Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Deleted member 39678]

It is indeed a known fact in this case:

"A toxicology report revealed Neely had a synthetic cannabinoid otherwise known as K2 in his system" Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

Yes. It's a fact that K2 was found. I think it could be a major factor in Neely's death and perhaps for reasonable doubt for the jury.

If someone abuses a dangerous drug, threatens to harm innocent people, is subdued by someone and the drug is a major factor contributing to his death, I don't see how to convict the person doing the right thing. JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Yes. It's a fact that K2 was found. I think it could be a major factor in Neely's death and perhaps for reasonable doubt for the jury.

If someone abuses a dangerous drug, threatens to harm innocent people, is subdued by someone and the drug is a major factor contributing to his death, I don't see how to convict the person doing the right thing. JMO.

At the very least it's reasonable doubt for me if the prosecution cannot prove it had nothing to do with his death.
So far, they have not done that.

jmo

 

[Lilibet]

Sounds like the ME was guessing about the brain death diagnoses via video.

And I'm still not understanding why her supervisor had to verify her work and opinion. Seems strange to me. JMO.

I’m not sure what in Dr Harris’s description sounds like guessing. She was very specific about the signs of brain death that she observed.

Dr. Harris testified about significant moments on video where she could see signs of death. She says Neely's face turns purple, and there are involuntary movements that are consistent with the brain dying.

This explains why a supervisor would verify her work and opinion.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

Dr. Cynthia Harris took questions from prosecutors.

ny1.com

Dr. Harris, who was a fellow under supervision when she conducted the autopsy, also testified about how the cause of death was determined.
————————
Being a fellow involves training in a medical subspecialty. Being a fellow working under supervision in no way indicates that she was less skilled. Fellowships are reserved for the best.

What is a medical fellowship?

What Is a Medical Fellowship? Purpose, Length, Salary

What is a medical fellowship? If you are considering a fellowship but need more information, read our guide! We cover everything you need to know about a medical fellowship program, including how to get into one!

www.inspiraadvantage.com

A fellowship in medical training is a program for medical school graduates who have completed their residency and wish to carry on learning in a specific area of medicine. Dentists, veterinarians, and physicians alike can participate in a fellowship after completing a residency program.

Physicians are referred to as “fellows” during a fellowship and may act as attending or consulting physicians in their respective specialty fields.

Keep in mind fellowships are competitive, and not everyone gets in. While it means more study, it's a solid way to deepen your knowledge about specific patient groups or organ systems.

Once the program is complete, physicians no longer require supervision to practice medicine in their sub-specialty. These programs are reserved for the top doctoral graduates, so it is widely considered an honor to be offered a fellowship.

Medical fellows are board-certified physicians who study under experts in a specific sub-specialty. Although a fellowship is not required to practice as a physician after residency, it is recommended for doctors who wish to be expert specialists.

BBM

 

[Deleted member 39678]

At the very least it's reasonable doubt for me if the prosecution cannot prove it had nothing to do with his death.
So far, they have not done that.

jmo

I'm not impressed with the ME's testimony.

It's "I watched a video so toxicology doesn't matter." Right.

And you are correct that the burden of proof is on the prosecution. JMO.

 

[HmmMysterious]

If the K2 is what caused Neely's death it is definitely relevant.

I think it's time to agree to disagree about the cause of death being the "choke hold". You have your opinion and I have mine. JMO.

The autopsy doctor, Cynthia Harris, said only the chokehold killed Jordan Neely. She said no toxicological report could've changed her mind.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

If you think this is different than George Floyd's case, then the autopsy doctor's testimony refutes that.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I’m not sure what in Dr Harris’s description sounds like guessing. She was very specific about the signs of brain death that she observed.

This explains why a supervisor would verify her work and opinion.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

Dr. Cynthia Harris took questions from prosecutors.

ny1.com

Dr. Harris, who was a fellow under supervision when she conducted the autopsy, also testified about how the cause of death was determined.
————————
Being a fellow involves training in a medical subspecialty. Being a fellow working under supervision in no way indicates that she was less skilled. Fellowships are reserved for the best.

What is a medical fellowship?

What Is a Medical Fellowship? Purpose, Length, Salary

What is a medical fellowship? If you are considering a fellowship but need more information, read our guide! We cover everything you need to know about a medical fellowship program, including how to get into one!

www.inspiraadvantage.com

A fellowship in medical training is a program for medical school graduates who have completed their residency and wish to carry on learning in a specific area of medicine. Dentists, veterinarians, and physicians alike can participate in a fellowship after completing a residency program.

Physicians are referred to as “fellows” during a fellowship and may act as attending or consulting physicians in their respective specialty fields.

Keep in mind fellowships are competitive, and not everyone gets in. While it means more study, it's a solid way to deepen your knowledge about specific patient groups or organ systems.

Once the program is complete, physicians no longer require supervision to practice medicine in their sub-specialty. These programs are reserved for the top doctoral graduates, so it is widely considered an honor to be offered a fellowship.

Medical fellows are board-certified physicians who study under experts in a specific sub-specialty. Although a fellowship is not required to practice as a physician after residency, it is recommended for doctors who wish to be expert specialists.

BBM

So the ME in this case lacks experience. That could be a problem. JMO.

 

[acutename]

I'm interested in seeing a link for that fact too. We know that they found K2 in Neely's system so they can test for that.

Daniel Penny chokehold caused Jordan Neely death, even if homeless man had enough drugs in system to ‘put down an elephant’: ME testimony

The medical examiner who ruled Jordan Neely’s death was a homicide caused by Daniel Penny’s chokehold insisted Friday she’d stand by the ruling.

nypost.com

tried to look up some information on this. Lots of bad physical effects:

Review of the many faces of synthetic cannabinoid toxicities - PMC

Synthetic cannabinoids (SCs) are psychoactive substances that are gaining popularity for their availability and lack of detection by standardized drug tests. Although some users may perceive SCs as safer alternatives to marijuana, some SCs are more ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

major labs have tests- urine tests- they say they are "qualitative" not "quantitative, so I am reading that as "presence of" but not amount:

Synthetic Cannabinoids (K2, Spice), Screen with Reflexed ...​

Labcorp
https://www.labcorp.com › tests › synthetic-cannabinoi...





Labcorp test details for Synthetic Cannabinoids (K2, Spice), Screen with Reflexed Confirmation, Qualitative, Urine.

Basic Synthetic Cannabinoids Drug Test Panel (K2/Spice)​

Any Lab Test Now
https://www.anylabtestnow.com › tests › basic-synthetic-...




The Synthetic Marijuana Urine Drug Test will test for the presence or absence of five variations of the designer drug known on the streets as “Spice” or “K2.”

that is 2.... there are more online...

also this rehab center article says that the synthetic drugs can stay in your fatty tissues for a long time:


Feedback

How Long Does Spice/K2 Stay in Your System?​

Ridgefield Recovery
https://www.ridgefieldrecovery.com › drugs › how-lon...





The drug stays in the body and can be detected for a very long time. The half-life of spice is thought to be up to 41 days.

but that is not the time that the drug "feels" effective and the labs tests above are urine tests.
Seems complex and I do not think from reading the above that the lab tests are standard or FDA approved. IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

I'm not impressed with the ME's testimony.

It's "I watched a video so toxicology doesn't matter." Right.

And you are correct that the burden of proof is on the prosecution. JMO.

The people with expertise don’t agree with you.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

Dr. Cynthia Harris took questions from prosecutors.

ny1.com

Dr. Harris presented her case as part of a routine conference with senior medical examiners, including the city’s chief, Dr. Jason Graham.

“Dr. Graham agreed with my assessment,” Dr. Harris said.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

tried to look up some information on this. Lots of bad physical effects:

Review of the many faces of synthetic cannabinoid toxicities - PMC

Synthetic cannabinoids (SCs) are psychoactive substances that are gaining popularity for their availability and lack of detection by standardized drug tests. Although some users may perceive SCs as safer alternatives to marijuana, some SCs are more ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

major labs have tests- urine tests- they say they are "qualitative" not "quantitative, so I am reading that as "presence of" but not amount:

Synthetic Cannabinoids (K2, Spice), Screen with Reflexed ...​

View attachment 545602
Labcorp
https://www.labcorp.com › tests › synthetic-cannabinoi...





Labcorp test details for Synthetic Cannabinoids (K2, Spice), Screen with Reflexed Confirmation, Qualitative, Urine.

View attachment 545603

Basic Synthetic Cannabinoids Drug Test Panel (K2/Spice)​

View attachment 545601
Any Lab Test Now
https://www.anylabtestnow.com › tests › basic-synthetic-...




The Synthetic Marijuana Urine Drug Test will test for the presence or absence of five variations of the designer drug known on the streets as “Spice” or “K2.”

that is 2.... there are more online...

also this rehab center article says that the synthetic drugs can stay in your fatty tissues for a long time:


Feedback

View attachment 545605

How Long Does Spice/K2 Stay in Your System?​

View attachment 545604
Ridgefield Recovery
https://www.ridgefieldrecovery.com › drugs › how-lon...




View attachment 545606
The drug stays in the body and can be detected for a very long time. The half-life of spice is thought to be up to 41 days.

but that is not the time that the drug "feels" effective and the labs tests above are urine tests.
Seems complex and I do not think from reading he above that the lab tests are standard or FDA approved. IMO.

Thanks for taking the time to look for that information and bringing it to us.

 

[Lilibet]

So the ME in this case lacks experience. That could be a problem. JMO.

[Edited—inappropriate comment] That’s what you took away from the description of a fellow? This is someone getting more in depth training in a subspecialty. It does not mean she’s never done autopsies before. As she pointed out, the city’s chief medical examiner agreed with her.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The people with expertise don’t agree with you.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

Dr. Cynthia Harris took questions from prosecutors.

ny1.com

Dr. Harris presented her case as part of a routine conference with senior medical examiners, including the city’s chief, Dr. Jason Graham.

“Dr. Graham agreed with my assessment,” Dr. Harris said.

I okay with her coworkers and peers backing her up.

I'm waiting for the defense experts testimony. I have a feeling they will paint a different picture. One that involves more than reviewing a video. JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

The people with expertise don’t agree with you.

Autopsy doctor testifies how chokehold killed Jordan Neely

Dr. Cynthia Harris took questions from prosecutors.

ny1.com

Dr. Harris presented her case as part of a routine conference with senior medical examiners, including the city’s chief, Dr. Jason Graham.

“Dr. Graham agreed with my assessment,” Dr. Harris said.

Expertise doesn't automatically mean infallible.

If the ME neglected to consider the tox because the video was all that was needed, that's serious cause for concern. At least it should be. At the very least, the tox should have been ruled out as any sort of contributing factor, with medical facts. That was not done, as far as I know.

jmo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Expertise doesn't automatically mean infallible.

If the ME neglected to consider the tox because the video was all that was needed, that's serious cause for concern. At least it should be. At the very least, the tox should have been ruled out as any sort of contributing factor, with medical facts. That was not done, as far as I know.

jmo

Exactly.

And that's why I feel it's important for me to hear from the defense. There's something missing so far.

Hey, I'm just a retired auto parts guy who likes to post on Websleuths. I'm no expert but I don't like how this ME came to her conclusions. JMO.

 

[Izzylizzy]

If someone attacks me and I die of a heart attack (I have pre-existing heart trouble), is that person who attacked me innocent? Of course not. There is a miniscule chance that I would have had a heart attack and died at that moment had I not been attacked. So, regardless of the amount of K2 taken by Neely, the precipitating factor in his death at that moment was Mr Penny’s chokehold.

JMO

Exactly and as another example from what I've read about strangulation and brain dead had LE or the medics been able to revive JN's heart here's no doubt he would be brain damaged and be put on life support and DP could have been criminally charged but not with manslaughter or homicide
If JN eventually was taken off life support and died then the charges against DP could be upped to the manslaughter 2nd /neg homicide.

 

[Izzylizzy]

It is indeed a known fact in this case:

"A toxicology report revealed Neely had a synthetic cannabinoid otherwise known as K2 in his system" Medical examiner testifies in trial of Daniel Penny for NYC subway chokehold death

They don't know when he took it and what level was in his system when he died and they will never know.
K2 did not prevent him from breathing for 6 minutes.
DP did that.

 

[mickey2942]

Read my post about the synthetic cannabis that Neely had in his system. It explains things perfectly. JMO.

It does. And Neely also had Sickle Cell, I wonder how the synthetic cannabis affected his sickle cell disease. Wow, check this out.

Altmetric Short Communication
Sickle Cell Crisis Complicated by Synthetic Cannabinoid Abuse: A Case Report

Summary: patient had delirium, pain, and marked agitation and required intubation following acute chest syndrome.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/03630269.2016.1149077

 

[jepop]

Moo DP's excessive, six minute chokehold is directly responsible for JN' death. Imo this will be proven through prosecution evidence BARD. In a just world and if the jury is impartial and listening, I think DP will be convicted of either manslaughter 2nd degree (reckless indifference but no intent) or criminal negligence (the minor charge should jury not find for 2nd degree manslaughter).

There is no justification for JN''s death on the subway that day. DP's actions go beyond an accident. I don't want to condone a justice system without accountability for some, based on notions of hero worship and the misguided moo assumption that a person who has initial honourable intentions but then goes on to recklessly apply force to a man who is down and restrained, is somehow above the law in civilian society.

This was not self defence, nor an accident, nor murder. It was negligent manslaughter. Imo it was the correct and right decision to bring the case. What happened to JN and the way it happened is not ok.

Here for Jordan Neely and his family. Here for a lawful society. Here for personal accountability.

 

[PuzzlinEvidence]

There is no justification for JN''s death on the subway that day. DP's actions go beyond an accident. I don't want to condone a justice system without accountability for some, based on notions of hero worship and the misguided moo assumption that a person who has initial honourable intentions but then goes on to recklessly apply force to a man who is down and restrained, is somehow above the law in civilian society

Well put. As an MMA fan, the critical part that stands out to me in this case is the duration of the choke once JN is unconscious. Anyone who knows anything about blood chokes is aware that they are dangerous and can render someone unconscious within several seconds. Once the person being choked goes unconscious, in any real-world situation where you're NOT trying to cause brain damage or kill the person, you immediately let go.

If you hold it for a few seconds too long, they may take a moment to wake up, yet should otherwise be fine. But if you keep applying the choke for just 20 or 30 seconds, you're liable to cause brain damage.

Knowingly applying a blood choke to a person who has already gone 'out' for another minute or more is wildly negligent. I would say reckless.

 

[Lilibet]

It pains me to think of what Jordan Neely must have gone through in the two minutes before he was brain dead, knowing during some of that time that he was being killed and not just restrained. I know what it feels like to be unable to get enough oxygen (briefly) and it’s a horrible feeling of panic. I remember begging a nurse “Please don’t let me die.” Obviously, she didn’t. But no one was there for Jordan Neely. It’s so very sad and was so unnecessary.

JMO

 

[JennieM]

On May 1 2023, 3pm, would Jordan Neely still be alive if he hadn’t crossed paths with Daniel Penny?

Yes.