Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[JennieM]

UK, France and Ukraine to work on 'plan to stop the fighing' - Starmer​

In an interview to the BBC this morning, UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer said his conversations with Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky, US President Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron have led to an agreement that the UK - along with France and "possibly one or two others" - will work with Ukraine on a "plan to stop the fighting and then we'll discuss that plan with the United States".

"I think we've got a step in the right direction", Starmer told Laura Kuenssberg.

Zelensky tells BBC Ukraine 'ready to sign' minerals deal with US

The Ukrainian president's comments to Laura Kuenssberg came after he failed to sign the deal at the White House on Friday.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

I love Starmer's thoughts.

Starmer is a true diplomat.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I have a feeling that Prime Minister Starmer talked some sense into <modsnip - name calling is not allowed> Zelenskyy and made him understand that he needs to stop demanding things and work with others to get a plan to stop the fighting. JMO.

 

[JennieM]

I have a feeling that Prime Minister Starmer talked some sense into <modsnip - name calling is not allowed> Zelenskyy and made him understand that he needs to stop demanding things and work with others to get a plan to stop the fighting. JMO.

Starmer has agreed with Z’s argument that security guarantees are necessary. It is someone else he needs to talk some sense to…

 

[Jade]

Saturday Night Live featured the Trump Vance fiasco.

Mike Myers as Elon Musk in "his office" showing how Musk was running the country from the Oval Office last week wearing jeans, tshirt and ball cap while the hypocritical Trump makes fun of the President of a country at war wearing his work clothes.

The actor playing Secretary of State Marco Rubio just sits there dissociated.

As one critic notes it is all hardly funny given the embarrassing spectacle of the Ukrainian ambush/meeting.

All imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Starmer has agreed with Z’s argument that security guarantees are necessary. It is someone else he needs to talk some sense to…

Of course security guarantees are crucial. The problem is that Zelenskyy wants everything handed to him all at once.

He doesn't understand that he can't just tell other countries what they have to do and when to do it. I think that PM Starmer is finally getting through his thick skull. I think this is great news. JMO.

 

[JennieM]

12m ago09.28 GMT

Starmer says he does not 'trust' Putin who he warns will 'come again' if given the opportunity​

Starmer says he does not “trust” Vladimir Putin, saying the Russian president would “come again” if given the chance to. Hence the critical need for “security gurantees”, the UK prime minister said. Starmer said he does trust both Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Donald Trump. He was asked in the BBC interview if Zelenskyy has “done anything wrong” and Starmer said he hadn’t, adding that the Ukrainian president has bravely served his country as a wartime leader since Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022.

UK and France to work with Ukraine on peace plan, Starmer says, as European leaders arrive for defence summit – live

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy to join European, Canadian and Turkish leaders for summit

www.theguardian.com

 

[Lucy6226]

What is a SNP MP? I've never heard of that before. Is it some kind of UK official or elected politician?

A Member of Parliament from the Scottish National Party

 

[SouthAussie]

In case people are not aware, this is the kind of 'peace' Russia has wanted .... it is Russia's 2022 peace proposal.

• Ukraine was expected to cede Crimea and the Donbas region outright
• while also accepting the ongoing occupation of areas then under Russian control until Moscow deemed that its conditions had been fully met
• Kyiv would also have been forced to grant Russian the status of official state language
• and adopt a range of laws targeting Ukrainian religion, history, and national identity
• Russia called for the Ukrainian army to be drastically reduced to a skeleton force of just fifty thousand personnel
• tight restrictions were to be imposed on the quantity of armor Ukraine could possess, the types of missiles the country could develop, and the size of the Ukrainian Air Force
• The Kremlin’s peace plan also obliged Ukraine to renounce its NATO membership ambitions and agree not to enter into bilateral alliances or seek military aid from Western countries
• Russia also somewhat absurdly insisted on a veto over any international response to future attacks on Ukraine

Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[LibraStarr]

The logic being pushed—that Ukraine should just hand over its land to stop the fighting—is like telling a victim of assault to just give their attacker what they want so the violence ends. It ignores the fact that Russia is the one choosing to invade, kill, and destroy. Expecting Ukraine to surrender rather than expecting Russia to stop its aggression is not a call for peace—it’s a demand for submission.

Russia is the aggressor, full stop. A ceasefire wouldn’t stop Russia, it would just give them time to regroup and attack again later. We’ve seen this pattern before. Russia doesn’t stop because they’re offered peace; they stop when they’re forced to. Pretending otherwise only rewards their aggression and sets the stage for the next invasion.

IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

12m ago09.28 GMT

Starmer says he does not 'trust' Putin who he warns will 'come again' if given the opportunity​

Starmer says he does not “trust” Vladimir Putin, saying the Russian president would “come again” if given the chance to. Hence the critical need for “security gurantees”, the UK prime minister said. Starmer said he does trust both Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Donald Trump. He was asked in the BBC interview if Zelenskyy has “done anything wrong” and Starmer said he hadn’t, adding that the Ukrainian president has bravely served his country as a wartime leader since Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022.

UK and France to work with Ukraine on peace plan, Starmer says, as European leaders arrive for defence summit – live

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy to join European, Canadian and Turkish leaders for summit

www.theguardian.com

Starmer truly is a solid diplomat. He would know how war-weary Zelenskyy is and is stepping up to support him in a very diplomatic manner. Everybody needs a good friend when they are feeling down.

 

[STAGNUM]

If Zelenkyy was wary about the deal before flying to the US, why is saying he wants to sign it after the Oval Office disaster he made? Did he have some kind of revelation? JMO.

Zelenskyy Says He’s Ready To Sign Minerals Deal After White House Clash

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted a lengthy thread on X Saturday, stating he would sign the minerals deal, but said the Ukrainian people “need to know that America is on our side.”

www.forbes.com

read the article you posted..

 

[JennieM]

Starmer's three points for a lasting peace​

In his interview with the BBC, Sir Keir Starmer listed three things he believes are needed for a lasting peace in Ukraine:

• A "strong Ukraine" to fight on if necessary and to be in a strong position to negotiate
• A European element with security guarantees
• A US backstop.

"All three" need to be in place to guarantee peace, Starmer said.

"You can't have a deal that falls apart and that's what Zelensky is worried about," he said, before adding that Zelensky was "rightly concerned" a proposed deal "had to hold".

Asked about what the "line" on the ground between Russia and Ukraine would be, Starmer declined to answer, saying only: "That's obviously a subject for discussion."

Zelensky tells BBC Ukraine 'ready to sign' minerals deal with US

The Ukrainian president's comments to Laura Kuenssberg came after he failed to sign the deal at the White House on Friday.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 39678]

A Member of Parliament from the Scottish National Party

Thanks. No wonder I didn't know what it meant.

I'm not too worried about that persons opinion. Anymore than the mayor of Sacramento making a statement like that. JMO.

 

[STAGNUM]

Apologies if this was already posted, this thread moves fast!

An SNP MP has said that Donald Trump's second state visit to the UK cannot go ahead if he refuses to show further support for Ukraine.
Trump accused Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelensky of "gambling with World War Three" during a fiery showdown at the White House on Friday.

Stephen Gethins, the SNP's foreign affairs spokesperson, called Trump's behaviour towards Zelensky "grotesque" and said it amounted to "bullying".

SNP MP calls for Trump state visit to be scrapped

A second state visit cannot go ahead if the US president does not show further support for Ukraine, Stephen Gethins says.

www.bbc.com

I think Zalenskyy is about to be Knighted by King Charles. Trump will go ballistic, but hey, he got his picture on Time Magazine.

 

[Betty P]

Starmer is a true diplomat.

He and Macron are showing true leadership. Starmer seems well aware of the threats to peace and stability and are dealing with them as best they can. It’s an extremely volatile and unpredictable situation with a powerful, once-trusted ally now gone rogue.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

A Member of Parliament from the Scottish National Party

Thanks. No wonder I didn't now what it meant.

I'm not too worried about that persons opinion. Anymore than the mayor of Sacramento making a statement like that.

 

[JennieM]

Speaking before his departure for London, Tusk said that “it has to be clear that … Poland is on the side of Ukraine, without any buts,” saying this was in Polish national interest.

Tusk also pointedly said that Europe should still work on “the closest possible alliance” with the US, even if the US administration’s position is “not as straightforward as ours” on the Ukraine-Russia war.

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk is a staunch ally of Ukraine, with Poland providing extensive military aid to Kyiv since the full-scale Russian invasion. Photograph: Paweł Supernak/EPA

He then went on to talk about Europe’s military awakening, calling for increased defence spending as “an additional insurance policy,” while insisting that “being self-reliant does not mean being by itself”.

“A Europe that understands its global potential, its status as a superpower, will not be an alternative to the US, but the most wanted ally. In the end, that’s what Trump wants, for Europe to take much greater responsibility for its security,” he said.

“It’s a paradox, someone rightly pointed this out, that 500 million Europeans are asking 300 million Americans to defend them from 140 millions Russians,” he said.

He then extensively quoted data from the latest report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies, showing the military advantage of Europe and Ukraine over Russia.

He also said that he would support Italian prime minister Giorgia Meloni’s plan to call an emergency EU-US summit, and urge partners to increase military presence on the eastern flank of Nato, including in Finland, the Baltics, and in Poland.

UK and France to work with Ukraine on peace plan to be presented to US, Starmer says, before major defence summit – live

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy to join European, Canadian and Turkish leaders for summit on Ukraine

www.theguardian.com

 

[Betty P]

I have a feeling that Prime Minister Starmer talked some sense into pig headed Zelenskyy and made him understand that he needs to stop demanding things and work with others to get a plan to stop the fighting. JMO.

Starmer is asking for the same treaty provisions that Zelenskyy requested. Security guarantees. It makes no sense to broker a peace agreement that leaves the victim completely defenseless while trusting the hostile invading country to cease their aggression. Leaving Russia free to attack a defenseless Ukraine while plundering their assets renders the entire peace agreement useless.

Do pro Trump people really believe that Russia won’t continue their invasion of an unprotected Ukraine?

A treaty without enforcement isn’t a treaty at all.

 

[LibraStarr]

Starmer is asking for the same treaty provisions that Zelenskyy requested. Security guarantees. It makes no sense to broker a peace agreement that leaves the victim completely defenseless while trusting the hostile invading country to cease their aggression. Leaving Russia free to attack a defenseless Ukraine while plundering their assets renders the entire peace agreement useless.

Do pro Trump people really believe that Russia won’t continue their invasion of an unprotected Ukraine?

A treaty without enforcement isn’t a treaty at all.

Exactly. Zelenskyy isn’t making demands he’s just asking for clarity. If the U.S. wants Ukraine to agree to a deal, it’s only logical that they’d want to know what, if anything, is actually guaranteed.

Ukraine already tried trusting vague promises with the Budapest Memorandum, and look where that got them—Russia invaded anyway, and no one stepped in to stop it. Now people expect them to make the same mistake again, but this time with Trump, who has openly undermined NATO and cozied up to Putin? No country in their right mind should take his word for anything without clear, enforceable guarantees.