CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

[Slebby]

New article from cbc:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/items-discovered-during-volunteer-search-for-missing-n-s-children-not-relevant-rcmp-9.6980852

It seems the searchers found quite a few things during yesterday's search; however the RCMP has already stated that none of them are relevant.


MOO

Thanks for posting.
I am touched by Mr Oldrieve’s commitment to the cause of finding missing persons, he drove 18 hours to be there for this search. It sounds like PBMH has had some successful searches.
I’m surprised, with their level of experience with this sort of search, that they hadn’t planned for how to search private property, or secure advance permission to do so.
While I understand it might be a concern for property owners to have volunteers on their property out of fear of liability if injuries occur, I would expect there could be some sort of document signed to acknowledge assumed risk. I believe I had to do this when I was involved in a search many years ago.
IMHO

 

[Serononin]

Would property owners necessarily need to conduct a specific search of their land? I don't know the area, but my impression is that the parcels of land aren't huge, so it seems fairly likely to me that most of the owners will have covered their whole property at some point in the last six months, just in the course of their regular activities

 

[sunspun]

Would property owners necessarily need to conduct a specific search of their land? I don't know the area, but my impression is that the parcels of land aren't huge, so it seems fairly likely to me that most of the owners will have covered their whole property at some point in the last six months, just in the course of their regular activities

But in the course of their regular activities, even six months of it, they usually don't lift up, peer in, move aside, uncover, light up, look behind, look between, and look around every lid, cover, hole, crevice, door, rafter, haybale, pile, box, crate, nook and every cranny on their property! Looking specifically for some sign of them, with that purpose in mind, would always be better than just hoping you would see something if it were there, IMO.

 

[Serononin]

But in the course of their regular activities, even six months of it, they usually don't lift up, peer in, move aside, uncover, light up, look behind, look between, and look around every lid, cover, hole, crevice, door, rafter, haybale, pile, box, crate, nook and every cranny on their property! Looking specifically for some sign of them, with that purpose in mind, would always be better than just hoping you would see something if it were there, IMO.

Good point

 

[Slebby]

Would property owners necessarily need to conduct a specific search of their land? I don't know the area, but my impression is that the parcels of land aren't huge, so it seems fairly likely to me that most of the owners will have covered their whole property at some point in the last six months, just in the course of their regular activities

I’m on an acreage, and if there was a dead body out there, I wouldn’t know.
That said, maybe out of the kindness of their hearts, they might have already searched, or allowed LE to search. I would assume LE could obtain warrants to search.
IMO

 

[LaborDayRN]

I flip flop every day about what happened in this case. I decided to make a list to keep the known facts straight in my head. Does anyone have anything to add?

Mom/Stepdad are guilty:
- they break up 48 hours after the disappearance
- neighbor heard car coming & going all night
- previous CPS complaints & history of Lilly having a black eye
- mom left town & didn’t help search
- kids were called in sick to school that day

Mom/Stepdad are innocent:
- passed lie detector tests
- seem genuine & credible
- boot prints in woods
- weird gold car/grandma sighting

Late to the discussion but have followed this case closely and I hope and pray that these wee one's weren't trafficed. I'm finding it difficult to come up with another answer. The whole situation is so upsetting.

 

[su5ie]

Would property owners necessarily need to conduct a specific search of their land? I don't know the area, but my impression is that the parcels of land aren't huge, so it seems fairly likely to me that most of the owners will have covered their whole property at some point in the last six months, just in the course of their regular activities

I'm sure the rcmp would have put in a request to all property owners in the area to check sheds ,outbuildings and land they owned when they went door knocking for cctv . Whether land owners complied that is entirely optional ,as far as I'm aware unless evidence of a crime or evidence a missing person entered onto private property nothing can be done to search it without permission from property owner .

Even if it was suspected jack and lillys remains might be on a private property a judge will not grant a warrant unless there is some sort of strong evidence that indicates the kids are there so we might never know if this was the case .


With bears being in the area I'm wondering what time do they emerge from hibernation and would it coincide with jack and lilly disappearing. I know there would be evidence if they were removed from the yard but what if further into the woods they were attacked because they surprised a mother and her cub


I finding this case very hard to let go of and I really don't know what to make of the actions of the parents before and after . I know there is no evidence of anything untoward but there is also no evidence of the kids anywhere . They say every person forensically leaves a trace everywhere they go . But nothing has been left behind . No clue ,no nothing .Every witness has had there account seemingly eliminated .We have experts and family members saying the kids aren't in the woods .We have a police force seemingly eliminating every possibility and remaining so tight lipped that I feel the case has gone cold and will remain so like Dylan E but at least in his case a boot was found in the search area .

I think the cadaver dogs going in next week is a last throw of the dice after that I don't see anything else solving this case and prehaps a few people might be happy with the closing of that chapter and being able to go back to being anonymous. And the truth of what happened to jack and lilly will never be known even if remains are found in years to come .

 

[LookingForClues]

The connection I make is home life was chaotic. Which is somewhat verified by mbm stating she often felt overwhelmed. DM also gives us insight into mbm feeling overwhelmed.

None of us are perfect and at times will leave dirty dishes in the sink , laundry waiting to be dried or put away . This scenario is part of modern busy lives where both parents are working full time , kids in club and the running of the home can make the most energetic of us tired and having to prioritise needs over wants .

But both parents were basically stay at home parents with DM only working one day per week , they were young and not in any physical ill health that we know of , so the bigger deal is what prevented a set of pj's being pulled from the bag , was it prioritising something else ? Was it mental health ? Or was it a case of the unpacked laundry being an indicator of the circumstances surrounding the disappearance. I think this is the point others are making

I cannot get multiquotes to work so I'm only quoting you @su5ie. Also I know this is a conversation that's from a few days ago, but I've been away from the boards for a bit.

I suspect that many of us have been fortunate to not struggle in poverty. I have a family member who dealt with this before getting back on their feet. It took many years, after both adults lost jobs around the same time, to get stable jobs and dig themselves out of debt. They have 2 kids. The best way to describe it is the feeling of drowning. Every day is a struggle. You try your hardest to get back on track but the universe has different plans for you. There are days, sometimes weeks, that you're too tired to do anything because the stress is unbearable. You don't have money for daily necessities. Your car breaks down, you can't fix it and have to really on others for transportation. You can't get to interviews, or to work if you finally find a job. You can't afford to heat your home. You can't buy your kids winter clothing. When both parents fall into despair at the same time, you are drowning.

I am thankful that I've never had this kind of struggle. But I've lived through other struggles, overwhelming struggles at times. Haven't we all? So I try to be aware that sometimes life is a mess. I think DM and MBM were struggling, life was a mess, and they couldn't find the energy to tend to some everyday things. They found the energy to do laundry. But organizing it, putting it away, that was just too much given their more immediate financial stresses. I also think it's a fair assumption that this struggle with poverty was a long-term, if not life-long, circumstance. Add possible relationship troubles to the mix, and then something happens to the kids, and it's no wonder everything falls into a million shattered pieces. Most of us are just fortunate enough to not deal with this on a public stage.

I'm just not sure how this messy life may or may not have led to Lilly and Jack disappearing. I am flummoxed.

 

[MistyWaters]

But in the course of their regular activities, even six months of it, they usually don't lift up, peer in, move aside, uncover, light up, look behind, look between, and look around every lid, cover, hole, crevice, door, rafter, haybale, pile, box, crate, nook and every cranny on their property! Looking specifically for some sign of them, with that purpose in mind, would always be better than just hoping you would see something if it were there, IMO.

When the Jack and Lilly is first went missing it was said the RCMP went house to house in the area. I’d be absolutely shocked it everyone wasn’t asked to thoroughly search their properties looking for two lost children.

It’s just that landowners cannot be expected to contact the media to confirm where and what they searched on their land. It can’t be assumed they didn’t search and landowners risk being insulted if the assumption is they didn’t care and did nothing. Dividing people is never helpful.

Anyone notice how everytime BG talks to the media she is looking to blame somebody by directing her animosity at somebody for something? This time it’s locals and landowners.

 

[su5ie]

When the Jack and Lilly is first went missing it was said the RCMP went house to house in the area. I’d be absolutely shocked it everyone wasn’t asked to thoroughly search their properties looking for two lost children.

It’s just that landowners cannot be expected to contact the media to confirm where and what they searched on their land. It can’t be assumed they didn’t search and landowners risk being insulted if the assumption is they didn’t care and did nothing. Dividing people is never helpful.

Anyone notice how everytime BG talks to the media she is looking to blame somebody by directing her animosity at somebody for something? This time it’s locals and landowners.

That's because it is easier to point outward than inward ,I imagine BG puts herself down and judges herself more harshly than anybody else could . But her choice is to either look for answers ,blame somebody else or crumble into a corner and wallow in self blame and sure what good would that do to raise awareness of lilly and jack .

Yes I get only she alone is responsible for not seeing the kids for two years but I can also see a woman desperate to amend that by trying and trying some more to find lilly and jack

When guilt consumes it is very hard to go deep inside to accept the role we played and take responsibility for our actions especially when you can no longer make it up to the person . It is the reason why so many people remain in dysfunction its the path of least resistance. Blame others then we don't have to deal with the pain

 

[Slebby]

That's because it is easier to point outward than inward ,I imagine BG puts herself down and judges herself more harshly than anybody else could . But her choice is to either look for answers ,blame somebody else or crumble into a corner and wallow in self blame and sure what good would that do to raise awareness of lilly and jack .

Yes I get only she alone is responsible for not seeing the kids for two years but I can also see a woman desperate to amend that by trying and trying some more to find lilly and jack

When guilt consumes it is very hard to go deep inside to accept the role we played and take responsibility for our actions especially when you can no longer make it up to the person . It is the reason why so many people remain in dysfunction its the path of least resistance. Blame others then we don't have to deal with the pain

Good lord, why on earth is she supposed to feel guilty? It was her son who chose to cut ties with his own children, not her. This put her relationship with her grandchildren in a very precarious place. She had visits with the kids at the pleasure of MBM. She didn’t purposely cut ties herself when MBM and DM got together. Ex mother-in-laws can’t just demand visits. It’s very easy from the perch of not being in her shoes to say what she coulda should woulda. Let’s try and be a little kinder, as Amy says, give her a little grace, as a gramma who has lost her grandchildren and, as such, is a victim here.
IMHO

 

[MistyWaters]

That's because it is easier to point outward than inward ,I imagine BG puts herself down and judges herself more harshly than anybody else could . But her choice is to either look for answers ,blame somebody else or crumble into a corner and wallow in self blame and sure what good would that do to raise awareness of lilly and jack .

Yes I get only she alone is responsible for not seeing the kids for two years but I can also see a woman desperate to amend that by trying and trying some more to find lilly and jack

When guilt consumes it is very hard to go deep inside to accept the role we played and take responsibility for our actions especially when you can no longer make it up to the person . It is the reason why so many people remain in dysfunction its the path of least resistance. Blame others then we don't have to deal with the pain

Yes I understand but creating additional drama to this already tragic situation is not helpful. It’s not all about her and her grief, she’s definitely not the family spokesperson.

If she finds talking to the media therapeutic, perhaps private counselling would prove beneficial. Living on anger is not healthy, directing it at others will not bring back Lilly and Jack.
JMO

 

[su5ie]

Good lord, why on earth is she supposed to feel guilty? It was her son who chose to cut ties with his own children, not her. This put her relationship with her grandchildren in a very precarious place. She had visits with the kids at the pleasure of MBM. She didn’t purposely cut ties herself when MBM and DM got together. Ex mother-in-laws can’t just demand visits. It’s very easy from the perch of not being in her shoes to say what she coulda should woulda. Let’s try and be a little kinder, as Amy says, give her a little grace, as a gramma who has lost her grandchildren and, as such, is a victim here.
IMHO

Oh believe me I'm in belyndas corner that is my point in my post . And I'm not saying she should feel guilty I'm saying I imagine she feels guilt for not putting up a fight to see them more before and that I admire the fact that she is using every ounce of energy to fight for them now . And yes the lady deserves grace , respect and admiration for the voice she is using to find her grandchildren

It is a natural human emotion to feel guilt when circumstances like this happen even if BG has no reason to feel guilty . It tends to happen when a beloved passes away all the should have ,could have feelings come to the fore and all the things we might have said and done differently are conjured up in our minds , guilt is one of the emotions of the grieving process.

My post states sometimes it's easier to look outward then inward this is truth of human nature .

 

[Slebby]

With bears being in the area I'm wondering what time do they emerge from hibernation and would it coincide with jack and lilly disappearing. I know there would be evidence if they were removed from the yard but what if further into the woods they were attacked because they surprised a mother and her cub

<snipped for focus>
I am very sure there was no bear involved in the disappearance of these kids. There are only black bears in NS. They are statistically very unlikely to attack, never mind attack and kill 2 people at once.

According to this friendly little site, the “chances of being murdered are 60,000 times greater”.

How Dangerous Are Black Bears? - North American Bear Center

By Lynn Rogers, PhD In working closely with wild bears for over 50 years, I have gradually become more and more comfortable with them as I learned their “language” and...

bear.org

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Maybe, there is a difference for her between "the woods" and "private property", which indeed is not the same. Does she think, the children could be found on private property and therefor that has to be searched also, best with members of another community?

I agree like @su5ie , good observation on that as well.

Not criticizing locals whatsoever, I think it's due diligence to search neighbouring accessible properties if allowed and leave no stone unturned. Who wouldn't want their property searched to find these children?

 

[MistyWaters]

Are they or aren’t they?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/items-discovered-during-volunteer-search-for-missing-n-s-children-not-relevant-rcmp-9.6980852

“But Belynda Gray, the children’s paternal grandmother, is getting impatient.

Gray said she was “a little apprehensive” after Saturday’s search. Through tears, Gray said she still believes the children are in the woods.

“I know they’re out there,” said Gray, whose daughter was helping with the search.

Oldrieve said based on what he’s now seen on the ground — including the many orange and pink ribbons marking off areas that were already searched and after speaking with authorities, family and locals — he’s having a hard time believing they wandered into the woods.

“I just find it more unlikely today by the minute,” he said.

Nevertheless, Oldrieve confirmed on Sunday that accredited cadaver dogs, trained to detect the scent of human remains, would return to Lansdowne this week to conduct a search.

Cheryl Robinson, a family friend of Lilly and Jack, led a team of searchers on Saturday. Despite feeling disappointed by the results, she still has hope.

“We definitely won’t stop looking for them.”

 

[Twistinginthewind]

<RSBM> I'm very surprised that even a direction of course was not found by dog ,human ,technology nothing . So what are we left with ? A vanishing into thin air ,with no clue and an unexplainable reason as to why ?

The more time goes by with nothing pointing to anything definitive having happened to Lilly and Jack, IMO:

Something went wrong -- between the night before and the morning of their disappearance that has been able to be well hidden by someone and/or Mother Nature -- during their interaction with either:

(1) an adult, such as one who was hiding something that would be obvious and they would be in trouble for if Lilly and/or Jack were seen soon thereafter

(2) the nearby river, such as one or the other having fallen in or being pushed or thrown into moving water

(3) both an adult and the river, such as an adult who was hiding something having led them to the bank of the river when they were not fully functional or unawares of the danger, and them having fallen in or being pushed or thrown into moving water

The fact that LE searched high & low for them pretty much right away, and found no evidence of them having wandered past the end of the driveway, and there their scents disappeared as well, tells me they were taken away by a person with evil intent and/or the river "took them".

JMOO

 

[Bodhi]

Maleyha reported the kids absent through the school app at 6..20am or thereabouts on Wednesday and Thursday morning , both mornings separately. It's in the documents.

A normal morning according to documents she arose at about 6.30am got the kids dressed , fed them ,brushed their teeth and washed them and got them to the end of the yard for the schol bus arriving circa 7.30 am so most mornings mbm planned plenty of time to get organised in the morning for the kids going to school it would seem .

The backpack is of huge interest to me as its never stated if this was her schoolbag or what it contained and I feel this is very important not for me personally but for locals , hunters and the rcmp in knowing the contents in case they were dropped or discarded if it became to heavy or was torn apart by wild animals . Locals would then know if they came across something whether it was relevant or not . Now prehaps this is local knowledge and it just hasn't been released in the wider public arena.

I have seen it reported in msm later articles or on the official missing page of the rcmp rewards system that lilly may have had her backpack and jack may have been wearing a pull up . ( you can 100% take my word for it on that wording ) so i take from that wording thsg there is a small possibility that they did not .

If the kids have wandered as it is speculated and the investigation is leading in that direction, something definitely attracted their attention to venture further than was normally allowed . It is mentioned in the documents that they were allowed venture further than their normal boundary when accompanied by ( redacted info ) I'm speculating DMs older children . So where did they usually venture to with this person that usually accompanied them . ?

I initially felt the kids wanted to go to school and prehaps were not aware they had to stay home but with the normal school morning seemingly being explained by mbm this morning definitely looked different from all aspects And I'm assuming lilly realised this even if she was not specifically told .

With no evidence found of the children being found venturing outside of the trailer or the yard I'm still stuck on Thursday at 2.25pm at the Dollarama not because I don't believe MBM or DM it's because I trust the search methods and the technology and dog type used and the effort that went into it . And I'm very surprised that even a direction of course was not found by dog ,human ,technology nothing . So what are we left with ? A vanishing into thin air ,with no clue and an unexplainable reason as to why ?

Thanks so much for the exact information on that morning and the family's usual routine. I hadn't thought about the contents of the backpack. You're right! That's important information for searchers and investigators. If it was her school backpack, I'm sure Lilly's parents and teacher were able to provide specifics. Between notices, schoolwork, and snacks, the parents would have been clearly it out regularly. So I'm certain LE knows. The information may have been closely held to protect the investigation. Maybe searchers were instructed to look for any out-of-place objects in the woods rather than specific items.

It seems likely the little kids played in the woods with their older step-siblings. Information obtained from the older kids was probably helpful in determining the areas Lilly and Jack were familiar with or where they liked to go together. Favorite destinations in the woods, the interesting places that Jack and Lilly didn't normally have the freedom to go to. I can imagine the kids realizing they were unsupervised and setting out to go to one of a special place on their own.

I grew up playing in the woods. My siblings and I had a favorite rock we loved to play on top of (one side had an easy way up). It was humongous. About the size of a house. It was at least a half-hour walk into the woods, maybe more, by a convoluted route. My older brothers became familiar with the existence of the Big Rock and how to get there from friends who'd learned by accompanying their older siblings. My brothers eventually brought us younger sisters there. By the next year, we were venturing out there on our own following landmarks the older kids had pointed out to us, like turning left at the tumbled down stone wall or crossing the brook when you got to the weird tree.

Lilly and Jack were comfortable playing in the woods right by the house. Spring had come; everything was new and green after the snow melt and mud season. The woods beyond their fort would have been very attractive to them. The adults didn't want the kids bothering them. So they ventured outside. After playing by the house, I can see how the appeal of places they'd been to with their step-siblings caused them to venture deeper into the woods.

 

[su5ie]

The more time goes by with nothing pointing to anything definitive having happened to Lilly and Jack, IMO:

Something went wrong -- between the night before and the morning of their disappearance that has been able to be well hidden by someone and/or or Mother Nature -- during their interaction with either:

(1) an adult, such as one who was hiding something that would be obvious and they would be in trouble for if Lilly and/or Jack were seen soon thereafter

(2) the nearby river, such as one or the other having fallen in or being pushed or thrown into moving water

AND/OR

(3) both an adult and the river, such as an adult who was hiding something having led them to the bank of the river when they were not fully functional or unawares of the danger, and them having fallen in or being pushed or thrown into moving water

The fact that LE searched high & low for them pretty much right away, and found no evidence of them having wandered past the end of the driveway, and there their scents disappeared as well, tells me they were taken away by a person with evil intent and/or the river "took them".

JMOO

Yeah time hasn't really revealed anything more than what was known on the 2nd of May.

I feel in a time warp were the facts are swirling around in my head and fighting commonsense with respect for victims is getting harder by the day.

I know things can be missed, I know people have been found within a search area sometimes in areas throughly searched multiple times years later but the technology is getting better and the fact heat sensing choppers went up fairly swiftly and thermal cameras were used it just doesn't make sense unless they went into cold running water almost immediately.

I'm asking an honest question that for so long I've refrained from asking because I don't want to come across as victim blaming or bashing . Could a person be charged with negligence for not supervising young children adequately enough that indirectly you placed them in danger and that danger cost them their lives ?

 

[Bodhi]

-ten years ago, as a mother of three school-aged children, I would never have come up with this idea. Never heard of other mum's, who did so. But that's me and GER.

I was rather taken aback at first too. One of my kids was a major dawdler. But we loved the nightly rituals of baths, comfy pjs, and bedtime books.

It's wonderful that schools offer breakfast now. Childcare providers do too. Many kids would go without otherwise. But it seems odd to me to send kids off for the day without having breakfast when food and time are not scarce. Su5ie's post about MBM's morning parenting routine confirmed that the kids were cared for and loved. IMO.