4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #108

[jepop]

Anne Taylor submitted evidence for her offer of proof of alternate perpetrators on May 23, the same day that she submitted this motion to seal the Defendant’s Objection to Court’s Request for Defense to Submit Redacted Copy of Ex Parte Filing (to the State):

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/5232025_Motion_to_Seal_Defs_Obj_to_Courts_Request_for_Defense_to_Submit_Redacted_Copy_of_Ex_Parte_Filing.pdf

And here’s the Court’s ruling to seal AT’s objection:

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/5272025_Order_Sealing_Defs_Objection_to_Courts_Rqst_for_Defense_to_Submit_Redacted_Copy_of_Ex_Parte_Filing.pdf

According to Google AI:

I assume AT discussed the admissibility of her evidence for alternate perpetrators during an ex parte meeting with Judge Hippler on May 23, and that the State will have access to her evidence filing. So why doesn’t AT want to share a redacted copy of the ex parte filing, as well?

IANAL, so are my assumptions wrong? Surely the State has to prepare for the June 18 hearing, or are they not even allowed to attend that hearing either? Does the prosecution have no say in whether AT can introduce alternate perpetrators during the trial?

I think the exparte filing is associated with defense's motion for continuance, not the alt perp motion, proffer, filings and pre-set June 18th hearing. There is an exparte supplement referenced in the motion for continuance. The court asked that the defense deliver a redacted copy of the exparte filing to the prosecution and the defense objected. This may be why the prosecution hasn't yet filed an objection to motion for continuance, because Hippler needs to assess and rule on the defense's objection, before the state can fully formulate their response/objection to the continuance motion. Jmo

 

[Ghostwheel]

Didn't need to, (as a criminology student) should know not to, not what I'm suggesting is that AT didn't entirely invent cleaning up, that she she might be taking something real from the real evidence column, moving it over to her column to pretend it's something it's not. So I'm eager to see what truth comes out at trial that AT commandeered to support "cleaning up". Evidence he was in the bathroom, evidence of a towel or clothing missing, something.

I don't think for a second he did any actual cleaning, but he may have done something that AT is trying hard to re-frame.

JMO

I'm thinking that Gray Hughes didn't get the bathroom scene from thin air. I suspect there was some kind of blood evidence in there ( I always have but had nothing to back it up). And a missing towel would fit the "cleanup" re-frame and carrying something in his arms.

Just as a thought, if you (the generic you) feared someone might have called 911, would you be more concerned with them finding you in the house with bloody coveralls on, or finding you outside next to your car trying to get out of them? At what point during the whole debacle is it safer to leave a possible blood trail out the door, or to wrap up your blood trail into a towel, maybe, if you have another something under the kill suit to keep your DNA off everything? Leave the mask on, of course, because hair. I'm just really torn on the standing outside in full view of anyone driving by at 4-4:30 am trying to strip off a bloody kill suit while not getting any cast off on yourself, your car, the ground. If a person double suited to allow removal of the outside suit in preparation, removing it inside would be faster and less observable. But yes, maybe more prone to leaving evidence behind, unless they thought it was mitigated with second suit. I am going to be on the fence on this one. Happens to me a lot.

Edited to fix the fact that I can't get Hugh and Gray in the right order.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There's plenty of single and isolated people these days and loneliness is an epidemic in my city, linked to a high suicide rate. Lack of connection and maybe poor social skills.

The anguish that causes the lonely people doesn't generally turn youngsters into killers but it might be something to explain the 'incel' phenomena and the Elliot Rodger scenario?

I think BK, same as Elliot Rodger, had a lot going for him. So there must be something more - or something missing - to explain someone turning to criminal violent horror.

 

[seasideForest]

Wow, are we allowed to talk about Gray Hughes 3-D animation? Amazingly done and scared the daylights out of me.

Very creepy.
So creepy I don't want to watch it again, not even to make sure I get the scenario correct that I want to write here.

The thing that surprised me and I have a hard time agreeing with is the exact situation in which GH suggests BK said something like "I'm going to help you" to Xana. GH puts it when BK has already stabbed Xana and she is not in a position to defend herself or fight back. IOW I don't see a reason for BK to want to calm her in any way before he attacks again. He's got full power over her.

Otherwise watching the animation helped me understand how things might have gone down and it certainly gave me better understanding of the layout of rooms, stairs etc

JMO

 

[Ghostwheel]

There's plenty of single and isolated people these days and loneliness is an epidemic in my city, linked to a high suicide rate. Lack of connection and maybe poor social skills.

The anguish that causes the lonely people doesn't generally turn youngsters into killers but it might be something to explain the 'incel' phenomena and the Elliot Rodger scenario?

I think BK, same as Elliot Rodger, had a lot going for him. So there must be something more - or something missing - to explain someone turning to criminal violent horror.

I'm going out on a limb here and thinking compassion for other human beings might be missing. Instead of blaming everyone else for one's shortcomings, reframing it is that someone else does not have the ability to see what one has to offer. That person hates me and deserves my ire VS that person isn't capable of seeing what I have to offer, poor them. JMO.

 

[seasideForest]

Someone who sat on the chair left a blood print. Do we know if it was BK? Could it have been Xana?

Do we know that someone definitely sat on the chair? Could the blood print have been from somebody's hand or arm instead?

 

[PunishThenForgive]

That depends on if she COULD have played dead. If she was attacked before the hallway and got away to run to the bedroom to close the door (but didn't get it closed or didn't make it), that would be instinctual. Get away. Or maybe even protect Ethan. I don't think a mind would be thinking of much else at that point. If she were lying on the floor moaning because she was mortally wounded, can one NOT moan if you are all but deceased already? (I don't know the answer to that). But even besides that, if she were badly wounded enough playing dead may still have resulted in being dead.

So imo, probably would not have helped in this particular situation, but since I don't know all the facts I can not say.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how Xana could have fought so hard for her life (as claimed by her father) against an opponent armed with a Ka-bar.

Also, if BK had attacked Xana with the knife before she made it to her room, wouldn’t it be difficult for her to make it all the way there, and wouldn’t Dylan have seen a lot of blood on her flight to Bethany’s room?

IMOO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

The following is SPECULATION.

According to the PCA:

D.M. stated she opened her door a second time “when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kernodle’s room.”

The PCA next states:

D.M. then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of “it’s OK, I’m going to help you.”

And then the PCA states:

At approximately 4:17 AM, security camera located at 1112 King Rd…picked up distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. A dog can also be heard barking numerous times starting at 4:17 am.

Finally, the PCA states:

D.M. stated she opened her door the third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person’s mouth and nose walking towards her….The male walked past D.M. as she stood in a “frozen shocked phase.”

It’s natural to assume that the order of these sentences in the PCA match the order of events, but this isn’t necessarily true. Here’s an order of events that is not contradicted by the PCA, in which the second and third quotes are switched:

1:

D.M. stated she opened her door a second time “when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Kernodle’s room.”

2:

At approximately 4:17 AM, security camera located at 1112 King Rd…picked up distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. A dog can also be heard barking numerous times starting at 4:17 am.

3:

D.M. then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of “It’s OK, I’m going to help you.”

4:

D.M. stated she opened her door the third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person’s mouth and nose walking towards her….The male walked past D.M. as she stood in a “frozen shocked phase.” The male walked towards the back sliding glass door.

That is, the sequence of events after the murders of Maddie and Kaylee could have been:

1: BK follows or chases Xana to her room.

2: Xana cries or whimpers when cornered in her room by BK.

3: BK attacks Xana, who puts up a fight ending in a loud thud. He then notices a passed out Ethan and kills him anyway, carving his lower legs to add insult to (mortal) injury.

4: BK says “It’s OK, I’m going to help you.”

5: BK walks past D.M. and out the kitchen slider.

My point is that BK could have directed his statement, “It’s OK, I’m going to help you” not to Xana or Ethan (who were already dead), but to anyone left alive in the house.

He could have stood outside Xana’s room, faced the living room, and made the statement loud enough for any surviving roommates on the second (and first floor) to hear so they would think he was going to help Xana.

This would explain BK’s presence in the house to Dylan, making her think he was possibly a first responder or a friend who was going to get help or equipment after he left the house. This would also explain why Dylan didn’t call 911 or check on Xana on her way down to Bethany’s room.

IMOO

 

[Megnut]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how Xana could have fought so hard for her life (as claimed by her father) against an opponent armed with a Ka-bar.

Also, if BK had attacked Xana with the knife before she made it to her room, wouldn’t it be difficult for her to make it all the way there, and wouldn’t Dylan have seen a lot of blood on her flight to Bethany’s room?

IMOO

I wonder if 'defensive wounds' hasn't been mistranslated it into 'self-defense'. The latter gives an impression of attacking, maybe gaining a weapon, when IMO it's much more likely that, being fully awake, she tried to deflect his weapon, resulting in serious injury to her hands. Curling into a ball, for example, is a protective position, instinctive, to guard the head and heart. His attack of her may have been more imprecise than his atrack on an unmoving victim, like upstairs. More stabs, poor contact, more blood. She may have been able to defend herself against attack briefly and during that short span of time, whimpering and crying, she prevented BK from landing a fatal blow. Until he did.

Much as I like to imagine her gouging out his eyes or a differentnpair, he had the advantages with that knife. Her injuries IMO will show she tried to ward off his blows; I doubt she levied any.

He was ruthless, and with a second threat in the room (EC), I think his initial attack was brutal and haphazard, by virtue of her attempts to protect herself, interrupted only to attack EC.

For all we knew, she did play dead at that point. DM may have opened her door whole XK was playing dead, while BK sat in the chair watching to make sure. Don't worry, I'm here to help you. And he stabbed her again, for sick measure.

JMO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I imagine it's fortunate for his office mate that he did not respond. Otherwise she might not be alive anymore. I don't think developing a healthy relationship with her (or in fact with anybody) would have been possible for BK.
All JMO

I agree. According to Dateline, she was also an outsider, and (according to Howard Blum) apparently had a strong accent, having just come from Korea. So BK may have thought she wasn’t good enough for him, which is laughable. At least he didn’t kill her.

IMO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I think the exparte filing is associated with defense's motion for continuance, not the alt perp motion, proffer, filings and pre-set June 18th hearing. There is an exparte supplement referenced in the motion for continuance. The court asked that the defense deliver a redacted copy of the exparte filing to the prosecution and the defense objected. This may be why the prosecution hasn't yet filed an objection to motion for continuance, because Hippler needs to assess and rule on the defense's objection, before the state can fully formulate their response/objection to the continuance motion. Jmo

Thank you so much! That makes sense—the dates were just coincidental. I’ll check out the motion to continue so I know where to look for a reference to an ex parte filing in any future motions.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

She is managing the time clock.

No one else did this. If AT had actual evidence that BK didn't do it, she would have led with that, not buried it under time, motions, Sy Ray. And LE should be all over it because convicting the wrong man leaves the right man out there, able to strike again.

AT is going to name someone who maybe woulda coulda or even doubt they woulda, and IMO is hoping to hurdle over the judge's objections, with words not legs, speed not advising accuracy, in the hopes of gaining latitude to question LE on the stand and make them look bad, like there was this legitimate other person LE never considered, who could have. She doesn't want to give them time to close any gaps.

AT to LE on the stand: are you aware of [individual]? Are you aware of [incident]? Did you test his/her DNA? Why not? Are you aware that he/she lives close to [a location]? Drives a car? Has a history?

In order to make LE look like they rushed to judgment, ignoring viable leads and other suspects.

IMO it won't work but it won't stop her from trying.

JMO

Yes! And by introducing these alternate perpetrators at the very last minute, the only way for LE to investigate further would be for Hippler to delay the trial.

If he were to do this, after each LE investigation cleared an alternate perpetrator, AT could come up with yet another one. The cycle could continue until eventually, the trial would have to take place without a thorough investigation of the latest alternate perpetrator, and AT could eviscerate LE on the stand anyway.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around how Xana could have fought so hard for her life (as claimed by her father) against an opponent armed with a Ka-bar.

Also, if BK had attacked Xana with the knife before she made it to her room, wouldn’t it be difficult for her to make it all the way there, and wouldn’t Dylan have seen a lot of blood on her flight to Bethany’s room?

IMOO

IMOO, If you put your hands up to defend yourself, you can deflect a knife. It will also slice anything it touches. Most people really have no concept of what a knife can really do, and if defending yourself I must assume you don't really care about anything except defending yourself.

Spoiler: Hidden For the squeamish

A knife will slice, stab, carve, rip skin. It can bring your insides outside. It can destroy your insides. It can dismember parts of your body. But a slice or stab to the arm will not kill you or keep you from running. Same with a shoulder, parts of the back, parts of the leg. So if in trying to protect herself Xana put her hands up, got her fingers and arms slashed with slices in the HALLWAY where it is darker, maybe even kicked her assailant (possibly more slices/stabs), turned and got stabbed or sliced in the back as she was running, she could still be quite mobile, even if terribly (even mortally) wounded and bleeding. It depends on where the blood is located, how the shadows are, and if DM may have actually seen the blood, but PTSD made her believe she didn't. Your mind will do a lot to protect you.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

He'd have to be an absolute moron to strip off his coveralls inside the house, let alone inside a the crime scene, and a body one at that. It defies the very countermeasure he took. It asks Locard on a date and marries him.

But... if BK got bloodier than he ever intended, maybe something overrode his book learnin'. Akin to a panic attack. Get it off me, get it off me. Spot, spot, be gone. Why he wouldn't fear more witnesses, maybe it's just that whatever he was experiencing completely overcame him. He knew the door was open (unless XK closed it) so, if he was capable of calculation, maybe his calculus convinced him he was home free, no surfaces to touch, no blood to step in.

Maybe.... maybe he layered up, and peeling off the outermost layer left him with another layer he had been careful to protect. Lycra running suit. House was quiet, for the second, maybe he thought he'd killed everyone, undresses while rolling that layer around his knife, stripping again by his car and donning a fresh outfit before being into his car. Triple sterile protocol...

This is someone who brought his phone part way, turned it off, drove his own car to the crime scene, brought an apparently loose sheath which he left behind along with his own DNA, left a search history, bought a knife on Amazon with his own account and own gift card, left a worn trail between his house and 1122, searched for a replacement knife and sheath even before such a topic his MSM, and turned his phone back on, memorializing the exact time bracket during which the crimes occurred.

So I can't say he wouldn't be dumb enough to step out of his coveralls in the house.

He might be that dumb.

JMO

I don't know when BK shed his coveralls but he had to be covered in blood. But think this through--how do you get blood-covered clothes off without touching them? Maybe you're wearing gloves, but the gloves are even bloodier, slippery, wet. Taking off a coverall quickly when you're wearing shoes or boots and your hands are covered with bloody gloves--not that easy. And he has to do that outside in the dark and the cold, where someone can see him. Or inside, where he can get caught and bloody AFTER disrobing. It probably all seemed easier when it was a plan.

 

[INfisherman]

She is managing the time clock.

No one else did this. If AT had actual evidence that BK didn't do it, she would have led with that, not buried it under time, motions, Sy Ray. And LE should be all over it because convicting the wrong man leaves the right man out there, able to strike again.

AT is going to name someone who maybe woulda coulda or even doubt they woulda, and IMO is hoping to hurdle over the judge's objections, with words not legs, speed not advising accuracy, in the hopes of gaining latitude to question LE on the stand and make them look bad, like there was this legitimate other person LE never considered, who could have. She doesn't want to give them time to close any gaps.

AT to LE on the stand: are you aware of [individual]? Are you aware of [incident]? Did you test his/her DNA? Why not? Are you aware that he/she lives close to [a location]? Drives a car? Has a history?

In order to make LE look like they rushed to judgment, ignoring viable leads and other suspects.

IMO it won't work but it won't stop her from trying.

JMO

Unless JH tells her not to do so after seeing her "evidence" pre trial in the hearing. He may already smell into what she’s stepping & prepping for another Hipcheck.

MOO

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I agree with this. BK may have made errors in other ways, probably as he assume he'd never be scrutinised but surely his 'genius' plan was to ensure no contamination either way - he didn't want to bring any evidence of himself into the crime scene and he surely didn't want to track any of the crime scene into his car or home.

My suspicion is he intended to peel off his outside layer outside the house, maybe as closely to the manner that surgeons use to disrobe themselves. As someone studying criminology he would be aware of contamination / cross contamination and probably how medical surgeons dress and undress in order to minimise bacteria.

The clue to this is that there is no evidence in his car or home and barely any in the house, had he not left the sheath it would be one footprint and some captures of a speeding white Elantra. I appreciate that time went by and he had done a lot of cleaning.

JMO MOO

Do we know, for sure, that there is "no evidence in his car or home and barely any in the house"? There could very well be evidence that we don't know about.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I'm thinking that Gray Hughes didn't get the bathroom scene from thin air. I suspect there was some kind of blood evidence in there ( I always have but had nothing to back it up). And a missing towel would fit the "cleanup" re-frame and carrying something in his arms.

Just as a thought, if you (the generic you) feared someone might have called 911, would you be more concerned with them finding you in the house with bloody coveralls on, or finding you outside next to your car trying to get out of them? At what point during the whole debacle is it safer to leave a possible blood trail out the door, or to wrap up your blood trail into a towel, maybe, if you have another something under the kill suit to keep your DNA off everything? Leave the mask on, of course, because hair. I'm just really torn on the standing outside in full view of anyone driving by at 4-4:30 am trying to strip off a bloody kill suit while not getting any cast off on yourself, your car, the ground. If a person double suited to allow removal of the outside suit in preparation, removing it inside would be faster and less observable. But yes, maybe more prone to leaving evidence behind, unless they thought it was mitigated with second suit. I am going to be on the fence on this one. Happens to me a lot.

Edited to fix the fact that I can't get Hugh and Gray in the right order.

BK could have worn a full kill suit underneath the first, and doubled (or more) the gloves and balaclava.

It seems plausible to me that he would clean up a bit, at least, before leaving Xana’s room since Dylan would have seen blood all over his face.

And I still like the idea floated a while back and again recently that BK wrapped his knife in a towel since he didn’t have the sheath, making Dylan think he was holding a small vacuum cleaner.

Anyway, a missing towel in the bathroom and blood around the sink at least would explain the defense statement that the perpetrators tried to clean up the scene.

If BK indeed removed an outer kill suit inside the house, he could have stuffed it into a waterproof rucksack on his back so he couldn’t drip blood everywhere. He wouldn’t have wrapped up the knife in the kill suit before stuffing it since he might have cut himself while doing so, plus he would have no way to defend himself.

And for anyone who thinks BK wouldn’t have time to do all this, simulate the scene yourself.

When the PCA first came out, I remember thinking (along with many people, I’m sure) that it would be impossible for one person to kill four people in 20 minutes, let alone less than 10.

I had the house layout memorized, so I walked around my house like an idiot, pretending to exit my car, walk down an incline, enter the house, creep upstairs, stab two beautiful humans, walk back down the stairs and across the living room, stab two more beautiful humans, walk across the living room again with a light source blinding me to Dylan’s presence, walk out the door, run up the incline, get out of my kill suit as if I were exiting the isolation room of a person infected with a deadly, contagious disease, close up the garbage bag and put into the trunk of my car, then enter my car. I was stunned how little time it took. My time inside the imagined murder house never exceeded three minutes.

IMOO

 

[PunishThenForgive]

I don't know when BK shed his coveralls but he had to be covered in blood. But think this through--how do you get blood-covered clothes off without touching them? Maybe you're wearing gloves, but the gloves are even bloodier, slippery, wet. Taking off a coverall quickly when you're wearing shoes or boots and your hands are covered with bloody gloves--not that easy. And he has to do that outside in the dark and the cold, where someone can see him. Or inside, where he can get caught and bloody AFTER disrobing. It probably all seemed easier when it was a plan.

He had to wear multiple layers of gloves and remove items (including gloves) inside out. I believe @10ofRods explained the exact process of removing a barrier layer in an early thread.

Also he could have parked up the incline and behind the house, where he wouldn’t be seen from Queen Road. This is what I think he did, and the possible re-enactment photo that I shared in an earlier post supports that LE thinks BK didn’t park right next to the house. Here’s the photo again, with the photographer’s own caption:

An Investigator races up a hill to possibly reenact the suspects movements in the backyard an off-campus home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death on Monday, November 21, 2022 in Moscow, Idaho. Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, and Kaylee Goncalves were named as the victims. (James Keivom for New York Post)

Source: https://jameskeivom.com/

ETA:

It is possible that LE had no idea where BK parked and were just being conservative since they were doing time trials. Note that BK could have very well left evidence of precisely where he exited from his kill suit. Tire tracks might also be indicative, given how fast he exited the scene.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Unless JH tells her not to do so after seeing her "evidence" pre trial in the hearing. He may already smell into what she’s stepping & prepping for another Hipcheck.

MOO

Gosh, I hope so.

Go Hippler! We are really counting on you.

 

[PunishThenForgive]

Do we know, for sure, that there is "no evidence in his car or home and barely any in the house"? There could very well be evidence that we don't know about.

Didn’t Anne Taylor state passionately in court that no victim DNA was found in his car or apartment, that BK had no prior relationship with any of the victims, and that he stalked no one?

I would dissect her sentences carefully, and examine the precise legal definitions of each word she utters in hearings or writes in court documents.

IMO