CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

[MistyWaters]

Have we anyone who has been to nova scotia and in particular landsdowne who can confirm the terrain and landscape, I'm finding it very difficult to find a map with an overhead view of this river and although its been stated how difficult the terrain was for searchers I know Janie stated in her msm interview that she used to go for walks within it with the children and in documents it is stated the kids could wander outside of their usual boundary when accompanied by I'm assuming/speculating DMs older two so how unsafe / un navigable was it .

I'm extremely visual and when view the picture of the searcher on Saturday transversely crossing the river I assumed that the river at times is a raging tor..rent of fast flowing undercurrent and rapids ? So one snapshot can be so misleading if others are not so sure if it's anything more than a stream or Brook in spring time

Edited to separate the word tor.rent meaning fast flowing seemingly it is recognised as a cuss word on ws ?

I think it’s just an example of not everything about everything can be found on the internet. Some creeks and rivers do not flow year round and if they’re not fishable or especially if it can be at best referred to as a stream located on private property, nobody much cares where exactly they’re located. Rivers in forests are hidden from aerial mapping as well.

If not draining from an obvious water source such as a lake or underground spring, who’s to say where a river even begins because during heavy rainfall it might carry water but clearly the flow rate of a river is rarely constant throughout from the beginning to end, where it drains into another river, bay or wherever. So that is to say water that starts out as a trickle can end in a river.

I’m willing to bet the best google can do is the little blue line has to start somewhere and so they picked a spot.
JMO

 

[lastkiss]

Good lord, why on earth is she supposed to feel guilty? It was her son who chose to cut ties with his own children, not her. This put her relationship with her grandchildren in a very precarious place. She had visits with the kids at the pleasure of MBM. She didn’t purposely cut ties herself when MBM and DM got together. Ex mother-in-laws can’t just demand visits. It’s very easy from the perch of not being in her shoes to say what she coulda should woulda. Let’s try and be a little kinder, as Amy says, give her a little grace, as a gramma who has lost her grandchildren and, as such, is a victim here.
IMHO

<modsnip>

Any of us, when faced with an awful truth that our very loved one/s have gone and we will likely never see them again turn an incredible amount of guilt inwards.

Those coulda woulda shouldas eat us alive, no matter how unjustified or futile. No one is attacking BG, but she will undoubtedly be attacking herself ...<modsnip>

Just another pov for balance. God love her.

 

[BCSleuth]

The community centre in the video is at Union Centre. I think it’s misleading to assume the forest conditions around Lansdowne Station are exactly the same as at Union Centre, 15km away. IIRC it was suggested the search be on the river banks since the higher water might release the bodies down stream. As for how dense the underbrush in the search area was, those who volunteered with SAR ought to know.
JMO

Just because they set up the command post 12 km away (not 15) from where they went missing doesn't mean that is where all the footage was done. The text says "the woods of Lansdowne, N.S" and in the video they say searchers "spent a day in the woods of Lansdowne." The drone shot they show of the little bridge (at 0:20) is on Lansdowne Station road, very near where the children went missing. And the shot of them talking (0:26-0:32) is right near that bridge on Lansdowne Station road.

In any case, I'm not saying there is no dense underbrush. There obviously is in places. The point here is that there are roads, trails, open fields, houses, and areas where the underbrush is not so dense. You can move around. It is hard to find a spot that is more than half a kilometer from a trail or road. This isn't some vast wilderness. It is simply not possible that the children were wandering around, couldn't find a road or trail, nobody could find them for 6 days of searching, they died of exposure, and still nobody can find them. No way, no day. moo, of course. And we know they didn't drown, because every body of water was searched. People have looked everywhere they can think of.

The only logical conclusion is that they met with foul play.

 

[MistyWaters]

Just because they set up the command post 12 km away (not 15) from where they went missing doesn't mean that is where all the footage was done. The text says "the woods of Lansdowne, N.S" and in the video they say searchers "spent a day in the woods of Lansdowne." The drone shot they show of the little bridge (at 0:20) is on Lansdowne Station road, very near where the children went missing. And the shot of them talking (0:26-0:32) is right near that bridge on Lansdowne Station road.

In any case, I'm not saying there is no dense underbrush. There obviously is in places. The point here is that there are roads, trails, open fields, houses, and areas where the underbrush is not so dense. You can move around. It is hard to find a spot that is more than half a kilometer from a trail or road. This isn't some vast wilderness. It is simply not possible that the children were wandering around, couldn't find a road or trail, nobody could find them for 6 days of searching, they died of exposure, and still nobody can find them. No way, no day. moo, of course. And we know they didn't drown, because every body of water was searched. People have looked everywhere they can think of.

The only logical conclusion is that they met with foul play.

The plan was to search downstream. Union Centre is indeed downstream.

Missing N.S. children: Search conducted Saturday for Sullivan siblings

A new search took place Saturday for two missing Nova Scotia children.

www.ctvnews.ca

Oldrieve said the water level was high in May, low over the last few months and it’s come back up enough to flow again during the search.

“If they were in the Middle River of Pictou they would have washed downstream and we’ll ideally be able to locate something today.”


I also doubt two children could’ve downed in what might be a stream at best but death by drowning is only a very recent theory, unproven at that. This recent search was very small, one day, 6 teams of 5 people so IMO it didnt advance the investigation from where it already stood. The river might well be entirely unrelated, if they wandered and have not been found elsewhere. If no new developments arise during the winter, I agree the entire 8.5 sq km should be searched again in the spring.

Sure, we can each have an opinion but we’re not involved with the investigation.

JMO

 

[Serononin]

I also doubt two children could’ve downed in what might be a stream at best but death by drowning is only a very recent theory, unproven at that. This recent search was very small, only 6 teams of 5 people so IMO it didnt advance the investigation from where it already stood. The river might well be entirely unrelated, if they wandered and have not been found elsewhere. If no new developments arise during the winter, I agree the entire 8.5 sq km should be searched again in the spring.

Sure, we can each have an opinion but we’re not involved with the investigation.

JMO

I could maybe see a scenario where they were wading in the stream, one of them fell and pulled the other over with them, and cold water shock caused them to inhale water and drown. But if that were the case, idk if the water would've been deep/fast-moving enough to carry them both far away enough that they couldn't be found by the time their parents realised they were missing (especially since DM said that the water around the property was one of the first places he searched, IIRC)

 

[MistyWaters]

Statistics won’t solve a disappearance but missing people never found isn’t an anomaly. This interview was published last May. Who would’ve guessed it’s still be pertinent to this case more than six months later.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/missing-person-expert-lansdowne-station-search-1.7531338

How often do they never find the subject alive or find a body?

Well, never finding the subject, which we would call it a search suspension, that occurs about five per cent of the time in the database.

When a person that's being searched for is never found, what are usually the causes? Or can you ever know the causes of why they weren't found?

I have done a little bit of a study into that. So one of the reasons is they went outside the search area, so the search area never reached them. A second reason was a team was assigned but didn't go to where they were assigned. That's pretty rare in this day and age with GPS.

Another reason is while they're conducting the search, a split occurs in the area, so they didn't cover that particular chunk of territory. And the final reason is it can just be darn hard to spot people out in the woods sometimes. So all it can take is a second or two of looking to your left when you needed to be looking to your right to spot the subject. Especially with children, they can crawl into small tight places that are obscured from view, so they can be very difficult to find.

And you mentioned at the start [of the interview] that sometimes there is criminality involved. What percentage of the time is that the case?

So looking at my database, if it is an urban search … four per cent of the time there's criminality. If it is a wilderness or rural search, it's one-third of one per cent, so relatively rare.

 

[BCSleuth]

[...]

So looking at my database, if it is an urban search … four per cent of the time there's criminality. If it is a wilderness or rural search, it's one-third of one per cent, so relatively rare.

How would they know whether or not criminality was involved? That would only be in solved cases, clearly.

Rare things happen every day. The question isn’t how often it happens in general; it’s whether it happened in this specific case.

I keep thinking of the case of Michael Dunahee. A child disappeared from a busy urban playground. Nothing has ever been found.

As we know, sometimes a child crosses paths with just the wrong person.

 

[MistyWaters]

Oldrieve is getting publicity for his Please Bring Me Home organization, if nothing else.

Owen Sound based volunteer organization joins search for Lilly and Jack Sullivan

A volunteer search organization with roots in Owen Sound joined the nation's most publicized missing persons case this weekend.

www.owensoundsuntimes.com

“It’s just so wet, so vast, and so thick. It’s like, where do you even begin? I don’t think anyone can definitely say the whole area has been cleared, especially the underwater areas,” he said.

He said, having seen how dense the woods are near the Sullivan family’s home, he thinks it’s possible the children are there, despite the extensive search efforts.

“It’s such dense woods. I know there is a lot of chatter about there about other theories and possibilities, but until I hear something from the RCMP or ground search and rescue to believe otherwise, to believe that these kids didn’t walk away, then we have to keep exploring that option,” he said.

Though he notes it is “uncommon” for people, especially young children, to vanish without a trace.

“Just because it’s uncommon doesn’t mean it’s impossible,” he said….”

 

[su5ie]

I feel there will be lawsuits in the pipeline , I think it may explain the silence from family in this case jmho

 

[Bigditch]

Oldrieve is getting publicity for his Please Bring Me Home organization, if nothing else.

Owen Sound based volunteer organization joins search for Lilly and Jack Sullivan

A volunteer search organization with roots in Owen Sound joined the nation's most publicized missing persons case this weekend.

www.owensoundsuntimes.com

“It’s just so wet, so vast, and so thick. It’s like, where do you even begin? I don’t think anyone can definitely say the whole area has been cleared, especially the underwater areas,” he said.

He said, having seen how dense the woods are near the Sullivan family’s home, he thinks it’s possible the children are there, despite the extensive search efforts.

“It’s such dense woods. I know there is a lot of chatter about there about other theories and possibilities, but until I hear something from the RCMP or ground search and rescue to believe otherwise, to believe that these kids didn’t walk away, then we have to keep exploring that option,” he said.

Though he notes it is “uncommon” for people, especially young children, to vanish without a trace.

“Just because it’s uncommon doesn’t mean it’s impossible,” he said….”

Doesn't really say much.
Exposure for Please Bring Me Home Org., is worthwhile though.

 

[flowershop]

Doesn't really say much.
Exposure for Please Bring Me Home Org., is worthwhile though.

I found it mildly interesting that during the search they found a geocache logbook signed by DM on May 3, 2014.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Yes I have wondered how they ruled out an abduction so soon

What's to say the children weren't chanced upon by a predator further afield if they did indeed wander .

With our towns and cities so chocoblock with cctv cameras , ring doorbells , dash cams and traffic cams one would be forgiven in thinking we live in a world where "big brother" is everywhere and everyplace but is it the same in a rural hamlet like nova scotia where properties are sporadic and is more of a community than a city and particularly around an area like where the kids lived it seemed fairly isolated .

So what if the kids did indeed wander in to the arms of an opportunistic predator whom brought them to a secluded property or bundled them into the boot / trunk or footwell of a car . Two kids alone in an isolated location would be vulnerable to this type of situation look at abby and libby so for the rcmp to totally rule this out seemed strange .

I get the no evidence of the sort required for an Amber Alert ,but to off the bat eliminate any avenue of possibility was a jumping of the gun imo

IMO, the RCMP must have been under no small amount of pressure in the early days of their investigation to speak to what they had surmised was likely or not, in terms of the "top 5" if you will, of the likely scenarios and situations or factors, which may have led to Lilly and Jack's disappearance.

And of course, they know "everything" to be known through their investigative techniques, which has not been shared with the public, and sometimes "the devil is in the details"....

Perhaps they had their suspicions from early on in this case, and from similar cases informing their opinions that an abduction, again, perhaps, by a random stranger or passerby, was unlikely, and they were thinking it could have been more likely it was a "closer to home" disappearance situation based on known facts.

JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

An interesting find.

I agree. IMO, it brings a bit more fleshing out to the timeline of MBM's activities on that fateful morning if she called her mother in between reporting her 2 children in sick & absent from school (for the 2nd day in a row on Thurs. & Fri. after the Wed. day off for teacher/staff inservice as it's called in the US) and calling 911 to report Lilly and Jack as missing.

Perhaps it was just her regular check in each day with her mom, done in between those known communications with their school and LE while getting Meadow back to sleep and then sleeping in with DM.

IMO, that could be something she did out of earshot of DM, as to why she may have called her mom without his knowledge then, because if true, one of her relatives said DM would take her phone away and hold her down, and he said MBM's mom arrived rather quickly from when Lilly and Jack went missing (paraphrasing).

So perhaps MBM had an "intimate" phone- or app-based daily relationship with her mother, within which she shared things about their homelife, that DM was not privvy to but could have suspected, which was a sort of a lifeline for her to family support for her.

It seems to be not too far off of an assumption, IMO, that MBM had her mom to talk to, and also to help her and support her in leaving DM, whatever the reasons, because she did leave him right away after her 2 older children who had a different father from DM vanished one morning in May.

It's a very sad and terrifyingly awful position to be in for a mother, so I'm relieved she had and has her mom to lean on then and now, and for the future.

JMO

 

[BCSleuth]

Well... all we really know is that *somebody* dialed MBM's mom on her phone.

Which makes me wonder... how do we know it was MBM who reported the kids sick that morning? Is this an assumption based on the fact that it was done on her phone?

 

[tlcya]

Well... all we really know is that *somebody* dialed MBM's mom on her phone.

Which makes me wonder... how do we know it was MBM who reported the kids sick that morning? Is this an assumption based on the fact that it was done on her phone?

I thought we had read that in some of the documents released on the case. That LE confirmed through MBM's interview that she had done that. Maybe i am misremembering

 

[BCSleuth]

I thought we had read that in some of the documents released on the case. That LE confirmed through MBM's interview that she had done that. Maybe i am misremembering

Thank you. I was able to get a copy and it seems she did tell police she used the app at 6:18 to report the kids absent.

She also said she saw the kids at that time and last saw Lilly around 8:20 AM. At 9:40 AM they were discovered missing.

Also, I believe it has been mentioned before here, so I'll mention it again. Janie said that she went for walks in the woods with the kids and Daniel and they sometimes had to carry Jack because he would get tired and just sit in place. Does that sound like a child that would wander off a great distance? Definitely not.

The only scenario that makes complete sense to me is that the kids wandered out to the road and somebody took them. But then the police seem convinced there was no vehicle. But there has to be.

 

[BCSleuth]

Fact: Jack would get tired on walks and sit in place and have to be carried.

Fact: a massive search turned up no sign of them

Fact: caregivers have passed multiple lie detector tests

Fact: kids were not a financial burden: $1900/month in child benefits

Fact: $150,000 reward for info is unclaimed

There is no other scenario that fits these facts. Somebody snatched them. I have to question the police work if they feel there is no suspect vehicle. They need to revisit whatever surveillance videos they have.

That's my opinion.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. IMO, it brings a bit more fleshing out to the timeline of MBM's activities on that fateful morning if she called her mother in between reporting her 2 children in sick & absent from school (for the 2nd day in a row on Thurs. & Fri. after the Wed. day off for teacher/staff inservice as it's called in the US) and calling 911 to report Lilly and Jack as missing.

Perhaps it was just her regular check in each day with her mom, done in between those known communications with their school and LE while getting Meadow back to sleep and then sleeping in with DM.

IMO, that could be something she did out of earshot of DM, as to why she may have called her mom without his knowledge then, because if true, one of her relatives said DM would take her phone away and hold her down, and he said MBM's mom arrived rather quickly from when Lilly and Jack went missing (paraphrasing).

So perhaps MBM had an "intimate" phone- or app-based daily relationship with her mother, within which she shared things about their homelife, that DM was not privvy to but could have suspected, which was a sort of a lifeline for her to family support for her.

It seems to be not too far off of an assumption, IMO, that MBM had her mom to talk to, and also to help her and support her in leaving DM, whatever the reasons, because she did leave him right away after her 2 older children who had a different father from DM vanished one morning in May.

It's a very sad and terrifyingly awful position to be in for a mother, so I'm relieved she had and has her mom to lean on then and now, and for the future.

JMO

There’s another possible scenario, one that’s more practical, without there necessarily being a very close mother/daughter relationship considering we know nothing of MBMs childhood years.

So two of three children suddenly go missing. In the early stages of the investigation the RCMP cannot possibly predict what they’ll find (if anything) but I’m 100% certain they’ve heard of filicide. That first night, no way was Meadow left alone with MBM and DM. Either CWS removed her temporarily or a supervisor if not a police officer was posted in the home. Then comes the question of how to ensure this child’s safety going forward and so perhaps MBM was given the option to put forward names of various family members. She chose her mother and off they went. Her mother may well have been granted temporary guardianship with MBM allowed access. The mandate of Child welfare is to always attempt to arrange care of children with their family members, as opposed to strangers. Last we heard from DM was MBM was no longer living with her mother so I’d guess she was granted custody of Meadow once again.

I’m not quite ready to romanticize a close loving relationship between MBM and her mother prior to the disappearance of the children. If MBM had indeed told other she was abused and black eyes could be noted on the FT chats, her mother didn’t seem to take action. DM did say the two talked on the phone two or three times a day so it’s not as if they were distant. Even if MBM was reluctant to leave, if this was what I suspected to be my daughter’s situation, I wouldn’t hesitate to call police or CWS myself to request urgent intervention for the sake of not only MBM but my grandchildren’s safety as well.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Fact: Jack would get tired on walks and sit in place and have to be carried.

Fact: a massive search turned up no sign of them

Fact: caregivers have passed multiple lie detector tests

Fact: kids were not a financial burden: $1900/month in child benefits

Fact: $150,000 reward for info is unclaimed

There is no other scenario that fits these facts. Somebody snatched them. I have to question the police work if they feel there is no suspect vehicle. They need to revisit whatever surveillance videos they have.

That's my opinion.

The situation is that police don’t operate on feelings, guesswork or speculation. What they said, plain and simple, is they found no evidence of an abduction. But that doesn’t mean they stopped investigating all possibilities, as they have stated, which would include abduction. Only if or when they discover evidence of an abduction would they announce they believe the children were abducted. Even then it’s not a fact until the abductor is prosecuted of the crime in a court of law.

Patience, sometimes complex investigations take years to close.

 

[Sillybilly]

Seems some of you missed our earlier memo (or are choosing to disregard it).

CANADA Post in thread 'Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7'

Nov 12, 2025

ADMIN NOTE

Posts have been removed due to victim bashing that is not at all helpful in determining what happened to Lily and Jack.

Move on from the perfect parenting portion of the discussion please.

Thank you.

• Sillybilly

•