4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #100

[mrjitty]

So in Green, there was a direct match before an arrest. In the case of BK, there was a match with his father before the arrest, and then a direct match with BK once he was arrested. How significant is this difference?

The point of Green is the FGG is not incriminating evidence. I don't see how this matters to the holding in Green.

MOO

 

[Nila Aella]

So in Green, there was a direct match before an arrest. In the case of BK, there was a match with his father before the arrest, and then a direct match with BK once he was arrested. How significant is this difference?

There was a paternal match.
Should someone be arrested on a paternal match initiated from an IGG result?
A tip (IGG) which does not produce one name.

That policy question again.
Why is there policy to confirm the validity of an IGG result before an arrest?

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

One can disagree with the policy in Green, but it is clear what the judicial policy is, and why it was so held. So I simply don't see any great conspiracy from the FBI here

Of course it may be that the Courts will come around to the idea they do have to disclose all the searches that they do in any DNA databases.

MOO

 

[wendy44]

I bet the IGG did produce one name. If I'm looking at the family tree I've built and there's one person in that tree sitting there attending school in Pullman 10 miles from the murders--that's my one name. The next step is to confirm it with a trash pull at the home where he currently is--the trash pull confirms that the father of the unknown DNA lives there. This is confirming the validity of the IGG result before an arrest.
JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I bet the IGG did produce one name. If I'm looking at the family tree I've built and there's one person in that tree sitting there attending school in Pullman 10 miles from the murders--that's my one name. The next step is to confirm it with a trash pull at the home where he currently is--the trash pull confirms that the father of the unknown DNA lives there. This is confirming the validity of the IGG result before an arrest.
JMO

yes.

And it is the trash pull DNA that is the evidence, not the IGG (according to Green).

 

[wendy44]

The details of Green don't need to be exactly the same to be cited as precedent. It's the legal concept of discovery and what is material to the guilt or innocence of the defense. The court in Green appears to be addressing this for the first time and found that IGG is investigatory in nature and not exculpatory or material to the defense, therefore not discoverable to the defense. It goes back to the original argument in all this--there is precedent for the FBI saying this information is not discoverable and the courts have previously ruled in their favor on that.
JMO

 

[jepop]

The details of Green don't need to be exactly the same to be cited as precedent. It's the legal concept of discovery and what is material to the guilt or innocence of the defense. The court in Green appears to be addressing this for the first time and found that IGG is investigatory in nature and not exculpatory or material to the defense, therefore not discoverable to the defense. It goes back to the original argument in all this--there is precedent for the FBI saying this information is not discoverable and the courts have previously ruled in their favor on that.
JMO

Yes. The state explicated all of this in their initial motion for protective order and follow up, that the IGG is not material to the defendant's guilt innocence. They probably cited Green way back then. Jmo

 

[mrjitty]

Yes. The state explicated all of this in their initial motion for protective order and follow up, that the IGG is not material to the defendant's guilt innocence. They probably cited Green way back then. Jmo

I recently went down a similar rabbit hole on Alt Suspects. I think what is counter intuitive to lay people is that all these alt suspects, tips etc can only raise doubt if there is actual evidence tying them to the crime.

So returning to this case, just because there is DNA found in the house, and you want to turn that into an speculative Alts via searches of DNA databases - that is not going to fly.

The reason is that no one could ever be convicted if every random tip and lead had to be chased down.

And much of this stuff will never be admissible in the first place

Anyway - a fascinating area which will no doubt be regulated more in future I guess.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

The details of Green don't need to be exactly the same to be cited as precedent. It's the legal concept of discovery and what is material to the guilt or innocence of the defense. The court in Green appears to be addressing this for the first time and found that IGG is investigatory in nature and not exculpatory or material to the defense, therefore not discoverable to the defense. It goes back to the original argument in all this--there is precedent for the FBI saying this information is not discoverable and the courts have previously ruled in their favor on that.
JMO

I agree Wendy. There is no great conspiracy here. Just rational judicial policy.

Of course if my DNA is ever found at a homicide, I will strongly dislike this policy!

YMMV!

 

[jepop]

I recently went down a similar rabbit hole on Alt Suspects. I think what is counter intuitive to lay people is that all these alt suspects, tips etc can only raise doubt if there is actual evidence tying them to the crime.

So returning to this case, just because there is DNA found in the house, and you want to turn that into an speculative Alts via searches of DNA databases - that is not going to fly.

The reason is that no one could ever be convicted if every random tip and lead had to be chased down.

And much of this stuff will never be admissible in the first place

Anyway - a fascinating area which will no doubt be regulated more in future I guess.

MOO

Yea it's very interesting and good work.

It's interesting how defense wants to have their cake and eat it too. One of their earlier arguments in the days of triple J imo was they needed to see the work product of the fbi to explore possible alt suspects in the family tree! MTC x3. Triple J found for them having the right to some access to the IGG materials on this basis imo amongst others. Oct 2023 order. Culminating in the family tree material being handed over to them in Jan 2024 ( redacted order by triple JJJ). Then of course come MTS time and suddenly the IGG is unconstitutional and impeding their client's rights ( and the alternative suspects they never found on the family tree one assumes). Ce la vie!

 

[Maat99]

So returning to this case, just because there is DNA found in the house, and you want to turn that into an speculative Alts via searches of DNA databases - that is not going to fly.

This makes perfect sense to me. Anyone who leaves their home is potentially sprinkling dna all over the place. If someone used the bathroom at Wendy’s, for example, that shouldnt make their dna fair game if the place is robbed a week later. But if dna from someone who doesn’t work there is found on the cash register, that is a different story.

So back to this, plenty of reasons for dna on a stair rail, only one reason for dna on a knife sheath found under the body of someone murdered with a knife.

 

[Arkay]

The details of Green don't need to be exactly the same to be cited as precedent. It's the legal concept of discovery and what is material to the guilt or innocence of the defense. The court in Green appears to be addressing this for the first time and found that IGG is investigatory in nature and not exculpatory or material to the defense, therefore not discoverable to the defense. It goes back to the original argument in all this--there is precedent for the FBI saying this information is not discoverable and the courts have previously ruled in their favor on that.
JMO

This is how I read Green as well. The precedent seems established.

IMO this is a bump in the road, just a delay tactic by the defense, still Looking in Loophole Land for any means to dismiss Bryan’s DNA, found at the most relevant location.

JMO

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[Charlot123]

I'm confused by your use of the word leukocytes. Leukocytes are white blood cells.

MOO

Indeed. You get DNA from any nucleated cells. Probably lifting DNA from blood that has many WBC is easier that from “touch DNA” which contains sweat and dead epithelium (not always the best source of DNA as it may already lose nucleus). [Mod Snip No Link}

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“There may be, as you say, other people that creates concern or issues about that need to be investigated further,” Hippler said. “But I’m not sure that that diminishes the probable cause for Mr. Kohberger if his DNA is found on a knife sheath found on or near the victim — who was stabbed with said alleged knife, that would have been in said alleged sheath.”

So how did a sheath for a fixed-blade knife get there, and how did Bryan Kohberger’s skin cells allegedly wind up on it if he was not involved? Taylor acknowledged that is the most significant issue ahead at trial.

“I mean, that’s the ultimate question that will be before a jury,” Taylor said. “What does a knife sheath at a scene mean?”

Hippler shot back: “If you’re killed with a knife, that probably means a lot.”

“It might,” she said.

Unidentified blood DNA at Idaho college student homicides home could aid Kohberger defense - East Idaho News

BOISE (Idaho Statesman) — Detectives who investigated the Moscow college student homicides found blood at the crime scene from two still-unidentified males, attorneys for the man charged with murder revealed at a recent hearing, hinting to a possible legal defense strategy at trial. An unknown...

www.eastidahonews.com

 

[LinasK]

One can disagree with the policy in Green, but it is clear what the judicial policy is, and why it was so held. So I simply don't see any great conspiracy from the FBI here

Of course it may be that the Courts will come around to the idea they do have to disclose all the searches that they do in any DNA databases.

MOO

To me, having other suspects isn't exculpatory, it merely suggests accomplices.

 

[LinasK]

I recently went down a similar rabbit hole on Alt Suspects. I think what is counter intuitive to lay people is that all these alt suspects, tips etc can only raise doubt if there is actual evidence tying them to the crime.

So returning to this case, just because there is DNA found in the house, and you want to turn that into an speculative Alts via searches of DNA databases - that is not going to fly.

The reason is that no one could ever be convicted if every random tip and lead had to be chased down.

And much of this stuff will never be admissible in the first place

Anyway - a fascinating area which will no doubt be regulated more in future I guess.

MOO

Exactly, and I've thought about this recently because I have this random desire to touch items when I'm shopping in a brick-and-mortar store. Now if that item is ever shoplifted or used in a crime, I'm implicated simply because I touched it?

 

[stemkb]

Howard Blum: "The car - they never have him behind the wheel."

This is why those tower pings near Genesee and Uniontown are important because, at the same moment, a white sedan is captured on camera returning along Johnson Road back into Pullman. Cell tower and video record his movement together, validating each other. Similar to how network records show him in Clarkston, where SV1 is captured on camera in synchrony visiting Albertsons Grocery store. Defendant is then recorded on camera exiting that same vehicle.

He started out well by powering off his phone, but this is a two-stage process, and the return journey can be just as incriminating as the approach. Thought he was being clever going the "long way around", but likely needed last minute guidance out in the sticks.

1st big mistake: Failing to purge/minimize his digital exhaust (more about this later)
2nd big mistake: Losing the knife sheath
3rd big mistake: Turning his phone back on too soon

All opinion.

 

[Megnut]

This is why those tower pings near Genesee and Uniontown are important because, at the same moment, a white sedan is captured on camera returning along Johnson Road back into Pullman. Cell tower and video record his movement together, validating each other. Similar to how network records show him in Clarkston, where SV1 is captured on camera in synchrony visiting Albertsons Grocery store. Defendant is then recorded on camera exiting that same vehicle.

He started out well by powering off his phone, but this is a two-stage process, and the return journey can be just as incriminating as the approach. Thought he was being clever going the "long way around", but likely needed last minute guidance out in the sticks.

1st big mistake: Failing to purge/minimize his digital exhaust (more about this later)
2nd big mistake: Losing the knife sheath
3rd big mistake: Turning his phone back on too soon

All opinion.

4th: shopping on Amazon for a murder weapon if indeed he did

 

[jepop]

This is why those tower pings near Genesee and Uniontown are important because, at the same moment, a white sedan is captured on camera returning along Johnson Road back into Pullman. Cell tower and video record his movement together, validating each other. Similar to how network records show him in Clarkston, where SV1 is captured on camera in synchrony visiting Albertsons Grocery store. Defendant is then recorded on camera exiting that same vehicle.

He started out well by powering off his phone, but this is a two-stage process, and the return journey can be just as incriminating as the approach. Thought he was being clever going the "long way around", but likely needed last minute guidance out in the sticks.

1st big mistake: Failing to purge/minimize his digital exhaust (more about this later)
2nd big mistake: Losing the knife sheath
3rd big mistake: Turning his phone back on too soon

All opinion.

Hence, the importance of AT&T x1 warrant. Jmo