Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Snoopster]

And yet there are other witnesses that say the opposite. DP did loosen his hold on Neely's neck. It's apparent that some will believe one, and I will believe another. I would love to post proof, but I don't know if the source is an approved source per Websleuths rules.

Well, he died, so isn't that a definitive kind of proof? There is nothing more definitive than death.
Who said he loosened his hold? I haven't followed this case closely over the years, so I've likely just missed that. My apologies if I have.

 

[Chicolini]

That's what did Derek Chauvin in..he was medically/defense trained and ignored the warnings, even that Floyd had not pulse.
Chauvin's chokehold 9 mins+ secs
Penny's chokehold a supposed 6 mins

There are many who are adamant that Penny is some kind of savior for protecting NYC subway riders and believe that what Penny did that led to Jordan Neely's death is irrelevant.

Even after the evidence is presented by the prosecutors at trial showing the video of the chokehold,2 males helpers and Penny's Marine training I can definitely see a hung jury if there's more then one-two holdouts.

Many of the comments refer to Penny’s training. Specifically what training is being referred to? If it is because he was a Marine I think many folks have a misconception of what is taught. I’m a former Marine and the training I received has more than likely become obsolete because I was in from 1963-1967. So it would be interesting to confirm exactly what training was given during his time in the Corp. I may be wrong but I doubt even in today’s day and age the Corp would train Marines how to deal with mentally disturbed individuals much like a police officer would be trained. It’s a tragedy for all involved but one question I have is with the number of prior arrests and it was alluded to that Neely had mental issues- what aid in this area was he given?

 

[Chicolini]

BBM:
There were other things Penny could have done along the way too besides choking Neely to death.

Easy to Monday morning quarterback- especially when you weren’t there or involved in what was obviously very difficult and stressful for all who were involved!

 

[Ontario Mom]

Many of the comments refer to Penny’s training. Specifically what training is being referred to? If it is because he was a Marine I think many folks have a misconception of what is taught. I’m a former Marine and the training I received has more than likely become obsolete because I was in from 1963-1967. So it would be interesting to confirm exactly what training was given during his time in the Corp. I may be wrong but I doubt even in today’s day and age the Corp would train Marines how to deal with mentally disturbed individuals much like a police officer would be trained. It’s a tragedy for all involved but one question I have is with the number of prior arrests and it was alluded to that Neely had mental issues- what aid in this area was he given?

The military training folks have been referring to, is the result they found when they googled it, as evidenced by the links shared on this thread.
And I agree, the Corp likely doesn't train the same way LE does for mentally disturbed folks.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

Many of the comments refer to Penny’s training. Specifically what training is being referred to? If it is because he was a Marine I think many folks have a misconception of what is taught. I’m a former Marine and the training I received has more than likely become obsolete because I was in from 1963-1967. So it would be interesting to confirm exactly what training was given during his time in the Corp. I may be wrong but I doubt even in today’s day and age the Corp would train Marines how to deal with mentally disturbed individuals much like a police officer would be trained. It’s a tragedy for all involved but one question I have is with the number of prior arrests and it was alluded to that Neely had mental issues- what aid in this area was he given?

Once DP had JN in a chokehold his claim that he wanted to de-escalate the situation was accomplished.
DP said that he believed that JN would kill someone so now he had JN restrained and no one was in danger besides the car emptied out at the next stop.
What became relevant and why DP is on trial is that he held JN in a chokehold for 5 mins and another minute after he went limp.
Marines are trained in chokeholds and are more than aware that they can be lethal plus there were 2 other men helping DP hold down JN.

One doesn't have to be trained in lethal force to know a chokehold can kill someone, as we've seen.
JN's paranoid schizophrenia,drug use and prior arrests were all unknown to DP when he said he wanted to “de-escalate” the edgy situation and wasn't trying to injure Neely".


When LE arrived and asked what happened to JN Penny said "I took him out".
He surely did.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Easy to Monday morning quarterback- especially when you weren’t there or involved in what was obviously very difficult and stressful for all who were involved!

Daniel Penny was in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. He chose to protect the people in that subway car.

Once DP had JN in a chokehold his mission of protecting people was accomplished along with having 2 other men helping him hold JN down.

Whether passengers were frightened of JN or not isn't the legal issue facing DP.

DP is up on criminal charges for using lethal force to kill a man who threatened no one with a weapon and assaulted no one.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The military training folks have been referring to, is the result they found when they googled it, as evidenced by the links shared on this thread.
And I agree, the Corp likely doesn't train the same way LE does for mentally disturbed folks.

jmo

All chokeholds can be lethal,something LE or military trained are well aware of.
Chokeholds don't discriminate whether someone is "mentally disturbed" or not.

 

[IceIce9]

Neeley wasn't just some " Joe civilian"....minding his own p's and q's. He wasn't performing Michael Jackson routines. Dude was threatening people on the train ! Witnessed by many.

I hope they call every person who felt threatened on that train as a witness.

 

[Chicolini]

The military training folks have been referring to, is the result they found when they googled it, as evidenced by the links shared on this thread.
And I agree, the Corp likely doesn't train the same way LE does for mentally disturbed folks.

jmo

When being trained in something like self defense etc it is being conducted in a controlled environment. When it becomes the “real thing “ a whole slew of issues can develop that are not addressed in training. Also how frequently was the training given to Mr. Penny conducted? As in anything if you do no practice or keep up with a specific skill you loose some or in some cases even all of your effectiveness. That’s why athletes boxers, martial arts athletes etc train consistently!

 

[Ontario Mom]

When being trained in something like self defense etc it is being conducted in a controlled environment. When it becomes the “real thing “ a whole slew of issues can develop that are not addressed in training. Also how frequently was the training given to Mr. Penny conducted? As in anything if you do no practice or keep up with a specific skill you loose some or in some cases even all of your effectiveness. That’s why athletes boxers, martial arts athletes etc train consistently!

I believe that was brought up in the original discussion thread on this case. I think it's incredibly important to point out the massive difference between a controlled training situation in a self-defense tactic and the real deal, where you literally have no idea what the person might do. Training is good of course, but it does not prepare you for every scenario. Such was the case on the train car that day. If I had to guess, I'd say that Penny believed he was restraining him properly (based on whatever training he had), and doing his civic duty to continue restraining him until LE arrived.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

I hope they call every person who felt threatened on that train as a witness.

From all I've read, that would be most of NY.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

"With no one left to protect, the defendant nonetheless kept Mr Neely in a deadly chokehold for an additional 5 minutes and 53 seconds".

This is my stumbling block, and where the arguments fail for me. The other passengers had left the train, there was no longer a reason for Daniel Penny to hold on. I don't understand how anyone can reason that it was still OK for him to hold on. The perceived threat had passed.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

 

[shotgun09]

"With no one left to protect, the defendant nonetheless kept Mr Neely in a deadly chokehold for an additional 5 minutes and 53 seconds".

This is my stumbling block, and where the arguments fail for me. The other passengers had left the train, there was no longer a reason for Daniel Penny to hold on. I don't understand how anyone can reason that it was still OK for him to hold on. The perceived threat had passed.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.html

Perhaps he was still holding him, waiting for LE to arrive ?
My guess anyway

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Perhaps he was still holding him, waiting for LE to arrive ?
My guess anyway

Perhaps, but why ignore the concerns of others that were warning him it was time to let go? He could still have kept him restrained without the chokehold with the help of the two other guys who were holding Neely's arms down.
This is my concern. Not his intervening, not even then initial hold, I fully appreciate why he stepped up, and that he used the tools available to him, he was appeared quite confident in his ability to properly execute a chokehold, however if he was confident in his ability as he had received training in this particular move, he should have known when to let go. He is also trained to be aware of his surroundings, and did appear quite calm and in control from the footage I've seen, although I appreciate that is my perspective and I can't attest to how he felt on the inside, in which case I would imagine he knew that any immediate threat was over and the majority of passengers had left the train, and also that bystanders were warning him to stop.

I don't believe that DP intended to kill JN, but I am not sure he thinks it's wrong that he did, though I also get the same impression from this thread, but I do think he needs to learn something from Jordan's death and if this trial teaches him that then it's a good thing.

For what it's worth, I don't think he will be convicted.

 

[shotgun09]

Perhaps, but why ignore the concerns of others that were warning him it was time to let go? He could still have kept him restrained without the chokehold with the help of the two other guys who were holding Neely's arms down.
This is my concern. Not his intervening, not even then initial hold, I fully appreciate why he stepped up, and that he used the tools available to him, he was appeared quite confident in his ability to properly execute a chokehold, however if he was confident in his ability as he had received training in this particular move, he should have known when to let go. He is also trained to be aware of his surroundings, and did appear quite calm and in control from the footage I've seen, although I appreciate that is my perspective and I can't attest to how he felt on the inside, in which case I would imagine he knew that any immediate threat was over and the majority of passengers had left the train, and also that bystanders were warning him to stop.

I don't believe that DP intended to kill JN, but I am not sure he thinks it's wrong that he did, though I also get the same impression from this thread, but I do think he needs to learn something from Jordan's death and if this trial teaches him that then it's a good thing.

For what it's worth, I don't think he will be convicted.

Sadly, I believe that what DP has learned from all this (so far )
is what many other New Yorkers...as well as others across this country have...... "Do not Defend yourself or Others" because you will be arrested and tried for it.

I highly doubt ( if given the chance ) DP will ever assist anyone in need ever again, due to this fiasco. And that truly is sad. IMO

 

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[Izzylizzy]

Sadly, I believe that what DP has learned from all this (so far )
is what many other New Yorkers...as well as others across this country have...... "Do not Defend yourself or Others" because you will be arrested and tried for it.

I highly doubt ( if given the chance ) DP will ever assist anyone in need ever again, due to this fiasco. And that truly is sad. IMO

If you're going to defend yourself against an unarmed person who didn't assault you or anyone else and use deadly force to do so because you were so sure they were going to kill someone and you have no self-control on using deadly force and end up killing them then yes, you shouldn't defend yourself or anyone else because you will be arrested and tried.
The indifferent DP wasn't and isn't fit to defend anyone.

 

[mickey2942]

It will be interesting to see the outcome. Because, if Penny is convicted, it might be a precedent for others, if they see someone who is a threat to others. And no one will step up.

One step closer to complete anarchy riding the subway. Or really being anywhere in the United States.

I remember how horrified everyone was by the woman being raped on the subway, no one moved to help her. Some even filmed it. Too bad Penny wasn't there.

 

[Snoopster]

It will be interesting to see the outcome. Because, if Penny is convicted, it might be a precedent for others, if they see someone who is a threat to others. And no one will step up.

One step closer to complete anarchy riding the subway. Or really being anywhere in the United States.

I remember how horrified everyone was by the woman being raped on the subway, no one moved to help her. Some even filmed it. Too bad Penny wasn't there.

I don't believe so.
Step in...reduce the threat.
Force must be reasonable in the circumstances.
I wouldn't be afraid to step in and help in certain circumstances (I'm an older woman, but I'm feisty.) but I would never think I have to make someone unconscious (let alone dead) if they haven't done anything extreme and weren't a clear threat to life.
"reasonable in the circumstances"

Don't get me wrong. I understand that after the fact is so much easier to judge. But, defense actions must be proportionate. Otherwise people could say a person looked at someone sideways and yelled and then they could take out their gun and shoot someone.

 

[asmi106082]

Fair enough. We also don't know that JN was am actual danger that day, we don't know that he would have attacked anyone, from reports he certainly hadn't made any move towards anybody and although he was shouting and making threats he hadnt actually done anything physically threatening. We have no way of knowing if DP could have done something different that day anymore than we have a way of knowing if JN was actually going to hurt someone or if he was behaving in a way just threatening enough to get him arrested and earn a dry bed and a meal for the night. Either thing is equally possible. JMO

Were the passengers supposed to just ignore his threats? Should they have known he was mentally ill and not about to follow through? Sorry, but this guy was being combative and scaring others around him. The other passengers had zero idea that he was all talk and no action. Plus it’s not the public’s job to diagnose people.