lab. Since then, new protocols have been established on attire when performing examinations, Deputy Prosecutor said.
More than 80 hairs were collected from the crime scene in all. Those were matched to Abby, Libby, or animal hair. A hair found around Abby’s finger matched the DNA profile of Kelsi (German) Siebert. Abby had borrowed a sweatshirt belonging to Libby and Kelsi before they arrived at the Monon High Bridge Trail.
The analyst sent 72 rootless hairs to the FBI for further testing. Of those, three came back as not consistent under microscopic examination to be connected to Abby or Libby. The analyst did not send those hairs for further testing , saying the success rate for a match was very low.
Many of the items collected at the scene were heavily soiled with dirt, mud and plant material causing inhibitors for testing.

Video

www.facebook.com

Oh, the irony.
Actually, it's kind of sad. I was really hoping they had something solid.
The quote from your link:

One male DNA profile was established, but it was determined to be from an employee of the lab. Since then, new protocols have been established on attire when performing examinations, Deputy Prosecutor said.

 

[Melted]

How do people drag deer while hunting?

I have no idea I’ve never been hunting but I’m sure there’s someone here that could help us with this answer.

 

[Trebor5591]

Libby was listed at 200 pounds on her autopsy, Richard Allen was 5’4 and while in decent shape it would be impossible for him to drag 200 pounds of dead weight 20 feet.

This is the weight of a large front loading washing machine for reference.

<>

JMO

drag 200 lbs? Not impossible at all, IMO.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have no idea how rape kits work so this question may come across dumb or crass or both.

Is a rape kit testing for DNA that is inside of the victims vagina or are they also testing exterior parts of the body?

Basically what I’m asking is if they developed an unknown males DNA from a sample they took from inside one of the victims?

The kits had both external and internal swabs.

There was the suggestion of male DNA but no profile could be fully developed. The material was insufficient for further analysis.

The male DNA on the external genital swabs possibly could have been from normal household activities like laundry.

This is from today's testimony.

 

[m00c0w]

Not speaking on Richard Allen’s guilt or innocence I am now 100% convinced in my mind that there was more than one killer.

Libby was listed at 200 pounds on her autopsy, Richard Allen was 5’4 and while in decent shape it would be impossible for him to drag 200 pounds of dead weight 20 feet.

This is the weight of a large front loading washing machine for reference.

That along with the two different manners of death (one a brutal cut that had people describe it as close to decapitation, and one with a one inch deep cut on her neck about 4 inches long) tells me that there is no way this was one person acting alone.

JMO

I could drag a 200+lb dude when I weighed much less than RA. Of all the things that are dubious about this case, I don’t find that to be a compelling one. That’s like 10 steps.

JMO

 

[gremlin444]

Not speaking on Richard Allen’s guilt or innocence I am now 100% convinced in my mind that there was more than one killer.

Libby was listed at 200 pounds on her autopsy, Richard Allen was 5’4 and while in decent shape it would be impossible for him to drag 200 pounds of dead weight 20 feet.

This is the weight of a large front loading washing machine for reference.

That along with the two different manners of death (one a brutal cut that had people describe it as close to decapitation, and one with a one inch deep cut on her neck about 4 inches long) tells me that there is no way this was one person acting alone.

JMO

Uh. I'm female, 5'2", not in great shape, and I have dragged a box containing a 200 lb exercise bike (just went and checked the weight) from the front of my house along the sidewalk to my backyard, which was 30 feet. No doily, no ropes. Just two dinky handholds precut in the sides of the box. Honestly, it would have been easier for me to drag a dead body because it would be easier to grab and pull on wrists than it was to maintain a grip on that box.

 

[Deerrun]

Based on theory of interruption the time frame was likely significantly shortened than what was originally planned. There’s no evidence onsite of restraints but that’s the only thing I can think of limiting her ability to reach for her throat unless she was somehow subdued.

Her feet/could have been tied imo

With all my respect to a fellow WS'er, my opinion is that if he could strip Abby and Libby, and re-dress Abby; he could have taken any or all of his clothes off. He certainly would be capable of it.

I've a always thought the clothes swap between the girls happened while they were alive and made to change their clothes by themselves imo. Imo I have thought the girls were attached in some way. Either by cuffs, zip ties or rope. Hands or legs. Imo He kept them calm by telling them they would not be hurt if they do what he says. Once the change of clothes occurred, they were reattaced and Abby was either killed or knocked unconscious, making it hard for Libby to run or get very far.
These are just opinions, I certainly could be wrong. Full disclosure I have not kept up with this case in a while. I started back up a few days into the trial. So come for me