NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #10 *Arrest*

[MassGuy]

Wow they are going for domestic terrorism, thought they would play it safe and go for 2nd degree

He’s charged with that too.

 

[Sunshynn]

Wow.
I kept hearing that they weren't going to be charging him with murder in the 1st degree but...there it is.
Plus two counts of murder in the 2nd degree with one being domestic terrorism.

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Mangione-Indictment-FINAL-as-filed.pdf

 

[citygirl]

Mental illness can confer "permanent cognitive damage" on a person, of course, although many illnesses have periods of remission.

You can't tell who is mentally ill by their looks (many "normal" looking people are mentally ill; the guy who plays Trump on SNL (Darrell Hammond) is schizophrenic. So was Betty Paige. And Veronica Lake and Clara Bow. And Mary Todd Lincoln.

I am not implying that LM Is schizophrenic, but it is one of those illnesses that can permanently change cognition. So can Bipolar - and people with Bipolar look normal. Vivian Leigh, for example. Carrie Fisher. Mel Gibson. Catherine Zeta-Jones. Mariah Carey. Jane Pauley.

With treatment, some of the cognitive changes can be mitigated. I wouldn't say that any of these illnesses involves brain damage, per se - but their brains do have unusual activity when their symptoms are active.

IMO, merely going "under the radar" (including ghosting a friend who asked him to be part of a wedding and also his entire family, such that Mom doesn't even know what city he is in) is a set of symptoms, in and of itself. Unless there were tensions in his family that we don't know about (and they apparently didn't, either), ghosting one's parents and siblings is an unusual/atypical thing to do. A parent becoming worried enough to file a missing person report and hire a PI is concerned about this sudden change in behavior.

I do wonder if his desire to start a book club (to read Ted K with friends) was another bit of odd behavior, in retrospect. I guess the simplest explanation would be that somehow he was radicalized along the way (perhaps by losing his job in the capitalist start-up sector and seeing how brutal life can be as an unemployed 20-something; relative deprivation theory applied).

As LM becomes convinced of his own revolutionary ideas and ideals, he alienates/pushes away and eventually avoids the joint living situation (which was quasi-friendship to begin with, it was a shared rental experiment first and foremost, IMO). He eventually pushes away everyone who has known him previously.

Link below is about the incidence of homicide committed by Bipolar I individuals, during their depressive phase. One form of Bipolar homicide in this 22 year long study is...atruistic homicide during the depressive phase. That means killing someone in order to benefit others - or even with the delusional belief that the victim is better off, somehow.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073811005251

He was right at the age where Bipolar often becomes diagnosable. Wanting to save the world through revolution is arguably a manic kind of symptom - and when the world doesn't change, the depression is severe. Some Bipolars switch states rapidly (as in, within one 24 hour period; this is unusual, but my point is that the switch between the states is unpredictable and governed by the person's thoughts and their degree of illness).

Anyway, I'm on the same page as you with the idea that there's some kind of mental break going on here. There are other plausible theories, of course, but given the attorney he has hired, I think mental health is going to be an issue in this case.

IMO.

Great post.

 

[BrianJohnson]

He’s charged with that too.

Given it has to satisfy all 12 jurors to get a verdict my feeling is he will probably end up being found guilty of 2nd degree murder but good to see NY prosecutors going for the jugular

 

[ttjo]

Given it has to satisfy all 12 jurors to get a verdict my feeling is he will probably end up being found guilty of 2nd degree murder but good to see NY prosecutors going for the jugular

New York city Post 911, they don't mess around.

 

[BUF]

PC on CNN now

 

[Trino]

New York city Post 911, they don't mess around.

Family has $. Appeal and appeals.

 

[MassGuy]

Really good article from a few days ago which gets into why this terrorism angle (thus first degree murder charge) is appropriate.

Why the most serious charge in Luigi Mangione’s case is only second-degree murder | CNN

Given the image of the homicide captured on surveillance video – a dark-hooded figure with a gray backpack fatally shooting the executive in the back from several feet away – the case may seem like an obvious candidate for an even more severe charge.

amp.cnn.com

While state prosecutors have not tipped their hand on precisely what evidence they’re leaning on as they seek an indictment against Luigi Mangione, it’s possible details emerge that could allow them to upgrade the second-degree murder charge, legal experts told CNN.

A charge of first-degree murder would raise the case’s already sky-high profile while also reducing the possibility defense lawyers could argue down the second-degree murder charge to an even lesser one with a much lighter maximum sentence.

Terrorism proof could be key to an upgraded charge in the case​

If it appears, for instance, the suspect had planned the killing for a while, evidence may point to a terrorism angle that could merit a bump-up to a first-degree murder charge in New York, said David Shapiro, a lecturer at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

“Terrorism is defined, basically, as creating, intimidating the civilian population or influencing a government unit to act in a certain way,” Shapiro told CNN. “You can easily imagine a set of facts where Mangione was attempting to do the same or did the same. I’m sure there are a host of insurance company executives that are afraid of copycats.”

 

[Tiff23fr]

Yes - This is Terrorism and we can’t put up with it
IMO

 

[BrianJohnson]

100% it was terrorism, even though he killed BT he did it to strike fear into every healthcare executive, the true definition of terrorism - striking fear into a population or a sector of it

 

[ttjo]

Family has $. Appeal and appeals.

I agree but what he said below:

Given it has to satisfy all 12 jurors to get a verdict my feeling is he will probably end up being found guilty of 2nd degree murder

They just returned his serve, sent a message right back.

 

[Columbo Was The Best]

Mental illness can confer "permanent cognitive damage" on a person, of course, although many illnesses have periods of remission.

You can't tell who is mentally ill by their looks (many "normal" looking people are mentally ill; the guy who plays Trump on SNL (Darrell Hammond) is schizophrenic. So was Betty Paige. And Veronica Lake and Clara Bow. And Mary Todd Lincoln.

I am not implying that LM Is schizophrenic, but it is one of those illnesses that can permanently change cognition. So can Bipolar - and people with Bipolar look normal. Vivian Leigh, for example. Carrie Fisher. Mel Gibson. Catherine Zeta-Jones. Mariah Carey. Jane Pauley.

With treatment, some of the cognitive changes can be mitigated. I wouldn't say that any of these illnesses involves brain damage, per se - but their brains do have unusual activity when their symptoms are active.

IMO, merely going "under the radar" (including ghosting a friend who asked him to be part of a wedding and also his entire family, such that Mom doesn't even know what city he is in) is a set of symptoms, in and of itself. Unless there were tensions in his family that we don't know about (and they apparently didn't, either), ghosting one's parents and siblings is an unusual/atypical thing to do. A parent becoming worried enough to file a missing person report and hire a PI is concerned about this sudden change in behavior.

I do wonder if his desire to start a book club (to read Ted K with friends) was another bit of odd behavior, in retrospect. I guess the simplest explanation would be that somehow he was radicalized along the way (perhaps by losing his job in the capitalist start-up sector and seeing how brutal life can be as an unemployed 20-something; relative deprivation theory applied).

As LM becomes convinced of his own revolutionary ideas and ideals, he alienates/pushes away and eventually avoids the joint living situation (which was quasi-friendship to begin with, it was a shared rental experiment first and foremost, IMO). He eventually pushes away everyone who has known him previously.

Link below is about the incidence of homicide committed by Bipolar I individuals, during their depressive phase. One form of Bipolar homicide in this 22 year long study is...atruistic homicide during the depressive phase. That means killing someone in order to benefit others - or even with the delusional belief that the victim is better off, somehow.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073811005251

He was right at the age where Bipolar often becomes diagnosable. Wanting to save the world through revolution is arguably a manic kind of symptom - and when the world doesn't change, the depression is severe. Some Bipolars switch states rapidly (as in, within one 24 hour period; this is unusual, but my point is that the switch between the states is unpredictable and governed by the person's thoughts and their degree of illness).

Anyway, I'm on the same page as you with the idea that there's some kind of mental break going on here. There are other plausible theories, of course, but given the attorney he has hired, I think mental health is going to be an issue in this case.

IMO.

IMO.

I appreciate you posting all of this; I specialised in neuroscience but my knowledge of bipolar disorder is definitely not advanced. I teach students with four other conditions.

When I wrote ''it's unbelievable this boy became a murderer. He looks so normal'' I did not mean normal as in looking not mentally ill! I am full aware many mental illnesses are invisible in terms of symptoms; apologies my comment was not clear. I used normal in lieu of typical: doing sports, smiling all the time, plans, flirting with those two girls in the corridor (that funny picture), sunbathing,... all these positive vibes radiating from the pictures, just a twenty-something enjoying life out there, is not what one has in mind of someone who shot a fellow human being in the middle of the pavement.
There seems to be a ''gap'', a before and after with a middle that is unknown at present.

Of course, I do not know exactly when those pictures were taken but I just see a physical deterioration (even in the way he makes eye contact) that tells me this goes beyond his spondy diagnosis and anything purely physical.

Yes, that choice of attorney is very telling.

Jmoo.

 

[MassGuy]

100% it was terrorism, even though he killed BT he did it to strike fear into every healthcare executive, the true definition of terrorism - striking fear into a population or a sector of it

Absolutely. The only question was if the law was written in a way that would allow for it. He’s a terrorist who simply had a different motive than what we usually see (political or religious).

 

[FoxxTraxx]

100% it was terrorism, even though he killed BT he did it to strike fear into every healthcare executive, the true definition of terrorism - striking fear into a population or a sector of it

I wonder if he was planning more assassination attempts? I bet his laptop contained a lot more info on his state of mind than has been released to the public.

 

[SleuthJan]

I appreciate you posting all of this; I specialised in neuroscience but my knowledge of bipolar disorder is definitely not advanced. I teach students with four other conditions.

When I wrote ''it's unbelievable this boy became a murderer. He looks so normal'' I did not mean normal as in looking not mentally ill! I am full aware many mental illnesses are invisible in terms of symptoms; apologies my comment was not clear. I used normal in lieu of typical: doing sports, smiling all the time, plans, flirting with those two girls in the corridor (that funny picture), sunbathing,... all these positive vibes radiating from the pictures, just a twenty-something enjoying life out there, is not what one has in mind of someone who shot a fellow human being in the middle of the pavement.
There seems to be a ''gap'', a before and after with a middle that is unknown at present.

Of course, I do not know exactly when those pictures were taken but I just see a physical deterioration (even in the way he makes eye contact) that tells me this goes beyond his spondy diagnosis and anything purely physical.

Yes, that choice of attorney is very telling.

Jmoo.

I would be very interested to know if he succumbed to any sort of online indoctrination in that time period. Another poster brought up the AI whistleblower suicide as well. Both these young men are exhibiting a pattern of anti-technology sentiment, specifically AI development. Who is talking against AI currently? Is this something organic or more targeted?

 

[Tiff23fr]

Absolutely. The only question was if the law was written in a way that would allow for it. He’s a terrorist who simply had a different motive than what we usually see (political or religious).

If anyone KNOWINGLY helped him - they are Terrorists as well IMO

 

[MassGuy]

Wow. Last sentence.

NEW: Missing persons report: Nov. 18, missing persons report was filed. San Francisco Police reached out to NYPD and told them Mangione resembled the suspect. NYPD was in the process of vetting the tip, including reaching out to Mangione's mother. Mom told officers about the murder: "it might be something I could see him doing."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1869122883252834727

 

[SleuthJan]

Wow. Last sentence.

NEW: Missing persons report: Nov. 18, missing persons report was filed. San Francisco Police reached out to NYPD and told them Mangione resembled the suspect. NYPD was in the process of vetting the tip, including reaching out to Mangione's mother. Mom told officers about the murder: "it might be something I could see him doing."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1869122883252834727

I have 2 kids, and this coming from his mom is chilling. There must have been other incidents.

 

[gremlin444]

I have 2 kids, and this coming from his mom is chilling. There must have been other incidents.

Not necessarily, if she noticed his changes in behavior post surgery including the eventual cutting off of contact with friends and family. If he had had discussions with her about his growing feelings about the health insurance business before he went no contact, she could easily make a connection. There doesn't have to be prior "incidents"--like small crimes, school suspensions, etc.

 

[10ofRods]

I appreciate you posting all of this; I specialised in neuroscience but my knowledge of bipolar disorder is definitely not advanced. I teach students with four other conditions.

When I wrote ''it's unbelievable this boy became a murderer. He looks so normal'' I did not mean normal as in looking not mentally ill! I am full aware many mental illnesses are invisible in terms of symptoms; apologies my comment was not clear. I used normal in lieu of typical: doing sports, smiling all the time, plans, flirting with those two girls in the corridor (that funny picture), sunbathing,... all these positive vibes radiating from the pictures, just a twenty-something enjoying life out there, is not what one has in mind of someone who shot a fellow human being in the middle of the pavement.
There seems to be a ''gap'', a before and after with a middle that is unknown at present.

Of course, I do not know exactly when those pictures were taken but I just see a physical deterioration (even in the way he makes eye contact) that tells me this goes beyond his spondy diagnosis and anything purely physical.

Yes, that choice of attorney is very telling.

Jmoo.

Thank you for continuing this conversation - it's really helpful. I see what you mean. I am super jaded about people's instagram/selfie posts. They ALL try to "look normal" (and attractive). The tickling thing really got to me, though - as most women I know will not go off on a guy for tickling them, but they hate it. There was that one young woman who dated Brian Kohberger just one time - and he tickled her. Which she told him to stop when she wasn't giggling and he did it again. That's the trouble with tickling. In my own life, my dislike of being tickled was intense and I worked really hard...to become...not ticklish.

What I see are a lot of young people all appearing to enjoy life (much like most of my students). But then, on the flip side, many of them are not measuring up to their own personal goals or they are anxious or they are depressed. Or bored. People who appear to smile all the time are already suspicious to me - and recently, I was told that my own smile in a photo was not "big enough" etc. I missed out on the big smile practice (which, actually, my students say they do - in the mirror - for their selfies! I always ask why they won't smile at each other, then, when introducing themselves in a group work project).

His parents and siblings and college friends likely saw all this as well - and thought, "Oh, he's fine, he's normal."

Now that I type that, the word "bipolar" comes to mind again. Yep, they are very good at being the life of the party - until they are not.

Further, the current Instagram/TikTok subculture encourages a false presentation of self, as apparently so many young people view their lives as a kind of personal reality show. This includes a suspension of common sense or morality in some cases (in order to get a rise from the audience, or to create a "plot;" these platforms encourage amateur dramatists and comedians).

Anyway, note that I'm staying away from personality disorders at present, because of the months-long disappearance of LM from his family's radar (and his friends). Something not quite right. But I could be totally wrong and it could be a character disorder (if it is ASPD, then there's likely a heritable component to that as well).

So glad to meet a neuroscientist! I'm more on the behavioral side. Because LM is so intelligent (his SAT scores predict an IQ of at least 140), well-off, well-educated, athletic-ish, and good-looking, he's expected to be the "life of the party." This is a role that didn't end well for him, either in terms of family or friend relationships.

Just my two cents. I feel it's going to be a long time until a jury is seated. Indeed, I can see him pleading out to not guilty by reason of insanity to a second degree murder charge. The amount of heat that will be generated by his trial is perhaps not in the best interests of the public (I don't know, welcome opinions).

JMO