4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

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  • #821
I think the Judges shot clock is running out on a potential Franks??

Didn’t he indicate a three week window for the hearing?

IMO
IMO, which is worth diddly squat, it takes time to eloquently state a judicial opinion (ruling). His body language spoke volumes & it’s obvious to at least this moron that he will be giving this his utmost consideration. On the surface, he seems to be a level headed & fair judge.

He is obviously in no rush & if I am being honest, putting my personal opinions aside, I believe his decision will be fair & just whether it aligns with my &/or popular opinion.

MOO

ETA Super Bowl beers have me on repeat. Sorry.
 
  • #822
People might expect not only high standards for the burden of proof.

People sometimes doubt that the alibis were as well-checked, and some recent cases give them ample reason to doubt.

Personally, I do feel upset about some cases, too, like Suzanne Morphew’s one. When will justice be done there?

Looking at it from the opposite side, though, one badly patched up case in a different state automatically increases requirements to all subsequent ones.

About BK. What gives me uneasy feeling about him is the reaction of these women in a restaurant in PA. Remember, when he was asked to leave because he gave them creeps? Such nonverbal signals I tend to trust.

Yet the problem with the murders in Idaho lies, it seems, in the house that has been known as a “party” one long before the victims moved in there. It also seems that the house had a very poor protection. Add to it no firm evidence of stalking or obsession by BK who is a total outsider plus the fact that the four victims were vibrant, social, active and well-known in town, and the dire need to prove that it was him becomes obvious. JMO.
We know what they did here from details shared at these hearings, and from court filings. They started in, and then they worked out. They looked at people the victims knew, people they interacted with, and even people in other states. They had that sheath DNA, but at the time, had no idea who it belonged to. We even heard that they collected a discarded cigarette to compare to the sample they had.

They seem to have done what they should have done with the other DNA that they found, but it was apparently not of the quality that would allow for a CODIS upload.

They also communicated with nearby law enforcement agencies that they were looking for a white Hyundai, and scoured surveillance footage in an effort to trace its movements. They obtained geofence data to locate any cellphones in the vicinity of the crime scene around the time of the murders.

That's exactly what they should have done.

Simultaneously, they sent a DNA sample to Othram, in an effort to perform genetic genealogy, a step we rarely see at that stage of an investigation. This was no ordinary case though, as they were dealing with an almost unprecedented crime, and a very dangerous quadruple murderer who was on the loose.

Finally, they got a tip from the FBI based on their genetic research, and had a name to work with. I've said this before, but there's never been an easier time in history to prove or disprove an alibi. Once they obtained phone records, and surveillance footage, they were more confident than ever that Kohberger's DNA would match what was on the knife sheath.

It did, and the rest is history.

No investigation is perfect, but all indications to me are that this was off the charts solid.

Every case is different, and you've got people looking at other high profile investigations where mistakes were made, and now view every single one through the same lens.

That's not how it works.
 
  • #823
@mrjitty @Balthazar @jepop @NCWatcher @Megnut @Arkay

Sitting back, considering ^conflicting viewpoints^ (and others) re BK's G or NG.

What doubt is reasonable doubt?

Is reasonable doubt about one piece of evidence sufficient for jury to vote NG?

Good question!

I think based on the incomplete list of things we know, the case will be decided pre-trial. If the DNA comes in, then in my view he will be found guilty.

To disturb that, he needs some circumstantial evidence that attacks the reliability of the DNA evidence. That would traditionally tend to be something like contamination etc - but i really don't see how they get that to stick. Simply claiming DNA is all around and by chance his DNA is at the crime scene on the murder weapon? Will never fly.

The reason I suggest posters focus on supportable legal inferences is because the blood at the crime scene is not exculpatory.

Nothing links that blood with the crime, so it does not raise any inference, as opposed to where you had something additional - like that unknown blood had been found on the sheath and thus raises an inference that the killer was injured.

MOO
 
  • #824
IMO, which is worth diddly squat, it takes time to eloquently state a judicial opinion (ruling). His body language spoke volumes & it’s obvious to at least this moron that he will be giving this his utmost consideration. On the surface, he seems to be a level headed & fair judge.

He is obviously in no rush & if I am being honest, putting my personal opinions aside, I believe his decision will be fair & just whether it aligns with my &/or popular opinion.

MOO

ETA Super Bowl beers have me on repeat. Sorry.

What i was getting at is no hearing in the 3 week window has been announced, so its now too late in the day - we can likely guess the Judge is not scheduling one, and is denying Franks.
 
  • #825
SBMFF.

Reasonable doubt is made of things that "prove nothing or amount to wild speculation." I hardly think they'll be put aside. MOO.

I disagree with this.

Reasonable doubt means a version that is reasonably possibly true, not merely speculative.

The defendant will need to point to pieces of circumstantial evidence that the jury 1) accepts, and 2) which raise exculpatory inference

So in the investigative phase, LE finds unknown blood, but can't run it down. While you might speculate it could belong to the killer in that phase, this does not raise any potentially exculpatory inference as it stands because nothing connects it to the crime, and even if it did, it does nothing to disturb the idea that the defendant is the owner of the sheath.

MOO
 
  • #826
It all comes down to their client, and if he wants to roll the dice or not. We've seen plenty of cases where there's overwhelming evidence, where the defendant still refuses to play ball.

I do think it's likely to go to trial, and I really want it to go to trial (selfishly). I want to know everything.
Do you believe the state has offered BK a plea deal and he has refused it? None of us can know but it seems incredibly unlikely to me any offer has been made. Or by a likely refusal to "play ball" do you mean he won't authorize his attorneys to seek a deal? I think that would be a fruitless effort if it did happen but I agree it probably hasn't.
MOO
 
  • #827
What i was getting at is no hearing in the 3 week window has been announced, so its now too late in the day - we can likely guess the Judge is not scheduling one, and is denying Franks.
Fully agreed & wasn’t intending to be implying anything different. I feel quite confident it is safe to say it would be a very unique scenario where our overall opinions would not be in agreement. Hope that is mutual & understood. If it were ever the case to be otherwise, I am also confident we could discuss those differences & leave it at that with full respect intact. :)

ETA I was rambling but agreeing with your assessment.
 
  • #828
What i was getting at is no hearing in the 3 week window has been announced, so its now too late in the day - we can likely guess the Judge is not scheduling one, and is denying Franks.
I'm dangling on a bit of a tenterhook just now. My Monday is more than half over, so trying to remember that in Idaho Boise, the court clerk isn't going to work for some hours yet. Waiting for any hypothetical filings from last week that the clerk could upload Monday, Idaho time.
 
  • #829
I believe that BK's DNA will be enough to get this case over the line, but I am also crossing my fingers that there will also be irrefutable online evidence of stalking and obsession.
 
  • #830
I'm dangling on a bit of a tenterhook just now. My Monday is more than half over, so trying to remember that in Idaho Boise, the court clerk isn't going to work for some hours yet. Waiting for any hypothetical filings from last week that the clerk could upload Monday, Idaho time.

let's see!

I have no problem if the Judge decides to hold one.
 
  • #831
Maybe, except the jurors desired won’t be commenting on a TC forum. None of us should rightfully be on a jury if we’re being honest.

MOO
I honestly have opted out of 2 jury request ,for this exact issue.
Those questionnaires will but a solid person though it.
Also I am almost always honest. I just feel gross if I lie.
 
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  • #832
DM’s testimony is minor for me. It’s all of the other evidence. I just don’t see an entire jury coming back with a not guilty verdict. A hold out or two to acquit, maybe people that expect a case to be they way they see it on tv, okay. But I believe there will be others that will refuse to let this guy walk. His best hope is a hung jury and a mistrial. And then they’ll go again.
Agreed, but I think DM's testimony will be important, she described BK accurately. She did not say short, dumpy guy with coiffed eyebrows lol.

My prediction is BK is going down period. I truly believe him to be the killer and the only person involved in the killings, and the State will prove that BARD.

JMO
 
  • #833
He did. That window ends this week. No filed notice of hearing. No filed order for Franks hearing. I suppose, strictly speaking, that's not to say these filings don't exist and are just late being uploaded. But jmo if there haven't been off the record communications between the court and parties re a hearing for a day this week, then there's no time left for court to reasonably order a hearing for, say, Thursday or Friday. It wouldn't be Hippler's style to pull a surprise on the parties with only a few days notice. Jmo and assuming no off record comms to alter the time table.
I understood his statement to mean "give me a date(s) within the next 3 weeks that works for you in case a Franks happens" rather than he'd be holding a Franks within 3 weeks. I could def be wrong, that was 2 days of drawn out testimony.

JMO
 
  • #834
I think the Judges shot clock is running out on a potential Franks??

Didn’t he indicate a three week window for the hearing?

IMO
Window for the State and Defense to provide date(s) they could be available if one happened is how I understood it.

JMO
 
  • #835
What forensic examination has almost certainly shown (and early on):

1. The length, width and construction of the knife blade (from the wounds).
2. If the most modern techniques were used, the type of metal from which the knife was constructed. I have no reason to think that the forensics people in Washington State skimped - they have true state of the art technology and have had a lot of time to run tests.

If these two things are known, well, KA-BAR Knives have a proprietary coating on the blade - so I would respectfully suggest that the investigators already know it was indeed a KA-BAR knife that fits into the KA-BAR sheath found at the crime scene.

I think a jury will be able to follow this line of investigation.

Personal opinion: I think LE also has evidence of several purchases made by BK, over quite a period of time. I will be very surprised if they can't find a receipt for his knife purchase, although it's possible he paid cash at a brick and mortar store. But my gut feeling is that he did not do that. I also believe that BK had shown the knife to other people (family members, others) and that they can be called as witnesses to him possessing such a knife. These are my opinions, of course.

I also think it is very odd for anyone to believe that the knife belonged to one of the deceased (and I believe there is going to be clear evidence that the two women upstairs were killed first - so that scenario requires one of the two downstairs victims to have the knife, go upstairs, leave the sheath, then stab themselves and die (and without leaving the knife nearby).

We know that BK pulled up to the house that night and was in the vicinity. The knife is missing. It isn't near any of the victims. Someone took it out of the house. I of course believe that someone was BK. And I also believe that LE/Prosecution has evidence of him owning such a knife and of him being at the house not only in the wee hours of that Sunday - but later on, at around 9:30 am. If he did go back for the knife (or something else), how did he even know the knife had been used if it wasn't his? Why is he at the house those two times? Too much coincidence for me.

I do not believe that Kaylee or anyone had that knife, killed three people and then, themselves, with that knife. I do not believe that either of the surviving roommates is the murderer.

Fact: The ME agrees with me that no one suicided in that house. They were all murdered. A roommate sees a strange man in the house following some commotion-like noise of dog growling/whatever upstairs. This person is not one of the victims, is alive and walking around.

IMO
So good to read you 10ofrods! This had me belly laughing (as usual in an appreciative way!) at certain places. Great points. ( Dry/ wry sense of humour is gold.:D).
 
  • #836
I understood his statement to mean "give me a date(s) within the next 3 weeks that works for you in case a Franks happens" rather than he'd be holding a Franks within 3 weeks. I could def be wrong, that was 2 days of drawn out testimony.

JMO
Yeah, that sounds right. What I'm waiting for is the three week period in which those dates might be indicated to pass, as that indicates to me that Franks is very likely not on table. If he's decided against, could be Judge Hippler may take more time yet to complete the reasoning behind his ruling. Any order denying the motion might be some way off yet. OTOH maybe sooner!

No filing agreeing to D motion and making a hearing date by end of Monday, to me will feel like Hippler's likely decided against.
 
  • #837
That's a thing I'm noticing more and more now, not just in this case, but in practically every murder case in general. The standard has changed from reasonable doubt, to no doubt. It's wild, because based on what some of these people expect, virtually no murder case is prosecutable.
Case in point: Casey Anthony trial.
 
  • #838
  • #839
Yeah, that sounds right. What I'm waiting for is the three week period in which those dates might be indicated to pass, as that indicates to me that Franks is very likely not on table. If he's decided against, could be Judge Hippler may take more time yet to complete the reasoning behind his ruling. Any order denying the motion might be some way off yet. OTOH maybe sooner!

No filing agreeing to D motion and making a hearing date by end of Monday, to me will feel like Hippler's likely decided against.
That hearing did not go well at all for the defense IMO.

His questions and criticisms of the Defense's claims of injury were pointed, and used sound legal reasoning. I cringed, multiple times. And at one moment felt bad for AT when she said something akin to "it's my job to present these arguments" when faced with the ridiculousness of some of them. JMO

Meanwhile, his counters to the prosecution seemed in deference to fairness and balance. JMO

I wouldn't be surprised if he hadn't already made up his mind right there and then. So totally agree that the hold up might be reasoning behind his opinion.
 
  • #840
Do you believe the state has offered BK a plea deal and he has refused it? None of us can know but it seems incredibly unlikely to me any offer has been made. Or by a likely refusal to "play ball" do you mean he won't authorize his attorneys to seek a deal? I think that would be a fruitless effort if it did happen but I agree it probably hasn't.
MOO
There's no telling if a deal has been offered, but I see no reason not to make that offer. They have the leverage of the death penalty, so why not put a deal of LWOP out there? Even if the prosecution hasn't made an offer, the defense can always go to them and see if they're amenable to it.

I think this is trial all the way though.
 
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