NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #11 *Arrest*

[legalese]

I wonder if he knew that before he committed his crimes and I wonder if he knows it now.

What I envision, though, is that his supporters will be outside the Criminal Courts, in fairly high numbers (enough to make the press show up and interview many of them). They'll have signs and give many interviews/speeches. So, the issue *will* get publicity at trial - just not in the courtroom (although if Luigi takes the stand, a lot will come in - they cannot deny him his rights at the trial, either, it just won't be televised).

Agreed, LM has already gotten plenty of publicity to share his “message,” and he would get even more during (but not at) trial.

Even if he takes the stand, the rules of evidence still apply. There very well could be testimony and evidence related to his medical problems/experience if relevant, but he’s not going to be able to sit there and rail against the healthcare industry for 15 minutes.

 

[BrianJohnson]

Ugh, I hate this SO MUCH. This rock star treatment of what is, after all, just a murderous bum.

This enormous contingent of LE from various agencies is:

A) completely unnecessary as he’s in cuffs and 2 cops would have been enough for safety’s sake, and:

B) does nothing but aggrandize the celebrity that has accrued to this two-bit murderer.

This is Secret Service levels of security. This is Taylor Swift to the tenth power levels of security. This is I don’t know what, but it looks like a “Mayor Eric Adams Production.”

Either the mayor is trying to distract from his own problems right now, or, as I think most likely, he is making a literal show out of “I got my man, because it’s MY LE perp-walking him, so I’ll show everyone not to mess with MY city.”

I’m all in favor of no one messing with NYC, but this stinks to me of Eric Adams’ egotism. A gratuitous spectacle that only enhances and glorifies this murderer.

I know the city said this was to prevent someone from trying to free LM, but that doesn’t ring true to me.

JMO of course.

Even the bloody mayor turned up too, you would think it was a head of state visiting or something or King Charles not a cold blooded murderer, all this farce did was increase his fan base and turn him even more into a cult/celeb

 

[LaborDayRN]

Being from the UK I admit to having very limited knowledge of American legal matters but here in the UK we have a person called Director of Public Prosecutions who when the police send cases his way he decides whether the evidence threshold matches the definition of the law, is there a similar type of person in the USA who would have examined all the evidence and determined it fits the threshold?

We have something called the Grand Jury system in the U.S.

Types of Juries

There are two types of juries serving different functions in the federal trial courts.

www.uscourts.gov

 

[Sundog]

I'm curious about the possible influence of the cousin politician. Influencing, possibly the non-appearance of family. It must be super awkward to navigate that office about now.

It's very sad. The cousin is a victim of LM's actions, and I hope that the majority of his constituents understand this. With 10 siblings of that generation, and 30 or so of LM's generation, I doubt it would be possible to influence the family as a whole. I suspect they are all trying to come to terms with what happened in their own ways and at this time just prefer their privacy. Perhaps a family spokesperson will be selected at some point - either a family member or someone else - and we will hear from that person regarding LM's immediate family, at least.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Life in prison seems the best deal for both pros and defense.

Life without parole as the best deal for the defense??

 

[fred&edna]

Life without parole as the best deal for the defense??

Better than the death penalty the Fed charges "could" bring. But, or course, death may be better than life in prison in the eyes of some. jmo

 

[MassGuy]

I don't understand it - it only brings more sensationalism to the case. I'd think they'd want to deescalate that. Why not just press murder charges and get it done.

Because they wanted the possibility of first degree murder, as opposed to second degree which could see him get something like 15 or 25-life.

The lack of a standard first degree murder charge there is insane to me.

Before we ever heard his name, I said this guy was behaving like a terrorist. That’s cool, but the law needs to fit in order to charge him with something like that.

I think it does, but the optics are bad. Especially with all the grandstanding that’s going on with Adams, and that insane perp walk - it makes it look like a political move.

 

[NuttMegg]

Almost like they're trying to send a message to the 'proles', lest any others get similar ideas. A show of force not afforded any other common killer that I can recall.

Mentally ranking through the murder cases I've followed here on WS, this one is not significant to me, ie methodology, only one victim. Yes a real human being died, his family is suffering. I take a kind of chessboard view, what's new is the reaction, and how it touches me as a vulnerable health care consumer.
Ironically the first case I followed here was that of Bobbi Jo Stinnet in Missouri. Lisa Marie Montgomery ripped Bobbi Jo's 8 mo fetus from her womb, the baby lived, Bobbi Jo died (2004).. I say "ironic" because the murderer was tried by the feds, and she received the dp partly because of crossing borders of 2 states in the crime. Same as Luigi, 2 (or more) states. But shooting is not as bad, imo, as performing surgery on a pregnant woman you've shoved to the floor and kidnapping a living fetus or baby, leaving the mom to bleed out.

 

[legalese]

I wonder if LM's attorney will be successful if she challenges the parallel investigations and charges as constituting "double jeopardy" as she has initially stated. And if she is successful, I wonder which court will proceed with their charges - the feds or the state.

ETA - The federal charges were filed first, although I don't know if that would be a factor.

She won’t.

Courts use the Blockburger test:

In Blockburger v. United States, 284 U.S. 299, 304 (1932), the U.S. Supreme Court articulated the seminal test for determining whether offenses qualify for this double jeopardy protection. The test requires reviewing courts to evaluate the elements of each statutory provision to determine whether each requires proof of an element which the other does not. If not, double jeopardy bars additional prosecution and punishment.

On the Blockburger Test

www.ohiobar.org

It’s not uncommon for state and federal statutes to require proof of one or more different elements.

 

[ilovewings]

I don't understand it - it only brings more sensationalism to the case. I'd think they'd want to deescalate that. Why not just press murder charges and get it done.

I so agree-- it just does not make sense and adds nothing to this case

 

[Charlot123]

I think feds would be better. They keep the perps out of the limelight. No one saw Tsarnaev's face after he gave the camera the finger. The penalty would be the same. Also it wouldn't involve terrorism. Stalking is more of a turnoff to the general public.

I remember it was so crazy how everyone was all over Tsarnaev. "Free Johar" tee shirts and girls crying. I'm glad he's hidden from view. No one mentions him anymore.

Also: Che was a revolutionary. Along with Fidel Castro, they changed things. Not for the best IMO, but they changed things. This Luigi guy isn't gonna change anything.

JMO: Che is just an example of a lousy politician's heritage denigrated by printing his face on kitchy production (see attachment; the bourgeois rubber plant made it for me). In seriousness, it is all economy, so one always wonders what people like LM signify at each given moment.

So about the feds - since they failed to arrest LM, transferring him now would be a huge mistake, IMHO.

Johar had as little potential for martyrdom as the Unabomber, girls aside. Martyrs are projection of certain figures on the causes they are thought for stand for. Tsarnaev's cause had zero potential for support in the US. The polls would have probably looked very different.

 

[Friday Fan]

Better than the death penalty the Fed charges "could" bring. But, or course, death may be better than life in prison in the eyes of some. jmo

MOO: The feds won't pursue the death penalty.

In the federal system all first degree murder cases are death penalty eligible. But it is rarely pursued.

MOO: I would think they would use metrics. Is this person at risk to escape? Does this person have a significant criminal history? Were weapons of mass destruction used, such as a bomb? Was the crime extremely heinous? I'm just taking pot shots here. The murder of BT doesn't seem to up the ante to me.

Here is the list of federal death row inmates.

List of Federal Death Row Prisoners | Death Penalty Information Center

The Death Penalty Information Center (DPI) is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to serve the media, policymakers, and the general public…

deathpenaltyinfo.org

 

[MassGuy]

Almost like they're trying to send a message to the 'proles', lest any others get similar ideas. A show of force not afforded any other common killer that I can recall.

This guy is not a common criminal, as what happened here opens the door to something far larger and much more terrifying.

This is different than every other murder case I’ve ever followed; there’s no comparison other than this guy killed someone.

The broader concern, which I believe to be very real, is that this is going to become the new way of settling scores.

Copycats targeting politicians, business leaders, anyone that people disagree with. Your difference of opinion is a justification for murder.

Your common murder does not have these implications. So you respond by throwing the book at him.

What you do not do, is create a spectacle that undermines what you are trying to achieve. What they are doing is the opposite of what their goal is.

They are turning a cold blooded killer into a martyr with these optics.

 

[Tiff23fr]

I am still wondering why he wanted to land with the Feds.
Something to this, IMO
This is now clearly a part of the premeditation. IMO

 

[Sundog]

I thought it was interesting that at the press conference yesterday by LM's attorney (following LM's appearance in federal court), she ended her statement with "Mr. Mangione is grateful for the support" (not sure if this was the exact wording, but something very similar, IIRC).

I'm guessing that LM likely asked her to say that, or at least get some message out to his supporters and she obliged. After all, it would fit her strategy as well, to continue to reinforce that there is support out there for her client.

 

[MassGuy]

I thought it was interesting that at the press conference yesterday by LM's attorney (following LM's appearance in federal court), she ended her statement with "Mr. Mangione is grateful for the support" (not sure if this was the exact wording, but something very similar, IIRC).

I'm guessing that LM likely asked her to say that, or at least get some message out to his supporters and she obliged. After all, it would fit her strategy as well, to continue to reinforce that there is support out there for her client.

If I was his attorney, I’d make that statement regardless; it’s a brilliant strategy.

It plays up the level of support he has, and leans into the idea that he’s some sort of victim here, and that he did nothing wrong.

 

[waldojabba]

Just catching up on the tv news coverage of this today, and a couple of things really piss me off.

First, there was no reason to do this insane perp walk with all those heavily armed cops. He could have been transported quietly and secretly, without a single camera capturing him. It plays up the underdog/martyr image he has cultivated with a significant minority of the public. I mean, just look at this fricken picture.
View attachment 552937

Secondly, and related to this, there was absolutely no reason for Mayor Adams to be present. He shouldn't be saying a word, as it is not in the interest of justice for him to be discussing this case. He's turning this into some political sideshow, with himself at the center of it. It makes the case political, and hurts the terrorism argument as a result.

I wish there was some way to just try this Federally, and have New York step aside.

So ridiculous right? Are they hoping the footage will be used as part of the Netflix docudrama ? I cannot imagine how anybody thought this was a good idea. But once again here we are - in a reality tv show world

Besides making them selves look foolish, imo, they are making the killer look like a leader of a movement and giving him importance he really doesn't deserve
Pretty much the opposite of what they should be doing.
I am even more convinced that this case won't ever go to trial.
There will be a plea . And I don't see him serving life without parole
There will be lots of maneuvering behind the scenes on this one
His lawyer is very sharp, the family has means and clout and well, we all know how that can work out...
JMO

 

[JDG]

I am still wondering why he wanted to land with the Feds.
Something to this, IMO
This is now clearly a part of the premeditation. IMO

IMO, LM wants to be famous/infamous.

So far, he’s succeeding in his crazy quest.

 

[JDG]

When is the next court date please?

 

[Sunshynn]

I'm guessing that LM likely asked her to say that, or at least get some message out to his supporters and she obliged. After all, it would fit her strategy as well, to continue to reinforce that there is support out there for her client.

MOO, but I guarantee it would be in the best strategy to let his supporters know that someone let them know that they are seen and recognized. No better way to ensure that they will continue to voice and demonstrate that support outside the courtroom for the media.