4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

[StarryStarryNight]

We don't know if the sheath goes to the murder weapon at this point. For all we know, the knife and sheath could have belonged to a victim for self protection and was taken from her by the killer. It could then have become the murder weapon or some other edged weapon was the murder weapon. I don't think we should assume anything yet.

First, even if what you say here is true, there is no reason for BK’s DNA to be on ANYTHING in that house.
So, you’re saying that one of the victims had a knife she kept in her bed in a sheath that just happened to have BK’s DNA on it? That is a stretch worthy of veteran circus performers.
I don’t have any problem connecting from dot to dot here. BK has DNA. BK’s DNA is on knife sheath. Knife sheath is under young woman killed by knife. BK owned that knife. BK had no reason to be in that house. BK killed that young woman and her friends.
I haven’t seen anything that makes me think differently.

 

[Jade]

That's interesting. I don't believe I've been given that exact instruction when serving as a juror. The footnote in the link also notes the alternate wording "you must be firmly convinced of the defendant 's guilt..." can be used per the Ninth Circuit. I do remember being given that one.

Whenever people are told to use "common sense" to make a decision though, that seems to suggest subjective and experiential factors can and should be involved (as in opinions.) Common sense may lead to false conclusions as well. The Problem With Common Sense.
MOO

Jury instructions are modified from the Model Jury Instructions to suit each cases specific facts and legal issues to make sure the jury understands the law applied.

Voir Dire questions allow attorneys to see how a perspective juror comes to conclusions with jurors being excused based on their answers.

Definition of COMMON SENSE

sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

All imo

 

[Charlot123]

One of the most likely reasons that the sample indoors on the hand rail was not eligible is that it was old, degraded and partial.

A partial profile is incomplete. It doesn't have enough information to put into a system like CODIS and be specific enough to identify or eliminate a suspect with the degree of certainty required.

MOO

Well, I am wondering if they were in a rush to compare BK’s profile and now, given the noise related to private database, they can’t use it for the other two, and they don’t get hits in CODIS.

It doesn’t prevent them from exploring these DNAs, partial or full, getting as much information about them as possible. This is totally fine. 1:itself or 1:1 raises no questions.

The question emerges when one hears that there are several different DNA samples and only one was investigated. Touch DNA, yes, but not the one from blood?

 

[NCWatcher]

Jury instructions are modified from the Model Jury Instructions to suit each cases specific facts and legal issues to make sure the jury understands the law applied.

Voir Dire questions allow attorneys to see how a perspective juror comes to conclusions with jurors being excused based on their answers.

Definition of COMMON SENSE

sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

All imo

Yes. It was my impression though one can only go so far in modifying the instructions about reasonable doubt and burden of proof (vs instructions about the criteria that make up/define a particular crime.)
MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Well, I am wondering if they were in a rush to compare BK’s profile and now, given the noise related to private database, they can’t use it for the other two, and they don’t get hits in CODIS.

It doesn’t prevent them from exploring these DNAs, partial or full, getting as much information about them as possible. This is totally fine. 1:itself or 1:1 raises no questions.

The question emerges when one hears that there are several different DNA samples and only one was investigated. Touch DNA, yes, but not the one from blood?

The fact that they know they didn't meet the threshold for CODIS means they were investigated. The samples were collected following protocol and tested in a lab using the appropriate standards.

There's no conspiracy here.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

All MOO

What are you talking about?

Who purchased the same knife on Amazon?

Kohlberger. Who else?

 

[Arkay]

Jury instructions are modified from the Model Jury Instructions to suit each cases specific facts and legal issues to make sure the jury understands the law applied.

Voir Dire questions allow attorneys to see how a perspective juror comes to conclusions with jurors being excused based on their answers.

Definition of COMMON SENSE

sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

All imo

I’m scheduled for jury duty on February 18th.

I hate doing it because it’s SUCH a grind and is an imposition on my life, but if I am chosen for a jury again, I will do my utmost to do my civic duty.

I always pay strict attention to jury instructions, and I tell the truth.

I have been out on voir dire before for telling the truth, but I will do what is required of me. If I were a prospective juror for Luigi Mangione’s case I would tell them I’ve made up my mind about him, but if selected I’d listen to all the evidence.

 

[LinasK]

SBMFF. No, it wasn't. The fact is, the murder weapon has not been located.

Finding the sheath to a murder weapon at a crime scene is nearly as good as having the murder weapon itself. A knife sheath is equivalent to a gun holster. It held the murder weapon and wouldn't be there without the murder weapon. It got accidentally dropped and left behind. It's evidence with the suspect's DNA on it. Often the murder weapons themselves are ditched and not recovered.

 

[Cool Cats]

We don't know if the sheath goes to the murder weapon at this point. For all we know, the knife and sheath could have belonged to a victim for self protection and was taken from her by the killer. It could then have become the murder weapon or some other edged weapon was the murder weapon. I don't think we should assume anything yet.

Makes no sense. If a victim uncomfortably slept on a sheath with knife the 2 of them - knife and sheath belonged together. Sheath does go to the murder weapon.

So what if a found knife was found in bed and BK brought no knife? He still used it to kill 4 people.

If this sheath and knife belonged to a victim for protection of themselves, then DNA would be all over the snap. The victim's DNA and probably her friend's DNA.

The snap was single source DNA only addressed to BK's DNA match.

Juries do not need to write down a hundred "Maybe this or maybe that happened."

The clear DNA evidence shows plenty.

2 Cents

 

[Charlot123]

The fact that they know they didn't meet the threshold for CODIS means they were investigated. The samples were collected following protocol and tested in a lab using the appropriate standards.

There's no conspiracy here.

MOO

You are entitled to your opinion, I merely like to weigh “pros” and “cons”. If we didn’t do it, and just followed headlines, we’d not learn. (I was doing it in LL’s case, for example. Following it now; very interesting.)

There are some things that are “pro” BK, and some are against. I always think that the sheath could have been intentionally placed. Also, among the reasons for the murders, “obsession” is not on my personal top. But, as i said, who knows. Human behavior is unpredictable.

 

[LinasK]

People might expect not only high standards for the burden of proof.

People sometimes doubt that the alibis were as well-checked, and some recent cases give them ample reason to doubt.

Personally, I do feel upset about some cases, too, like Suzanne Morphew’s one. When will justice be done there?

Looking at it from the opposite side, though, one badly patched up case in a different state automatically increases requirements to all subsequent ones.

About BK. What gives me uneasy feeling about him is the reaction of these women in a restaurant in PA. Remember, when he was asked to leave because he gave them creeps? Such nonverbal signals I tend to trust.

Yet the problem with the murders in Idaho lies, it seems, in the house that has been known as a “party” one long before the victims moved in there. It also seems that the house had a very poor protection. Add to it no firm evidence of stalking or obsession by BK who is a total outsider plus the fact that the four victims were vibrant, social, active and well-known in town, and the dire need to prove that it was him becomes obvious. JMO.

Sounds like victim blaming because their house wasn't secure enough/they weren't discriminating/aware that they were being watched/stalked. I strongly think despite what's been publicly said that there WILL be evidence brought forward at trial of him having stalked one of more of the girls. I think that they are keeping it close to the vest for now.

 

[LinasK]

Makes no sense. If a victim uncomfortably slept on a sheath with knife the 2 of them - knife and sheath belonged together. Sheath does go to the murder weapon.

So what if a found knife was found in bed and BK brought no knife? He still used it to kill 4 people.

If this sheath and knife belonged to a victim for protection of themselves, then DNA would be all over the snap. The victim's DNA and probably her friend's DNA.

The snap was single source DNA only addressed to BK's DNA match.

Juries do not need to write down a hundred "Maybe this or maybe that happened."

The clear DNA evidence shows plenty.

2 Cents

Plus the other roommates are alive and can testify to knowledge of whether any of the victims owned a knife like that.

 

[MassGuy]

I was looking for more on that Dateline episode that mentioned the knife sheath, along with other revelations. I found these comments by Keith Morrison to be pretty interesting.

"We have sources in and around the investigation, and we have spoken to some of the leading authorities anywhere on some of the questions involved in this particular case," Morrison said.

Additionally, Dateline shared the story of a student who was in one of Kohberger's TA classes at Washington State University:
"Who thought she had a break in, and needed somebody to put in a security system - a camera in her apartment, and he volunteered to do so," Morrison said. "He is now a suspect both in the initial break in, and for reasons of putting a camera in her apartment, to which he would have had access."

"When you trace his early life, it matches certain kinds of behaviors," Morrison said. "Talking about seeing visual snow, for example. About the kind of dissociative episodes he would have gone through as a young person, and the resulting need to kind of level the playing field in a very visceral and intimate way, with people who have rejected him in the past, or some representative of people who have rejected him in the past - especially young women, with whom he had always been awkward and had some difficulty relating to."

Dateline NBC's Keith Morrison discusses Bryan Kohberger, Idaho murder case

Keith Morrison spoke with KTVB ahead of Friday's Dateline special "The Killings on King Road" about NBC's reporting to uncover new information in the case.

www.ktvb.com

 

[Cool Cats]

But for one DNA, the feds went as far as a private database. For two more, male, one in blood on a bannister and another, in a glove, they didn’t do the same amount of work, right? I can see the defense’s logic.

Look there are reasons for all this. Scientific reasons. Please sight the 3 links to show this.

1.) Private Data Base? Why? What data base?
2.) Blood on a bannister they didn’t do the same amount of work for? What kind of work? Why?
3.) Fluid maybe DNA in a discarded glove? They didn’t do the same amount of work for? What kind of work? Why?

2 Cents

 

[LinasK]

People who have weapons for self protection rarely tell others of their existence unless it is a husband or wife. It is highly unlikely that BF or DM would know if any of their roommates had such a weapon in their room.

With these girls, given how close these roommates were, I think they would know or tell each other if they'd purchased a knife.

 

[Cool Cats]

With these girls, given how close these roommates were, I think they would know or tell each other if they'd purchased a knife.

And that they were sleeping on it and there would be the girl's DNA on the snap in my opinion.

Who the heck sleeps on a large military sheath and knife. Not reasonable.

2 Cents

 

[LinasK]

It is not up to the defendant to point to evidence that is potentially exculpatory. All the defense has to do is put enough questions in the minds of the jury about his guilt. Without the DNA, this case has reasonable doubt all over it. With the DNA, it becomes a bit harder, but not impossible.

MOO.

I don't see the reasonable doubt, even without the DNA- his cell phone data, his car in the vicinity of the murder house- why not stargaze in Pullman??? I'm sure it's sufficiently dark there.

 

[LinasK]

Do we have an official statement that it is a partial profile? Is there a link? It is slightly unusual as blood has tons of leukocytes and usually is a much better source of DNA than a touch DNA from, say, a fingerprint. Logically, you get DNA from nucleated cells. Where else but in blood?

Anyhow, I have missed the “partial” statement. I would like to know what “partial” means, how many kb? They know it is a “male”, meaning, they have a Y? No law can prevent them from running it through FTDNA. Not for comparison, for typing. A rare Y subclade in itself is a gem, tbh.

I worked with partial profiles while playing with Lazarus…at the time when Gedmatch was free and fun. Depends on the size of the partial DNA, I’d say. You still can get family matches. Depends on the size and the side of the family. Mitochondrial DNA is usually available, too. And, Gedmatch is not off-limits, far from it. And, mainly, I need to read somewhere that it was partial. Usually, blood is a great source of DNA.

Most likely the blood on the banister that you are hypothesizing about is due to a previous tenant or partygoer and is very old, and that's why it's degraded "partial" and not relevant to the investigation. They ruled it out- not an accomplice, 2nd murderer, alternative suspect. It isn't more important than Kohlberger's DNA on the snap of the murder sheath under the victim! Kohlberger wasn't at any of their parties so why is his DNA in the house???

 

[al66pine]

"Reasonable Doubt" Definition in ID. Jury instructions

Respectfully, I will take a court’s jury instruction definition over yours every day of the week & twice on Sunday.

3.5 REASONABLE DOUBT—DEFINED ​

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is proof that leaves you firmly convinced the defendant is guilty. It is not required that the government prove guilt beyond all possible doubt.

A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation. It may arise from a careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or from lack of evidence.

3.5 Reasonable Doubt—Defined | Model Jury Instructions

www.ce9.uscourts.gov

@INfisherman
Just a tech point, FWIW, source of above quote & citation re jury instrux is uscourts.gov, i.e. for FEDERAL court.
I found this for crim. cases in ID. have not compared line by line to the fed def., but likely quite similar. Clip is from ID. PRE-PROOF (pre-trial) JI, p. 3.

"PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE-REASONABLE DOUBT"
"....Second, the state must prove the alleged crime beyond
a reasonable doubt. A reasonable doubt is not a mere
possible or imaginary doubt. It is a doubt based on reason
and common sense. It may arise from a careful and impartial
consideration of all the evidence, or from lack of
evidence. If after considering all the evidence you have a
reasonable doubt about the defendant's guilt, you must find
the defendant not guilty. "
Same pdf includes other pre-proof instrux.

https://isc.idaho.gov/jury/criminal/100/100PreProofInstr-All.pdf

The full monty of ID. crim JI.

Criminal Jury Instructions | Supreme Court

isc.idaho.gov

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Plus the other roommates are alive and can testify to knowledge of whether any of the victims owned a knife like that.

Oooooo! I didn’t think of that but that easily clears everything up doesn’t it.
Nice.