4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

[Megnut]

There's no telling if a deal has been offered, but I see no reason not to make that offer. They have the leverage of the death penalty, so why not put a deal of LWOP out there? Even if the prosecution hasn't made an offer, the defense can always go to them and see if they're amenable to it.

I think this is trial all the way though.

I agree.

BK has literally nothing better to do.

He wants to do this.

JMO

 

[Jade]

I think I see the misunderstandings of court standards that's leading to some premature predications.

The phase Reasonable Doubt really means Significant Doubt which a reasonable person would have after considering all the evidence. Not an imaginary doubt.

This doubt must arise from the evidence presented in court. Reasonable doubt is not the same as guessing or imaging possible scenarios that are not supported by the evidence presented.

First we have the Burden of Proof which is a high standard of proof meaning the Prosecution must present very definite evidence to prove guilt that the evidence is so convincing that it leaves no reasonable explanation other than the defendant’s guilt.

To make the decision with absolute certainly the standard of proof is reasonable instead of “without any doubt”.

Now there is the Presumption of Innocence. If the evidence lends itself to two reasonable interpretations the juror must choose the interpretation consistent with the defendant’s innocence. If there is only one reasonable interpretation they must accept that interpretation and consider the evidence with all the other evidence in the case to make the decisions.

Jurors are not take any “Unreasonable Doubts” into consideration of declaring a verdict. “Unreasonable Doubt” is doubt that refers to substantial doubt or skepticism based on nonexistent or insufficient evidence. This means the jurors should look at the evidence presented not the evidence the defense could be lacking or evidence the prosecution did not present.

Simply the jurors will take each piece of evidence to consider does this make BK look innocent based only on what is presented in court. Then with the totality of evidence considered does a reasonable person have significant doubt of guilt.



All imo and experience

 

[CKS]

Even IF the sheath belonged to one of the victims-which I don't believe in this case, it's not exculpatory for him because murder victims get murdered with their own guns and knives all the time. Also, there's the fact that he purchased an identical knife on Amazon.

All MOO

What are you talking about?

Who purchased the same knife on Amazon?

 

[Balthazar]

[Mod edit snark] it's a possibility that the victims were murdered by their own kbar! BK took the knife and forgot the sheathe, which he'd taken his gloves off to open just after he found it with the knife in a bedside draw where said victim kept it for protection. The survivors told LE the sheathe belonged to the victim and the knife was missing. But instead of following it up, Investigators inexplicably went ahead with executing warrants looking for the buyer of another knife.

People who have weapons for self protection rarely tell others of their existence unless it is a husband or wife. It is highly unlikely that BF or DM would know if any of their roommates had such a weapon in their room.

 

[MassGuy]

People who have weapons for self protection rarely tell others of their existence unless it is a husband or wife. It is highly unlikely that BF or DM would know if any of their roommates had such a weapon in their room.

Yeah, no. A tiny minority of college girls probably keep combat knives for protection, and in a living situation like this, you can bet everyone would know. Have you ever met a college girl?

It's a pointless discussion anyway. BK came armed with that knife. He was on a mission.

 

[Tricia]

Even IF the sheath belonged to one of the victims-which I don't believe in this case, it's not exculpatory for him because murder victims get murdered with their own guns and knives all the time. Also, there's the fact that he purchased an identical knife on Amazon.

There is a report from Dateline that he bought a Ka-Bar knife from Amazon.
Here is a report discussing the Dateline find.

Bryan Kohberger bought Ka-Bar knife from Amazon months before murders

Accused killer to appear in court for arraignment on four counts of first-degree murder and burglary

www.the-independent.com

If this has already been reported on the thread my apologies.
Tricia

 

[wendy44]

Reasonable doubt in this case to me is evidence the knife/sheath was purchased in a local store where BK could have wandered in and touched it. If there is evidence he purchased a knife/sheath on Amazon or elsewhere and can't produce it, that reasonable doubt goes away.
JMO

 

[SortaSleuthy]

Yeah, no. A tiny minority of college girls probably keep combat knives for protection, and in a living situation like this, you can bet everyone would know. Have you ever met a college girl?

It's a pointless discussion anyway. BK came armed with that knife. He was on a mission.

Agree.
I can’t imagine anyone having a combat knife for protection. That means they are only preparing for close hand to hand combat with an assailant. Flashback to the classic scene in an Indiana Jones movie where the assailant had the big curved knife and Harrison Ford shot him with a pistol.
A pistol or long gun is much better against any weapon an assailant might have.

If you aren’t trained for hand to hand combat - a ball bat, a length of pipe, a can of hair spray or a cup of hot coffee is much better against an assailant with a knife.

 

[MassGuy]

Reasonable doubt in this case to me is evidence the knife/sheath was purchased in a local store where BK could have wandered in and touched it. If there is evidence he purchased a knife/sheath on Amazon or elsewhere and can't produce it, that reasonable doubt goes away.
JMO

I don't even think that scenario could ever be proven. I doubt that sheath is serialized, so you wouldn't be able to find out where it was purchased. Also, from what I've seen, the display models are typically behind glass. The one you purchase comes in a sealed box.

That's a good angle for the defense though, or would be.

 

[NCWatcher]

There is a report from Dateline that he bought a Ka-Bar knife from Amazon.
Here is a report discussing the Dateline find.

Bryan Kohberger bought Ka-Bar knife from Amazon months before murders

Accused killer to appear in court for arraignment on four counts of first-degree murder and burglary

www.the-independent.com

If this has already been reported on the thread my apologies.
Tricia

I'd not seen the 2023 Dateline report so thanks. I find it less than convincing. It seems to be based mostly on anonymous sources and ex-gov't agents' musings including this gem from The Independent about Dateline's report:

"The report indicates that Mr Kohberger took the knife with him when he moved."

While taking his possessions with him when he moved to WA would be normal, how would anyone know that he took the knife? I guess his sister could have been constantly snooping through his stuff at the parents' house...

This article

Idaho authorities probe Amazon 'click activity' for knives possibly connected to college killings

seems to say Amazon data (data immediately sealed) were received by LE in response to warrants served in July 2023, 3 months after Dateline revealed the Amazon knife purchase. Dateline says the purchase happened in April 2022, a time period the warrants to Amazon apparently don't cover.
MOO

 

[Justice101]

There is a report from Dateline that he bought a Ka-Bar knife from Amazon.
Here is a report discussing the Dateline find.

Bryan Kohberger bought Ka-Bar knife from Amazon months before murders

Accused killer to appear in court for arraignment on four counts of first-degree murder and burglary

www.the-independent.com

If this has already been reported on the thread my apologies.
Tricia

Wow, if true... I didn't know that the family was so suspicious that BK had been the murderer that they searched his car themselves. WOW

 

[Jade]

[...]

By that point, police said Mr Kohberger had already been spotted cleaning his car out with bleach and so the family members didn’t find anything of note, the source said.


[...]
Bryan Kohberger bought Ka-Bar knife from Amazon months before murders


all imo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Beyond all possible doubt is not the same as reasonable doubt. One excuse does not erase everything else at all. Come up with all excuses you can, BK is going to have to prove the doors his attorneys open are true, no different than the state.

He is cooked. His DNA has no business being in that house. If it was placed there, the defense has to prove that it was placed there. That is the bottom line, whether Bigfoot owns the knife, sheath or the car. If the defense decides to open doors of doubt, then they have to prove it beyond reason. That is a very long & wide open street & we’re not even touching security camera evidence or cell phone evidence. What we know today WILL change once the trial begins - just ask the KC fans from the past year. No weapon, no problem.

Good luck Bryan, I hope you’re as confident in July as you are tonight.

I’ve got squirrels to feed. Have fun folks.

MOO

What differentiates reasonable doubt from all doubt is in the opinion of the beholder.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I disagree with this.

Reasonable doubt means a version that is reasonably possibly true, not merely speculative.

The defendant will need to point to pieces of circumstantial evidence that the jury 1) accepts, and 2) which raise exculpatory inference

So in the investigative phase, LE finds unknown blood, but can't run it down. While you might speculate it could belong to the killer in that phase, this does not raise any potentially exculpatory inference as it stands because nothing connects it to the crime, and even if it did, it does nothing to disturb the idea that the defendant is the owner of the sheath.

MOO

It is not up to the defendant to point to evidence that is potentially exculpatory. All the defense has to do is put enough questions in the minds of the jury about his guilt. Without the DNA, this case has reasonable doubt all over it. With the DNA, it becomes a bit harder, but not impossible.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Simply the jurors will take each piece of evidence to consider does this make BK look innocent based only on what is presented in court. Then with the totality of evidence considered does a reasonable person have significant doubt of guilt.

All imo and experience

SBMFF

The foundation of our judicial system is based on presumption of innocence, as you said. This paragraph appears to contradict that very basic requirement. IMO, they look at each piece of evidence to consider if it suggests GUILT. That's the whole point of the trial -- to determine if the evidence shows a person is guilty, not to determine if the evidence shows a person is innocent. To examine the evidence by considering if it points to innocence implies a starting assumption of guilt.

MOO.

 

[Justice101]

It is not up to the defendant to point to evidence that is potentially exculpatory. All the defense has to do is put enough questions in the minds of the jury about his guilt. Without the DNA, this case has reasonable doubt all over it. With the DNA, it becomes a bit harder, but not impossible.

MOO.

Not impossible, I agree. But extremely highly unlikely more like it.

IMHO this one is very clear cut to me from the standpoint of a jury:
1) DNA, DNA, DNA... cannot be explained away. His and only his DNA on the sheath. And on the inside of a snap. Not the outside cow hide as if he brushed up against it somewhere unknown.
2) Circumstantial evidence that when taken in its totality, will lead a reasonable person to only one conclusion: I think it will be that BK did it. Namely: a) white Elantra with only 1 license plate, b) eyewitness description that he cannot be excluded, c) GPS/cell phone data heading in the direction of Moscow then mysteriously showing back up 10 miles south of town in the wee hours before and after the murders, d) BK behaving suspiciously in PA which will be interpreted as hiding evidence.

What are the chances of having an Elantra? (my guess is 3%). And a white Elantra nonetheless (20%) And with only one license plate = let's say 8%. Someone driving at 3AM (5% but only that high because it is a college town), % of people who turned off their cell phone around the time of the murder maybe 4% (90% of the world is still asleep). Yeh, I know you can't get % phone turned off data. Bottom line, multiply all those unlikely things together and you get 0.0005% chance that all these coincidences happened randomly to BK.

Yes, I made these stats up but the point is when you string together several highly unlikely events, you get an astronomical low chance that it would be coincidence.

I feel that jurors will be given a nice presentation doubting how can there be a series of coincidences like this just randomly happen?.

JMO... but based on some experience.

 

[mrjitty]

It is not up to the defendant to point to evidence that is potentially exculpatory. All the defense has to do is put enough questions in the minds of the jury about his guilt. Without the DNA, this case has reasonable doubt all over it. With the DNA, it becomes a bit harder, but not impossible.

MOO.

sure but in practice those questions will need to be based on admissible evidence not in speculation.

 

[INfisherman]

What differentiates reasonable doubt from all doubt is in the opinion of the beholder.

Respectfully, I will take a court’s jury instruction definition over yours every day of the week & twice on Sunday.

3.5 REASONABLE DOUBT—DEFINED ​

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof that leaves you firmly convinced the defendant is guilty. It is not required that the government prove guilt beyond all possible doubt.

A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation. It may arise from a careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or from lack of evidence.

3.5 Reasonable Doubt—Defined | Model Jury Instructions

www.ce9.uscourts.gov

 

[BUF]

[...]

By that point, police said Mr Kohberger had already been spotted cleaning his car out with bleach and so the family members didn’t find anything of note, the source said.


[...]
Bryan Kohberger bought Ka-Bar knife from Amazon months before murders


all imo

This one thing alone shows guilt in my book and I think jurors will feel the same….trying to get rid of any dna that could be left in or on the vehicle.

Who do you know that uses bleach to clean the “inside and outside” of their car….other than reading about someone trying to cover up a crime? Bleach also leaves a distinct lingering odor. Wonder if the family checking out the car noticed the smell.



Moreover, fresh bleach, stored bleach, Trigene®, and sodium hypochlorite were very efficient in removing DNA, with recoveries from 0.0 to 0.3% from all surfaces.
Evaluation of Different Cleaning Strategies for Removal of Contaminating DNA Molecules - PMC.

 

[CKS]

This one thing alone shows guilt in my book and I think jurors will feel the same….trying to get rid of any dna that could be left in or on the vehicle.

Who do you know that uses bleach to clean the “inside and outside” of their car….other than reading about someone trying to cover up a crime? Bleach also leaves a distinct lingering odor. Wonder if the family checking out the car noticed the smell.



Moreover, fresh bleach, stored bleach, Trigene®, and sodium hypochlorite were very efficient in removing DNA, with recoveries from 0.0 to 0.3% from all surfaces.
Evaluation of Different Cleaning Strategies for Removal of Contaminating DNA Molecules - PMC.

All MOO


The bleach story is not true. There was no evidence of him 'cleaning' his car and not a spec of actual evidence in his car, apartment, office, etc.

If BK had anything to do with the murders one thing is certain he didn't use his car to do it in my opinion.