4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #102

[girlhasnoname]

For me, where the 9-1-1 dispatcher got most annoying and stern was insisting they locate their defibrillator. Am I on a different planet? Is it commonplace to have a home defibrillator? We have them at work and church, and I sometimes see them in public places, but the girls ID’d their location as a house. Just wondering why she would have assumed they had that medical devise. OMO..

I don't think it's especially uncommon in off campus housing, I bet they have Narcan also. It may have been provided to the home by the owner or rental company.

JMO

 

[cherrybier]

Is it at all possible that the 2 young lady housemates (and HJ) will not have to set eyes on BK at the trial? Can't there be a partition placed between them? Has that ever been done at a trial before?

I have seen witnesses testify in a different room but I believe they were minor witnesses.

Don't think I've seen adults be separated from the defendant.

 

[NCWatcher]

I have seen witnesses testify in a different room but I believe they were minor witnesses.

Don't think I've seen adults be separated from the defendant.

I'm pretty sure the defense would object. It's so uncommon to separate witnesses like that. Even older children aren't routinely separated so why would these "young ladies" be? I can't imagine the judge agreeing. And while we don't know for sure, it's not clear BF even saw the intruder and we know DM said she could not identify BK's photograph as the person she saw. And finally, the defendant must be presumed innocent in court. Using screens so witnesses don't have to see him hardly does that. I'm not even sure the prosecution would be in favor. Sure, as I said above, separation could imply the defendant's guilt but it could also suggest the witnesses might be lying. Not that I am saying they will do that. I'm not. But it is probably easier to lie if not looking at the defendant.
MOO

 

[fcavanaugh]

I think it is totally natural for the average person to have thoughts about how it maybe could have helped if emergency services knew about the incident sooner. The statement was not released by professionals giving expert opinions, it was from victim's family and is therefore heavily biased.

Of course anyone with a heart and regular emotions feels terrible for surviving victims and all associated and adjacent to this horrific crime. However, there are reasons that people are requested not to speak to the press and releasing press statements is unwise, most especially during the live case. I sincerely doubt any professional agency or expert has guided the family in this regard and the backlash is completely normal and to be expected - it's how life is these days, to expect differently is unrealistic.

JMO MOO

I agree it’s totally natural for the average person to have thoughts about how it maybe could’ve helped if emergency services were made aware sooner. In fact I made a post about it a few days ago when the delay in calling 911 was being discussed here while wondering about it myself as an average person, and opined that there could be many reasons why the roommates didn’t call 911 like maybe being in shock and froze, or maybe DM not wanting to believe what she saw quickly pass by her was real as she was drunk and fatigued, etc., etc, and said all we can really do is speculate about the why until the young ladies’ tell us why since obviously they’re the only ones that were there and only they know why they did what they did, or did not do. And I said that we’ll hopefully get more clarity on it from DM & BF’s testimony at trial.

As for the rest of your post about the family’s statement, I wasn’t addressing the family’s statement or any backlash their statement received in my post you quoted.
I personally haven’t read any backlash about the family statement itself but I’m sure it’s out there on the interwebs. Don’t plan on going looking for it though after what I’ve seen/read about the poor surviving roommates on other SM platforms which is what my post you quoted was about.

Allow me to explain/clarify as perhaps my post wasn’t clear- I quoted another poster that mentioned the unhinged SM posts re-traumatizing the victims DM & BF which I agreed with and posted my own thoughts on same, and elaborated on how some of the SM cranks on other platforms of the interwebs (not here) and their followers think they know more than and are smarter than all the LE investigating the case, and vilifying the surviving victims DM & BF, accusing them of awful things like being involved in the crime, unfairly judging and bashing them for not calling 911 sooner etc., and said that I thought it was vile which imo it absolutely is vile to accuse, bash and judge the surviving roommates/victims DM & BF re-traumatizing them after all the horror and trauma they’ve already been through and very likely still dealing with. That’s what my post was addressing and the far reaching collateral damage caused to so many innocent people by the selfish evil actions of the killer.

IMHOO

 

[rleigh123]

We are only aware of DM’s outreach that morning, not BF’s (aside from the 911 call), but we do know DM called EA (woman on call who described herself and HJ as living next to them) at 11:50:58 and the 911 call is placed 5 minutes later. I would guess EA and HJ responded to DM’s call together, though that is not a verified fact.

Source of call to EA: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01...tion-inLimine-RE-Text-Messages-Testimiony.pdf

MOO IMO

Seems there is a significant error near the end of page 5. After the text messages stop around 4:30am, the texts that start again around 10:20am are referred to as happening the "next morning." Then a few sentences later, the texts that happened earlier that same morning (at the 4am hour) are referred to as "the night before."

(Unless my brain is missing something obvious that I can't see.)

ETA: Thanks very much for the links.

MOO IMO

 

[Zinn]

MOO IMO

Seems there is a significant error near the end of page 5. After the text messages stop around 4:30am, the texts that start again around 10:20am are referred to as happening the "next morning." Then a few sentences later, the texts that happened earlier that same morning (at the 4am hour) are referred to as "the night before."

(Unless my brain is missing something obvious that I can't see.)

ETA: Thanks very much for the links.

MOO IMO

I think the exact time when night transitions to morning is contextual. One could argue it’s at 12:00am, 5:00am, sunrise, but context often plays a role. It’s like how someone might describe 3:00am as “the middle of the night” or they might say “it’s three o’clock in the morning” and the reasoning is usually based on context.

In this case, I think “last night” refers to the time up to DM and BF falling asleep while it was still dark whereas “the next morning” indicates the time when they’re awake again and it’s past 5:00am or sunrise. JMO.

 

[Sachi]

I think it is totally natural for the average person to have thoughts about how it maybe could have helped if emergency services knew about the incident sooner. The statement was not released by professionals giving expert opinions, it was from victim's family and is therefore heavily biased.

Of course anyone with a heart and regular emotions feels terrible for surviving victims and all associated and adjacent to this horrific crime. However, there are reasons that people are requested not to speak to the press and releasing press statements is unwise, most especially during the live case. I sincerely doubt any professional agency or expert has guided the family in this regard and the backlash is completely normal and to be expected - it's how life is these days, to expect differently is unrealistic.

JMO MOO

For sure. We can't control what people think nor are we responsible for what they think.

Coaching is a good idea for SG team as it's a great way to "sway" public opinion and to further the families message and causes.
His reaction is visceral and backed by his expanded understanding of his daughter and roommate's 'slaughter" and he is addressing the bee in his bonnet ..

He states the truth "this is not a script". IE.. you speculations on WHAT should have happened on that call are insignificant to reality that is now in the past, real people in a state of panic/ fear, it's raw, it's terrible and it gutted him and surely all victim's people who listened to it , that 911 call as SG said "it felt like we were drowning". Perspective is everything.

We can be mindful of ourselves and think a bit before we hit the keys or off handedly form uneducated opinions and share them with conviction as if truths!
As for SG, he doesn't care what anyone" thinks" ,his heart has been ripped out- he will continue to speak his truth of which very few understand.

May he walk in the light and may we as a decent people hold space for all victims and loved ones involved . We can put this down, close the computer and take a walk with empathetic thoughts but loved ones can't .. it's part of them now.
moo

 

[Arkay]

Is it at all possible that the 2 young lady housemates (and HJ) will not have to set eyes on BK at the trial? Can't there be a partition placed between them? Has that ever been done at a trial before?

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt6-5-3-4/ALDE_00013459/

It is the constitutional right of the accused to face his or her accuser. This link actually mentions, specifically, that no physical shield is allowed as it prevents the face-to-face right.

It’s called the “Confrontation Clause,” according to this link.

I have seen, as we all have, that in the case of victims or witnesses who are minor children, some adjustment is made. This is referenced here as well.

I don’t love it, but it is the law.

 

[Arkay]

As to the “behavior” of the 911 operator—-

IMO, the vast majority of calls received by 911 are from people in a state of crisis and panic. The 911 operators are trained to send help immediately, and sometimes they have to be abrupt if the caller is unable to provide the necessary information that could save lives.

No one yet knew that there were no lives to save. At 911, they need to know the location and what is needed—-police, fire, ambulance?

When phones were all landlines the address at least would pop up on the screen, but with cell phones the operator might have to ask, though the girls did provide the address right away.

IMO the operator was slightly brusque and a bit frustrated, but was attempting to discern what was the immediate emergency so she could send appropriate help. They do have to cut through the hysteria, even if it seems cold-hearted, in order to save whom they can.

The presence of a man in the house many hours earlier is of vital, critical importance, of course. But not at that moment of attempting a rescue.

While it’s of extreme consequence that a strange man was in the house at 4 AM, that is for the police investigation and for the trial.

Just my opinion that she had to winnow down the amount of people trying to talk to her so she could send the necessary help, immediately.

 

[rleigh123]

I think the exact time when night transitions to morning is contextual. One could argue it’s at 12:00am, 5:00am, sunrise, but context often plays a role. It’s like how someone might describe 3:00am as “the middle of the night” or they might say “it’s three o’clock in the morning” and the reasoning is usually based on context.

In this case, I think “last night” refers to the time up to DM and BF falling asleep while it was still dark whereas “the next morning” indicates the time when they’re awake again and it’s past 5:00am or sunrise. JMO.

IMO



Thanks answering, now I know it wasn't something going completely over my head!

I understand how the mistakes were made, but they seem like such amateur and significant mistakes for something so crucial. Especially when the times were right there in surrounding sentences. And they were talking about what took place during the hour of 4am, not something close to midnight.

(All of that is why I thought perhaps I wasn't perceiving something correctly.)

I could see a traumatized 911 caller who fell asleep at 4:30 and woke up at 10 saying something like that. But I wouldn't think "well it feels like it was, sorta," would apply here on legal documents --- especially with murder investigations and timelines that are so critical, and confusing enough when laid out accurately.





IMO

 

[NCWatcher]

IMO



Thanks answering, now I know it wasn't something going completely over my head!

I understand how the mistakes were made, but they seem like such amateur and significant mistakes for something so crucial. Especially when the times were right there in surrounding sentences. And they were talking about what took place during the hour of 4am, not something close to midnight.

(All of that is why I thought perhaps I wasn't perceiving something correctly.)

I could see a traumatized 911 caller who fell asleep at 4:30 and woke up at 10 saying something like that. But I wouldn't think "well it feels like it was, sorta," would apply here on legal documents --- especially with murder investigations and timelines that are so critical, and confusing enough when laid out accurately.





IMO

I agree. It would seem a 911 branch would have a standard policy. I can't see allowing each dispatcher to decide for him/herself based on their personal/habitual language usage.
MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I totally agree that DM had a story to tell, and a huge one, but the operator was focused on getting help to who she thought was passed out. That's who needed the most urgent help with the limited info she had. And even now that she knows all the details, I'm guessing she wouldn't do things differently. I'm thinking they train them to focus on what appears to be the most urgent. First things first and all that.

JMO

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. There is a way to redirect the conversation without scolding someone who is obviously traumatized.

I'll say that even though they were traumatized and being scolded by the person who was trying to help them, I'm impressed how polite all the kids were during that call.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Is it at all possible that the 2 young lady housemates (and HJ) will not have to set eyes on BK at the trial? Can't there be a partition placed between them? Has that ever been done at a trial before?

No. Defendants have a right to face their accusers. There's next to zero percent chance of this happening, IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It's not relevant information though. Finding out about the current situation with why they're calling 911 is the relevant information for the dispatcher. She was told there was an unconscious person which means a potential breathing person. Her job is to get EMS there as quickly as possible with as much information about what's happening right now, not what happened at 4am.

I get what you're saying, but what happened at 4 am very easily could have been relevant to what's happening now. The dispatcher already knew the person was unconscious. It was said and EMS was on the way. The next question is WHY was she unconscious. Most of the time, in a college town, the story would be "at 4 am, she took..." whatever drug or alcohol. Or "at 4 am, she fell down and hit her head" or "at 4 am, she had a seizure."

All of those things would be 100% relevant to the call. But regardless, even if the dispatcher only wanted the bare minimum, she could have handled the call much better than she did.

Dispatchers have an amazing job. They are absolute angels in what they do. They not only summon help for people, but sometimes, they spend a person's final moments on Earth with them. They are trained to handle stress, handle non-sensical people who don't have their wits about them in the midst of a life-and-death emergency or having experienced severe trauma. We've all heard the dispatchers from the 911 calls on 9/11 or in various emergencies in posts here on WS. Part of the job is being able to get the information you need without unnecessarily causing more stress and upset for the caller. Training in trauma-informed care should be required, if it isn't already.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

As to the “behavior” of the 911 operator—-

IMO, the vast majority of calls received by 911 are from people in a state of crisis and panic. The 911 operators are trained to send help immediately, and sometimes they have to be abrupt if the caller is unable to provide the necessary information that could save lives.

No one yet knew that there were no lives to save. At 911, they need to know the location and what is needed—-police, fire, ambulance?

When phones were all landlines the address at least would pop up on the screen, but with cell phones the operator might have to ask, though the girls did provide the address right away.

IMO the operator was slightly brusque and a bit frustrated, but was attempting to discern what was the immediate emergency so she could send appropriate help. They do have to cut through the hysteria, even if it seems cold-hearted, in order to save whom they can.

The presence of a man in the house many hours earlier is of vital, critical importance, of course. But not at that moment of attempting a rescue.

While it’s of extreme consequence that a strange man was in the house at 4 AM, that is for the police investigation and for the trial.

Just my opinion that she had to winnow down the amount of people trying to talk to her so she could send the necessary help, immediately.

But that's hindsight, right? The dispatcher had no idea she was about to hear about a man being in the house at 4 am. For all she knew, DM was going to tell her exactly why Xana was unconscious, like a mechanism of injury or a drug reaction. For all she knew, Xana passed out at 4 am from a severe headache or from a head injury, then woke up and insisted she was fine and is now passed out again. The dispatcher had no way of knowing and had no patience to find out, despite the fact that EMS was already on the way.

MOO.

 

[Boxer]

Also possibly the address came for the dispatcher up as a party house on the 911 screen.

 

[Ghostwheel]

But that's hindsight, right? The dispatcher had no idea she was about to hear about a man being in the house at 4 am. For all she knew, DM was going to tell her exactly why Xana was unconscious, like a mechanism of injury or a drug reaction. For all she knew, Xana passed out at 4 am from a severe headache or from a head injury, then woke up and insisted she was fine and is now passed out again. The dispatcher had no way of knowing and had no patience to find out, despite the fact that EMS was already on the way.

MOO.

This, however, is why there is an order to the questions. If the person is not breathing and is cold to the touch. It doesn't matter what happened at 4 am right then. If they are breathing, then asked if any visible wounds present, deal with that If possible,, then they might ask if it was known what they might have ingested and THAT would be the time to say what they know. In this case, it was determined she wasn't breathing and the emergency vehicles arrived shortly thereafter so the dispatcher left the conversation.

Not that what happened might not be important, just that other things are considered more important. Is there something the person on the phone can do to keep the victim alive, and what emergency vehicles to send are priority. It's an order of operations thing.

Based on my experiences.

 

[MassGuy]

Good read about cell phone expert Sy Ray here. I think he'll be important for the defense during trial.

Colorado judge finds "sea of unreliability" in company's cellphone mapping data police and prosecutors use to convict criminal defendants

 

[Megnut]

.

Good read about cell phone expert Sy Ray here. I think he'll be important for the defense during trial.

Colorado judge finds "sea of unreliability" in company's cellphone mapping data police and prosecutors use to convict criminal defendants

I suspect his greatest value was supposed to be at the hearings level.

If she calls him at all, the State will eat him for dinner.

She needed him to mouth to the juriverse how cell tower data was good for the Defense, exculpatory, to cover for her generic alibi in the hopes of burying the judge in motions while praying to the gods of evidence suppression.

Secretly I hope he does testify. I want to hear about all the magic places devoid of cell coverage where BK's Elantra could have been (if it weren't already in Moscow, looping around the neighborhood of 1122 King Road).

I can't wait to learn if the State has prior CCTV, synced with BK's phone, of the same Elantra doing the same loop de loop he employed the morning four college students were slaughtered.

The CAST report is going to be every bit as damning as his DNA.

Sy might want to flip over to the Prosecution's side, now while he still can.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

Good read about cell phone expert Sy Ray here. I think he'll be important for the defense during trial.

Colorado judge finds "sea of unreliability" in company's cellphone mapping data police and prosecutors use to convict criminal defendants

Oh dear!