4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #108

[PunishThenForgive]

<snipped for focus>

Do mitigating factors in the sentencing phase apply only to disorders that are part of a protected class, or could a member of a jury decide during the sentencing phase that they don't want to vote for the death penalty and have a firing squad shoot someoene who might have ASDL1 or other similar developmental disorder. I think that is a very real possibility, although a vote for life without parole would be very likely for the jury if BK is found guilty at trial.

Also, I don't remember if the jury has to be unanimous in its vote for the death penalty during the sentencing phase. I assume so, but don't remember the discussions we had on this early on in this forum.

If a defendant has a diagnosis that precludes the death penalty, the DP will be off the table (regardless of what the jury feels).

Otherwise, the jury gets to decide what it feels is mitigating. Example: the Parkland shooter

IMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

Right. She's laying the foundation for ineffective counsel during the appeals process. This defense team is stellar (and I honestly agree with a lot of points AT makes about the state's obligations to the defendant if you're going to pursue the death penalty). There's no way the case can be made that he received ineffective counsel based on the attorneys themselves. This is another way to do that--the attorneys were competent and effective, but unable to follow all of the ABA guidelines for defense counsel in a death penalty case due to the reasons laid out in the motion.
JMO

Question, though. Some of what she lays out in the motion are things that should have been done long ago. That she cannot seem to be organized enough to have done so, maybe even because she took on another DP case, is not the fault of anyone except herself. Would this not mean any defense attorney can neglect what needs to be done then claim they need extra time?

 

[Boxer]

If she had time for another case, then a continuance is ridiculous.

 

[wendy44]

Question, though. Some of what she lays out in the motion are things that should have been done long ago. That she cannot seem to be organized enough to have done so, maybe even because she took on another DP case, is not the fault of anyone except herself. Would this not mean any defense attorney can neglect what needs to be done then claim they need extra time?

They could, but it wouldn't mean they would automatically get it--it's ultimately up to the court. And that sounds like a defense strategy that would warrant a look in the appeals process for ineffective counsel anyway.

The thing with this, I don't think it's so much that she didn't do a lot of this work already. She found a small loophole to jump through, which she's very good at. The guidelines say the social history should be done before identifying expert witnesses for mitigation. There are deadlines for expert witness disclosures and I think they've all come and gone at this point (though I could be wrong about the penalty phase deadlines). So they can't now go do all this extra deep diving and identify new expert witnesses without a continuation. And an appeals court could point to those guidelines and say his counsel was ineffective because they didn't do what the guidelines require. And she's saying they couldn't because of the enormous amount of guilt phase discovery. So let's avoid all that potential appeals problem and give us more time to follow these guidelines. Not to mention all the other stuff she threw in with Dateline and the book coming out.

I don't know how the judge is going to go on this. On the one hand, I think she's had the time and resources. There are four attorneys and an unknown number of investigators and experts on the team. On the other hand, it is a death penalty case, so between that and the prospect of an overturn on appeal--I think most judges would be very cautious in their decisions.
JMO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

They could, but it wouldn't mean they would automatically get it--it's ultimately up to the court. And that sounds like a defense strategy that would warrant a look in the appeals process for ineffective counsel anyway.

The thing with this, I don't think it's so much that she didn't do a lot of this work already. She found a small loophole to jump through, which she's very good at. The guidelines say the social history should be done before identifying expert witnesses for mitigation. There are deadlines for expert witness disclosures and I think they've all come and gone at this point (though I could be wrong about the penalty phase deadlines). So they can't now go do all this extra deep diving and identify new expert witnesses without a continuation. And an appeals court could point to those guidelines and say his counsel was ineffective because they didn't do what the guidelines require. And she's saying they couldn't because of the enormous amount of guilt phase discovery. So let's avoid all that potential appeals problem and give us more time to follow these guidelines. Not to mention all the other stuff she threw in with Dateline and the book coming out.

I don't know how the judge is going to go on this. On the one hand, I think she's had the time and resources. There are four attorneys and an unknown number of investigators and experts on the team. On the other hand, it is a death penalty case, so between that and the prospect of an overturn on appeal--I think most judges would be very cautious in their decisions.
JMO

Defense attorneys are not the only ones who have to follow professional guidelines—so do the prosecuting attorneys and judges. Guidelines are not laws, anyway, they are best practices, and a judge must weigh competing interests in the pursuit of justice.

IMO

 

[Odeto BJ]

(AT)....complaining that she doesn't have time isn't a good argument. Asking for more time because of media interest and Dateline-style programs is not realistic. The more time that passes, the more info that will be produced - case in point, the animation of the murders (Hughes) that has been linked here. It's currently incomplete, but it will be as damaging to the defence as the Dateline program.

Regarding the question of a leak, that is still unknown. It looks like digital device data was made available to Dateline. Whether that could alter a jury decision is questionable.

TBM
Well put. As addition: the digital data was always going to make it to trial, in spite of MIL's from the D. Where the media/author coverage becomes a real problem, happens should information be publicized that would NOT otherwise become trial evidence. Examples of such include the anecdotes describing his behavior toward the servers in a tavern or his gaslighting of friends to recruit them into helping him procure heroin. Dateline has added to that in the form of his behavior at a pool party as well as fleshing out the interplay between BK and his office partner. It would not be hard to anticipate that JH has already excluded from trial evidence select incidents which MSM will disclose in the near term. JMO
In fact there are simple reasons why this can only get worse: AT and staff, investigators and expert witnesses on the D side only add up to maybe 30 people total. Their focus needs to be on alternate suspects and the development of mitigating factors. There are at least hundreds of journalists, authors and content creators who are pursuing the inculpatory tidbits out there and are not concerned about admissibility in court. The simple odds make pursuing delays based on such revelations, a no-win game for AT & Co.
MOO throughout.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what he is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie just one month later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

 

[Sachi]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what he is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie just one month later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

I wish I could do more than" like" this , I need more reaction emoji's specific to Websleuths..

 

[otto]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what he is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie just one month later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

Bundy was treated special pre-trial and during trial. Then there was the verdict, 'special' ended, and the death penalty was carried out.

That's how it is until the benefit of the doubt is exhausted and truth is known. Kohberger has the same future as Bundy, although the death penalty may not be carried out.

 

[Ghostwheel]

RSBM--- The guidelines say the social history should be done before identifying expert witnesses for mitigation. There are deadlines for expert witness disclosures and I think they've all come and gone at this point (though I could be wrong about the penalty phase deadlines). So they can't now go do all this extra deep diving and identify new expert witnesses without a continuation. And an appeals court could point to those guidelines and say his counsel was ineffective because they didn't do what the guidelines require. And she's saying they couldn't because of the enormous amount of guilt phase discovery. So let's avoid all that potential appeals problem and give us more time to follow these guidelines. Not to mention all the other stuff she threw in with Dateline and the book coming out.
---RSBM

BBM. Work with me, I'm seriously trying to figure this out. She says there is an enormous amount of discovery, yet will only go through discovery herself. That already sounds like ineffective counsel. And needing to have the social history done before identifying expert witnesses for mitigation is something that there have been over 2 years to do. Once again looks like ineffective counsel. Even if a continuation is given, is the counsel now suddenly effective because they had extra time to do what they already should have done? I'm not seeing how they could not still appeal based on ineffective counsel due to it taking so long which falls below the standard of competence and diligence expected from attorneys. I mean, you expect your defense team to be able to get through the discovery asked for in a timely manner, and you expect that they know what needs to be done to identify witnesses for mitigation at the get go, not two years in.

I'm really trying to figure out what a continuance actually accomplishes. It doesn't negate what hasn't been done and should have been done ( Rather ineffective if you ask me), it just kicks that should-have-been-done can down the road to where it's finally done ( and no more effective because it should have already been done, also IMO). Getting things accomplished late can sometimes make the attorney look ineffective. Why would anyone try to appear that way?

 

[SteveP]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what this man is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie 29 days later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

Ahhh yes, the old "where I'm from, in Pennsylvania, we don't have, like, crosswalks..." lie.

Even after she told him she wasn't going to give him a ticket, after he was seen making two ticketable moving violations, he continued to try to justify his actions, repeating the lie again..

Would be interesting to see if he would have tried to BS his way out of a ticket if a male officer had stopped him.

 

[Vaderman]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what he is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie just one month later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

I believe he is guilty, but I also believe he is entitled to a rigorous defense. The onus is on the state to the deliver the good. Let the defense do what they can to ensure a fair trial. I would not want the system to work any other way. JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Ahhh yes, the old "where I'm from, in Pennsylvania, we don't have, like, crosswalks..." lie.

Even after she told him she wasn't going to give him a ticket, after he was seen making two ticketable moving violations, he continued to try to justify his actions, repeating the lie again..

Would be interesting to see if he would have tried to BS his way out of a ticket if a male officer had stopped him.

I got a monster ticket for scaring a pedestrian in an airport crosswalk. In Pittsburgh. Which is in Pennsylvania.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

One of the things that bothers me most about this case is how the defendant is treated as if he were so special. Look at what he is accused of doing! Look at the EVIDENCE against him! Special?

He was raised by all accounts by two loving parents, blessed with intelligence, repeatedly given second chances.

And when he commits the most heinous of crimes, only the very BEST public defender for him!

“Your honor, Bryan is innocent.”

Motion after motion after motion.

And such a devoted following on Reddit and Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok!

Because he’s so special.

No wonder he’s a narcissist.

Re-watch this footage, of the defendant lying his way out of a ticket, playing the rube—so polite and curious and soft-spoken as he manipulates the female officer:

And then think about what he did to Xana, Ethan, Kaylee and Maddie just one month later.

“It’s ok. I’m going to help you.”

This man is NOT special.

We all know exactly what he is.

This isn't being treated "special." This is what justice looks like. You're innocent until proven guilty. You're entitled to competent counsel, and if you have the funds to pay for it, then you get even better counsel. Many prisoners have "fans" even before social media. I don't see how he's being treated "special" or how that's the fault of anyone or anything. It's how our system is set up and I wouldn't really want it any other way.

JMO.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I believe he is guilty, but I also believe he is entitled to a rigorous defense. The onus is on the state to the deliver the good. Let the defense do what they can to ensure a fair trial. I would not want the system to work any other way. JMO

Yes! Defend your client, but don’t engage in underhanded tactics, doing whatever you can to get him off. How is that a code of professional conduct, of ethics? Lying and misleading are not ethical, IMO.

As far as presuming the innocence of BK, I am not a juror and can’t possibly be one since I don’t live in Ada County. I have seen the evidence, and it points directly at BK.

And as I’ve said before, I don’t believe in the death penalty—for many reasons, but most especially because it so utterly unfair. If you are poor, uneducated, unattractive—good luck getting away with anything.

 

[iamshadow21]

Bundy was treated special pre-trial and during trial. Then there was the verdict, 'special' ended, and the death penalty was carried out.

That's how it is until the benefit of the doubt is exhausted and truth is known. Kohberger has the same future as Bundy, although the death penalty may not be carried out.

You're missing the roughly ten years between verdict and death penalty when Bundy was courted by authors, psychologists and LE, all wanting something from him. I believe he was quite the prison lawyer, too, having actually studied law pre arrest.

I have no doubt BK has aspirations of being studied and courted by those interested in the workings of his mind, should he be convicted.

MOO

 

[wendy44]

BBM. Work with me, I'm seriously trying to figure this out. She says there is an enormous amount of discovery, yet will only go through discovery herself. That already sounds like ineffective counsel. And needing to have the social history done before identifying expert witnesses for mitigation is something that there have been over 2 years to do. Once again looks like ineffective counsel. Even if a continuation is given, is the counsel now suddenly effective because they had extra time to do what they already should have done? I'm not seeing how they could not still appeal based on ineffective counsel due to it taking so long which falls below the standard of competence and diligence expected from attorneys. I mean, you expect your defense team to be able to get through the discovery asked for in a timely manner, and you expect that they know what needs to be done to identify witnesses for mitigation at the get go, not two years in.

I'm really trying to figure out what a continuance actually accomplishes. It doesn't negate what hasn't been done and should have been done ( Rather ineffective if you ask me), it just kicks that should-have-been-done can down the road to where it's finally done ( and no more effective because it should have already been done, also IMO). Getting things accomplished late can sometimes make the attorney look ineffective. Why would anyone try to appear that way?

This motion is not really pointing towards a potential ineffective counsel as in the actual attorneys were ineffective or negligent or incompetent. More so that the tremendous amount of discovery in the guilt phase didn't allow them to follow the recommended guidelines for a death penalty case in the penalty phase. So he will have received ineffective counsel in defending against the death penalty if they get to that point--he won't have the right expert mitigation witnesses, etc.

What the motion could accomplish is taking the death penalty off the table as a remedy rather than continue, but it also lays foundation for the appeals process.
JMO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

This motion is not really pointing towards a potential ineffective counsel as in the actual attorneys were ineffective or negligent or incompetent. More so that the tremendous amount of discovery in the guilt phase didn't allow them to follow the recommended guidelines for a death penalty case in the penalty phase. So he will have received ineffective counsel in defending against the death penalty if they get to that point--he won't have the right expert mitigation witnesses, etc.

What the motion could accomplish is taking the death penalty off the table as a remedy rather than continue, but it also lays foundation for the appeals process.
JMO

BK and his attorneys are going to appeal anyway. It seems to me that AT's unwillingness to hire more staff will not make the "there was too much discovery" very successful.

 

[snooptroop88]

I find this ironic. I saw something that jumped out at me as I was researching this "three generations" thing. It was some random legal source. I'm paraphrasing, but the source noted that the idea behind mitigation is that it tells the client's life story so jurors get to know how that client wound up where he is.

Many of us can tell you right now without any continuance: He murdered college kids with a combat knife he ordered on Amazon and forgot the sheath at the CS. That's how he wound up where he is.

I don't care what the D drags up to try and mitigate for BK, that's jmo how the jury's going to see it, too. Totally agreed with others on here that there are parallels already to Bundy in this trial. It's something of a s---show already, complete with the very unique personality that is BK, and his-- groupies, seriously?? I don't know if anyone has said this already, but if they have, I agree: Bundy 2.0. None of the twisted (and in its own way very lethal) charm, but all the same sort of horror.

AT might get the continuance, but the "when" from Hippler is coming soon. Because jmo she'd continue it until everyone in the courtroom had died of natural causes. And with the evidence against him, I can see why.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You're missing the roughly ten years between verdict and death penalty when Bundy was courted by authors, psychologists and LE, all wanting something from him. I believe he was quite the prison lawyer, too, having actually studied law pre arrest.

I have no doubt BK has aspirations of being studied and courted by those interested in the workings of his mind, should he be convicted.

MOO

I agree and in this regard I suspect that either consciously or subconsciously, he was partly driven by knowing that people would be fascinated with him and his thoughts, including his fellow students, peers, tutors, lecturers, professors and all the people who he couldn't get along so easily with in real life. If he's a narcissistic PD then he bumped himself up the top of a hierarchy (in his mind) from down at the bottom student forced to bumble along with many peers and not making a dent in academia, to suddenly all the way up to being the subject matter itself. It's one way of making it to the top huh.

JMO MOO