4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

[girlhasnoname]

Yea, he does appear shrunken owing to chair height and maybe also he appears thinner to me but hard to tell really.

The thing I find very strangely off and odd is Eliza Massoth's continuous smile during the first portion of day 1 on 23rd Jan, at least in the opening section where AT is mounting her privacy/ 4th amendment argument and Judge is intervening with questions and queries. It really stands out because IMO it is entirely out of place. I re-watched this section a few hours ago ( is posted just up thread) and looked around at everyone else in the room. No-one else is smiling and EM's smiling to me is a strange instance of inappropriate affect. A curiosity I guess but uggh. Jmo

The Defense was really off their game both days IMO. AT, EM, even Logsdon and it showed. I think Judge Hippler is a lot more probative and direct than Judge JJ, who I think is secretly celebrating the COV move and the fact that he no longer has this heavy burden of a case on his back.

Pour one out for J Trips.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

I believe at trial we will find out his DNA was all over the place. When someone is using a knife in an attack it's very common as you stab and you get blood on your hand for that hand to slip down the knife and you cut yourself. So its my opinion you dont walk out of a crime scene w/o leaving your DNA. moo

 

[iamshadow21]

I believe at trial we will find out his DNA was all over the place. When someone is using a knife in an attack it's very common as you stab and you get blood on your hand for that hand to slip down the knife and you cut yourself. So its my opinion you dont walk out of a crime scene w/o leaving your DNA. moo

If he used a kbar style knife, then that is far less likely, because of the design of the hilt. The crossbar is specifically designed to prevent slippage, as is the texture on the handle. It's a tool for killing, and has the mechanics of that in mind in its design.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I believe at trial we will find out his DNA was all over the place. When someone is using a knife in an attack it's very common as you stab and you get blood on your hand for that hand to slip down the knife and you cut yourself. So its my opinion you dont walk out of a crime scene w/o leaving your DNA. moo

Hi A, that is usually true, but the KBAR knife specifically has a guard around the handle to keep your hand from slipping down towards the blade. 2-3 quick, well placed blows could have killed all of them.

BK also worked at a fish market for a short time according to his job application for Pullman (?) PD, so between having the practice of using of knives and the upper arm strength from boxing, I think he could have done this easily in 4-7 minutes.

JMO

 

[Arkay]

Respectfully, I don't think it accurate to say nobody can get away with an assault rape without leaving DNA. It's happened many times before in cases. I don't think rape was the main motivating factor in these deaths to begin with.

JMO

Condoms come to mind as a way of committing rape without leaving semen DNA, but I would guess there’d be skin cells from putting the condom on.

Unless a rapist forces the victim to put on the condom?

I feel like I’m overlooking something, though.

 

[Megnut]

I think stabbing a sleeping victim was the fantasy, his own sick brand of intimacy and violation. All about control. And something he could relive, in a most one-sided way, a movie reel in his head, for his own purposes.

Young female in her own bed, no way there isn't a sexual element in that. MOO.

Had everyone else been asleep behind their own closed doors, he might not have lost the sheath in the shuffle, and IMO, it would only have been a matter of time until he struck again. Serial killer.

It is the presence of the other roommates IMO that led to his DNA being left at the scene. His misjudged the situation. It also destroyed his stealth. Suddenly he wasn't a somebody prowler. If the surviving roommates left their rooms, IMO he'd have massacred everyone there, not because he'd planned that but because he was prepared to, whatever stood in the way of his escape.

Didn't we learn that BK ran his vacuum at all hours? Wouldn't surprise me if he was uber meticulous about cleanliness but I wonder more what he might have been doing that the vacuum might have drowned out. IMO he was practicing his lethal fencing moves somewhere.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

If he used a kbar style knife, then that is far less likely, because of the design of the hilt. The crossbar is specifically designed to prevent slippage, as is the texture on the handle. It's a tool for killing, and has the mechanics of that in mind in its design.

MOO

No doubt. But, I'll wait for trial evidence about DNA. Just sayin. moo

Hi A, that is usually true, but the KBAR knife specifically has a guard around the handle to keep your hand from slipping down towards the blade. 2-3 quick, well placed blows could have killed all of them.

BK also worked at a fish market for a short time according to his job application for Pullman (?) PD, so between having the practice of using of knives and the upper arm strength from boxing, I think he could have done this easily in 4-7 minutes.

JMO

 

[Balthazar]

All MOO

What did everyone think about AT saying the DNA profile being 'twice as big' when it went from the Orthram lab to the FBI?

How did the DNA profile double in size? Is that normal?


All MOO

Clearly not normal. JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

Clearly not normal. JMO.

HUH? Can you explain how it's not normal?

I don't think it's clear what his attorney was referring to, but whatever specifically is done in the process, it lead to Kohberger. We know this for a fact. A swab after his arrest was a match to the sheath DNA.

Discredit the process all you want. Hell, throw it out altogether (it's not even going to be presented at trial, apparently).

His DNA is a match, however they got to him as a suspect.

 

[Balthazar]

All MOO

If the original sample lead straight to BK then why did they need Othram to also test it? Then after two labs found nothing why did the FBI then have to pull BK's DNA from a database to make the match.

Something's off imo and that is why AT keeps asking for the chain of custody imo with all the DNA and wants to see how they came to that conclusion.

I believe AT has now asked for discovery of this around 22-23 times and still has not received it.

All MOO

All MOO.

IMO, it must have been a partial DNA sample - especially if it was on the button on the sheath which is made of brass which contains 60% copper which degrades DNA on contact. The problem with touch DNA is that it has a high rate of false positives due to contamination.

Touch DNA

Free Consultation - Call 800-401-1583 - Philip D. Cave is dedicated to serving our clients with a range of legal services including Military Law and Court-Martial cases. Touch DNA - US Military Law Lawyer

www.court-martial.com

JMO. From what I understand the DNA was not originally found when the sheath was examined, then in a second examination ISL found the DNA, and ran it through CODIS but didn't get a hit. The person might not have been in CODIS, the sample could be contaminated and therefore, no match was possible or it was degraded and therefore, again, no match was possible. At any rate ISL didn't get a name from CODIS. JMO.

IMO. So the thought was to use IGG to reverse into an identification of the family of the killer and then find the killer's name from the family group. IGG usually leads to thousands of people and then they have to wade through all of these people to find people who could be suspects. This usually results in a pool of suspects, each which must be looked at in great detail. A lot of this process is research and the opinion of the researcher as to whether each suspect could be a fit. For example, they exclude people who were too young to have committed the crime. Sometimes, the IGG researcher is lucky and the name of the suspect turns out to be someone LE was looking at back at the beginning of the case. Sometimes there needs to be a deep dive into multiple suspects. In a current criminal case like this, this has never been done before. It has been done in historic cold cases with some success and used to identify the remains of Jane Doe's and John Doe's. However, based on what AT said at the hearing, Othram was not able to do anything with the DNA. There has to be a reason for that. And I think the most likely reason is that the DNA was degraded or contaminated. Othram's IGG process usually takes 6 weeks or more. But after 1 week, the FBI took the DNA from Othram and somehow came up with an IGG AND a suspect in 1 week. Suspicious? I would say so. JMO.

BK had sent his DNA into a database for ancestry research purposes...

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

...and apparently opted out of LE using his DNA. According to what AT said at the hearing last week, BK's name came up via the FBI going into databases they should not have been going into and violating their own policy and not keeping records, behind the scenes and in secret. Prior to that time MPD Detectives had never heard the name BK.

Above comments are made at around 1:23 in the video
JMO

The problem with all of this is that if the DNA was degraded and/or contaminated, then it could easily point to the wrong suspect. And IMO, that may be what has happened in this case.

All JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

At the last hearing, the defense talked about unidentified DNA found at the scene, no doubt in an effort to influence the public. It worked in some parts, making it appear that law enforcement simply ignored this DNA, and made no effort to chase it down.

This is from an older hearing, where his attorney again tried to misrepresent this evidence. It reminds me of Barry Morphew's lawyer, who even to this day lies about the DNA evidence in that case (going as far as to say it belongs to a sex offender).

Anne Taylor, Kohberger's lawyer, specifically pointed to three unidentified male DNA samples taken from the murder scene that the defense has not received. Prosecutor Bill Thompson countered, arguing that the defense already possesses everything accessible to the state.
Thompson stated, "All I'm hearing is speculation that they wish there was something there. We can't respond to something that doesn't exist."
Thompson concluded that the three samples in question were not uploaded to a Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) database due to ineligibility. He claimed that defense attorney Anne Taylor was informed of this by the lab.

Bryan Kohberger's defense, state quarrel over DNA evidence

The judge stated that he saw no failure to disclose evidence on the part of the prosecution and the trial will go forward in October.

www.krem.com

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO.

IMO, it must have been a partial DNA sample - especially if it was on the button on the sheath which is made of brass which contains 60% copper which degrades DNA on contact. The problem with touch DNA is that it has a high rate of false positives due to contamination.

Touch DNA

Free Consultation - Call 800-401-1583 - Philip D. Cave is dedicated to serving our clients with a range of legal services including Military Law and Court-Martial cases. Touch DNA - US Military Law Lawyer

www.court-martial.com

JMO. From what I understand the DNA was not originally found when the sheath was examined, then in a second examination ISL found the DNA, and ran it through CODIS but didn't get a hit. The person might not have been in CODIS, the sample could be contaminated and therefore, no match was possible or it was degraded and therefore, again, no match was possible. At any rate ISL didn't get a name from CODIS. JMO.

IMO. So the thought was to use IGG to reverse into and identification of the family of the killer and then find the killer's name from the family group. IGG usually leads to thousands of people and then they have to wade through all of these people to find people who could be suspects. This usually results in a pool of suspects, each which must be looked at in great detail. A lot of this process is research and the opinion of the researcher as to whether each suspect could be a fit. For example, they exclude people who were too young to have committed the crime. Sometimes, the IGG researcher is lucky and the name of the suspect turns out to be someone LE was looking at back at the beginning of the case. Sometimes there needs to be a deep dive into multiple suspects. In a current criminal case like this, this has never been done before. It has been done in historic cold cases with some success and used to identify the remains of Jane Doe's and John Doe's. However, based on what AT said at the hearing, Othram was not able to do anything with the DNA. There has to be a reason for that. And I think the most likely reason is that the DNA was degraded or contaminated. Othram's IGG process usually takes 6 weeks or more. But after 1 week, the FBI took the DNA from Othram and somehow came up with an IGG AND a suspect in 1 week. Suspicious? I would say so. JMO.

BK had sent his DNA into a database for ancestry research purposes...

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

...and apparently opted out of LE using his DNA. According to what AT said at the hearing last week, BK's name came up via the FBI going into databases they should not have been going into and violating their own policy and not keeping records, behind the scenes and in secret. Prior to that time MPD Detectives had never heard the name BK.

Above comments are made at around 1:23 in the video
JMO

The problem with all of this is that if the DNA was degraded and/or contaminated, then it could easily point to the wrong suspect. And IMO, that may be what has happened in this case.

All JMO.

This is simply not true. We know for a fact this was a complete profile, from a single source (not mixed). It does not get much better than 5.37 octillion to one. Please stop saying it's partial, it is not in dispute.

The only degraded DNA found at the scene is the samples the defense is pointing to as being from some alternate suspect. They could not even be loaded into CODIS as a result, and could never be matched to a specific person if they could.

We know the sample was complete. We know IGG was used. We know IGG led them to Kohberger. We know that Kohberger was a perfect match to the sheath DNA.

Say someone is suspicious about the IGG for some reason. Cool.

One thing matters: BK is an indisputable match to the sheath DNA.

 

[Cool Cats]

This is simply not true. We know for a fact this was a complete profile, from a single source (not mixed). It does not get much better than 5.37 octillion to one. Please stop saying it's partial, it is not in dispute.

The only degraded DNA found at the scene is the samples the defense is pointing to as being from some alternate suspect. They could not even be loaded into CODIS as a result, and could never be matched to a specific person if they could.

We know the sample was complete. We know IGG was used. We know IGG led them to Kohberger. We know that Kohberger was a perfect match to the sheath DNA.

Say someone is suspicious about the IGG for some reason. Cool.

One thing matters: BK is an indisputable match to the sheath DNA.

Correct.

Police were investigating many various possible suspects. Many of them provided DNA," Logsdon writes. "At least one had his DNA surreptitiously taken from discarded cigarette. Many also had their phones taken and downloaded."

Through the first two weeks of December, investigators put some of their focus on classmates of the victims; they also widened the search to examine a man in another state who had been known to send harassing messages to women but had visited Idaho only twice in his life. They looked at a woman previously charged with assaults in the region. They looked at a man once accused of wielding a knife. They looked at sex offenders. They looked at a white supremacist. Each turned out to be a dead end.
The DNA on the snap shows beyond a resonable doubt - 5.37 octillion times - that BK touched the snap. The snap DNA matches BK's cheek DNA.

Eileen Holliday and Angenette Levy July 23rd, 2023, 9:57 am
The Law&Crime Network’s Angenette Levy spoke with DNA expert Kristen Slaper about the defense strategy.

 

[Balthazar]

This is simply not true. We know for a fact this was a complete profile, from a single source (not mixed). It does not get much better than 5.37 octillion to one. Please stop saying it's partial, it is not in dispute.

The only degraded DNA found at the scene is the samples the defense is pointing to as being from some alternate suspect. They could not even be loaded into CODIS as a result, and could never be matched to a specific person if they could.

We know the sample was complete. We know IGG was used. We know IGG led them to Kohberger. We know that Kohberger was a perfect match to the sheath DNA.

Say someone is suspicious about the IGG for some reason. Cool.

One thing matters: BK is an indisputable match to the sheath DNA.

If this was a complete sample, please show me a link from MSM that says that. (BTW, you forgot to add JMO to your post, you may want to fix that.)

According to the last hearing and what AT said at 1:23 in the video,
IGG was NOT done at Othram and could not have been done at the FBI in 1 week - hence no documentation and no name of an FBI agent who did the IGG - all against FBI policy. Instead, the FBI apparently got into the private side of the DNA database BK put his DNA into. At least this is what AT is alleging. And what are we to think? It takes Othram 6 weeks to do IGG. They are considered one of the best labs in the world for this. No way could the FBI do IGG in 1 week and there is absolutely no proof that the FBI ever did IGG at all. There is no documentation and no name of who did it. So unless the prosecution can suddenly come up with discovery proving that the FBI actually did do IGG, then, IMO, it didn't happen and AT has "hit it out of the ballpark" in discovering all of this.

All JMO.

All JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

I believe at trial we will find out his DNA was all over the place. When someone is using a knife in an attack it's very common as you stab and you get blood on your hand for that hand to slip down the knife and you cut yourself. So its my opinion you dont walk out of a crime scene w/o leaving your DNA. moo

This was a special military grade knife with a handle specifically made to keep your hand from sliding down to the blade.

BUT

It takes practice and BK was not in the military or even in a military reserve unit or even hired by the police.

So you could be correct that BK had blood on - not his hands - but on his gloves.

2 Cents

 

[Balthazar]

Correct.

Police were investigating many various possible suspects. Many of them provided DNA," Logsdon writes. "At least one had his DNA surreptitiously taken from discarded cigarette. Many also had their phones taken and downloaded."

Through the first two weeks of December, investigators put some of their focus on classmates of the victims; they also widened the search to examine a man in another state who had been known to send harassing messages to women but had visited Idaho only twice in his life. They looked at a woman previously charged with assaults in the region. They looked at a man once accused of wielding a knife. They looked at sex offenders. They looked at a white supremacist. Each turned out to be a dead end.
The DNA on the snap shows beyond a resonable doubt - 5.37 octillion times - that BK touched the snap. The snap DNA matches BK's cheek DNA.

Eileen Holliday and Angenette Levy July 23rd, 2023, 9:57 am
The Law&Crime Network’s Angenette Levy spoke with DNA expert Kristen Slaper about the defense strategy.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in this article that says it was a complete DNA profile. Nothing.

All JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in this article that says it was a complete DNA profile. Nothing.

All JMO.

I see nothing that says BK's DNA was only discovered as flawed partial DNA

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/bryan-kohberger-dna-match-idaho-killings-evidence/index.html

Bryan Kohberger's DNA matches evidence found at Idaho murder scene: Court docs

DNA collected from Bryan Kohberger is a match for evidence found at the Moscow, Idaho, crime scene where four University of Idaho students were murdered.

abcnews.go.com

DNA collected from suspect Bryan Kohberger a ‘statistical match’ for DNA on sheath of knife used in killings of 4 Idaho students, court documents state

 

[MassGuy]

If this was a complete sample, please show me a link from MSM that says that. (BTW, you forgot to add JMO to your post, you may want to fix that.)

According to the last hearing and what AT said at 1:23 in the video,
IGG was NOT done at Othram and could not have been done at the FBI in 1 week - hence no documentation and no name of an FBI agent who did the IGG - all against FBI policy. Instead, the FBI apparently got into the private side of the DNA database BK put his DNA into. At least this is what AT is alleging. And what are we to think? It takes Othram 6 weeks to do IGG. They are considered one of the best labs in the world for this. No way could the FBI do IGG in 1 week and there is absolutely no proof that the FBI ever did IGG at all. There is no documentation and no name of who did it. So unless the prosecution can suddenly come up with discovery proving that the FBI actually did do IGG, then, IMO, it didn't happen and AT has "hit it out of the ballpark" in discovering all of this.

All JMO.

All JMO.

Lol, I don't need MSM to tell me that 5 octillion to one is a complete profile; the number itself is self proving. That's not thousands or millions to one like we hear in cases with partial profiles.

My guess is that the FBI was trying to expedite the process, and perhaps Othram would have run the risk of a lawsuit if they violated those companies' TOS.

So let me get this straight;

Everyone is lying.
Everyone is putting their careers in jeopardy.
The defense, who has unquestionably misrepresented evidence on numerous occasions, is telling the truth here.

And how the hell does this change the fact that BK's DNA is on the sheath?

Here’s what chat GTP has to say:

It is extremely unlikely that a 5 octillion to one (1 in 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) DNA match came from a partial profile.

A match with odds this high almost always comes from a full DNA profile, typically analyzing 20+ loci. A partial profile has fewer loci, making it much less statistically powerful. Even a strong partial profile might only reach match probabilities in the millions or billions to one range, not octillions.

For forensic DNA statistics to reach octillion-level certainty, the profile must be highly complete, meaning it includes enough unique genetic markers to make the odds of a coincidental match virtually zero.

 

[Cool Cats]

Lol, I don't need MSM to tell me that 5 octillion to one is a complete profile; the number itself is self proving. That's not thousands or millions to one like we hear in cases with partial profiles.

My guess is that the FBI was trying to expedite the process, and perhaps Othram would have run the risk of a lawsuit if they violated those companies' TOS.

So let me get this straight;

Everyone is lying.
Everyone is putting their careers in jeopardy.
The defense, who has unquestionably misrepresented evidence on numerous occasions, is telling the truth here.

And how the hell does this change the fact that BK's DNA is on the sheath?

By 2005 strict protocols were put into place so innocent defendants were not put to death.

........One such objective is a mandate that by 2005 any person sitting on death row should be given DNA testing when there is DNA evidence available from the case and was not introduced at trial. Other mandated objectives are that by 2005 Legal Resource Centers will be re-established so qualified lawyers can handle death penalty cases and postconviction DNA testing; by 2005 all labs must be regulated by Federal guidelines to ensure that DNA evidence is intact and uncontaminated for preconviction and postconviction hearings; by 2005 DNA testing costs be deferred to the State if the inmate is indigent; by 2005 DNA could also lend the evidence to the guilty party and ensure that justice is done; and by 2005 all law enforcement agencies should have proper storage for the preservation of DNA evidence that can guarantee the safe delivery for trial or for a person who has already been convicted and is sitting on death row. 27 references and appended data tables.....

Capital Punishment and DNA Testing, Final Product | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[Balthazar]

I see nothing that says BK's DNA was only discovered as flawed partial DNA

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/21/us/bryan-kohberger-dna-match-idaho-killings-evidence/index.html

Bryan Kohberger's DNA matches evidence found at Idaho murder scene: Court docs

DNA collected from Bryan Kohberger is a match for evidence found at the Moscow, Idaho, crime scene where four University of Idaho students were murdered.

abcnews.go.com

DNA collected from suspect Bryan Kohberger a ‘statistical match’ for DNA on sheath of knife used in killings of 4 Idaho students, court documents state

None of the articles I've seen ever say it is complete and none say it was partial. IMO the reason for that is likely because it was partial. IF it was on the brass snap as many here claim, there is absolutely no chance it was anything other than a degraded sample having sat on the brass snap for many days after the sheath was found - remember ISL didn't even look at the sheath until 4 or 5 days after the murders.

All, JMO.