4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #721
All indications are that DNA only provided partial profiles, which weren't even eligible to be uploaded to CODIS. That means you're never going to be able to link a single person to those samples. Again, they knew they had the killer's DNA on that sheath.

Hypothetically, even if those samples were of a quality to allow for that type of testing, you're talking about finite resources here. I have never, not once, encountered a case where law enforcement sent off more than one sample for IGG. That would expand the investigation to an insane scope, and only serve to muddy the waters.

These guys always work alone, and all indications are that Kohberger did. In some alternate universe where he did have accomplices, that would have been discovered by now. The only use for that DNA would be for exclusionary purposes.

We only have the defense side of this right now, but there's no way this stuff was ignored, especially early on when their focus was inside that house, and those who had been inside that house.
The desperation from AT & Co regarding the MTS on DNA and phone records during the 2 day hearing was palpable enough to be felt by me across the country. I don't believe it has a snowball's chance of being granted. BK's DNA was left at the scene (in the bed of a victim) of a vicious quadruple murder, it's coming in.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

EBM: Added a word for clarity
 
Last edited:
  • #722
This is what ChatGTP has to say:

You're on the right track! The number 20 is indeed associated with the standard set of alleles used for CODIS (Combined DNA Index System) comparisons. CODIS is a national database in the United States used to store DNA profiles, and the FBI uses a specific set of genetic markers, or loci, to ensure the profiles are comparable.

As of now, the CODIS Core Loci consists of 20 specific short tandem repeat (STR) loci that are commonly analyzed for DNA matching. These 20 loci are chosen because they are highly variable among individuals, making them useful for identification and comparison. This set of markers includes the following 13 core loci required by the FBI and 7 additional ones for a higher level of confidence:

  1. D3S1358
  2. TH01
  3. D21S11
  4. D18S51
  5. Penta E
  6. Penta D
  7. D16S539
  8. CSF1PO
  9. DPY19S1
  10. D2S1338
  11. D19S433
  12. vWA
  13. TPOX
  14. D5S818
  15. D13S317
  16. D7S820
  17. D8S1179
  18. FGA
  19. D12S391
  20. D17S1301
These markers are chosen because they are highly polymorphic (meaning they have many different forms), which makes them effective in distinguishing one person from another. In forensic DNA analysis, a match is made by comparing the alleles (the different forms of each marker) between the suspect’s DNA and a reference sample from the crime scene.

So, to clarify, the number 20 is indeed significant in the context of CODIS, and it is standard in DNA labs to analyze these loci to provide reliable, consistent, and valid DNA profile comparisons. This is written in the FBI’s guidelines and lab procedures for forensic DNA analysis.
Hah! You beauty! (Aust idiom). I had this feeling you know from skim reading I guess. Thanks a lot for doing the work!

ETA ah 'core loci' that was it.
 
  • #723
  • #724
Seriously, this judge is a hoot, but at the same time very on top of the issues. Just straight forward and hides less than most people. I like him.
I’ve not followed this as closely as others but when I watched the H4H where AT was arguing privacy for DNA found at CS & he explained so calmly that (my paraphrase) it was the foundation for probable cause, I had immediate respect for him. When he followed with "…everyday & twice on Sunday," he immediately moved to legend status as far as I was concerned.
 
  • #725
I find it unusual, but telling that the Mental Health records of the entire K family were requested and granted. Sounds like preparing for mitigating factors to me.

I'd love to know what BK's family knows, I think it's A LOT. Rule 404(b) has my hinky meter tagged in the red zone. Maybe that's why the poor BK's Dad was always trouble shooting for a grown 28 yo man. We aren't talking about a late teen-mid early 20 yo here. Failure to launch is an understatement IMO.

BK's excursion to WSU was his first attempt at living solo IIRC. How'd that work out? Miserably, and brutally for 4 beautiful, successful and happy College students.

JMO
 
Last edited:
  • #726
  • #727
This is what ChatGTP has to say:

You're on the right track! The number 20 is indeed associated with the standard set of alleles used for CODIS (Combined DNA Index System) comparisons. CODIS is a national database in the United States used to store DNA profiles, and the FBI uses a specific set of genetic markers, or loci, to ensure the profiles are comparable.

As of now, the CODIS Core Loci consists of 20 specific short tandem repeat (STR) loci that are commonly analyzed for DNA matching. These 20 loci are chosen because they are highly variable among individuals, making them useful for identification and comparison. This set of markers includes the following 13 core loci required by the FBI and 7 additional ones for a higher level of confidence:

  1. D3S1358
  2. TH01
  3. D21S11
  4. D18S51
  5. Penta E
  6. Penta D
  7. D16S539
  8. CSF1PO
  9. DPY19S1
  10. D2S1338
  11. D19S433
  12. vWA
  13. TPOX
  14. D5S818
  15. D13S317
  16. D7S820
  17. D8S1179
  18. FGA
  19. D12S391
  20. D17S1301
These markers are chosen because they are highly polymorphic (meaning they have many different forms), which makes them effective in distinguishing one person from another. In forensic DNA analysis, a match is made by comparing the alleles (the different forms of each marker) between the suspect’s DNA and a reference sample from the crime scene.

So, to clarify, the number 20 is indeed significant in the context of CODIS, and it is standard in DNA labs to analyze these loci to provide reliable, consistent, and valid DNA profile comparisons. This is written in the FBI’s guidelines and lab procedures for forensic DNA analysis.
May be some speculation worthy material in regard to origins of "8 to 20 cells" which has popped up unsourced here recently, since the Jan hearings. I don't think Blum is the source of the new number. '8 core loci' is now ringing a bell. I'll check it out.
 
  • #728
That IS funny.
But to be totally fair, he had the same mannerisms while Ashley Jennings was speaking.
He's not putting up with any BS from either side, and I love that.
I think he did! Guessing but this was not limited to AT, he was like this through much of the hearing. Jmo

ETA not forgetting they had all just been through the closed igg hearing. It may have been mind numbingly tedious for all we know with lunch break insufficient for recovery :)
 
  • #729
Speaking of IGG, tonight's 48 Hours was an episode on another cold case that Cece Moore solved using IGG. When they matched the suspect's DNA (he committed suicide after interrogation), it was 100% match. So IGG and Touch DNA are rapidly becoming the gold-standard in solving murders and rapes, especially in cold cases. They gave a really good explanation of the IGG in the episode.
 
  • #730
I think he did! Guessing but this was not limited to AT, he was like this through much if the hearing. Jmo
I agree it wasn't limited to AT and EM, but it sure came down more frequently on the Defense rather than the State. I think Judge Hippler didn't appreciate the fumbling word salad (and unbearable paper shuffling) the D was spinning.

At least the State was direct and to the point.

IMO
 
  • #731
Speaking of IGG, tonight's 48 Hours was an episode on another cold case that Cece Moore solved using IGG. When they matched the suspect's DNA (he committed suicide after interrogation), it was 100% match. So IGG and Touch DNA are rapidly becoming the gold-standard in solving murders and rapes, especially in cold cases. They gave a really good explanation of the IGG in the episode.
Yes, I really like Cece Moore, she has brought a lot of attention and helped solved many cases with GG. I think it started as a personal hobby of hers helping people find their birth parents, but now she is considered one of the top in her field.

<snipped>

She is the Chief Genetic Genealogist for Parabon Nanolabs, heading their Genetic Genealogy Services for law enforcement unit, boasting the unparalleled record of over 200 successful identifications of violent criminals in the two years since the unit’s launch.

CeCe Moore – The DNA Detective
 
  • #732
I agree it wasn't limited to AT and EM, but it sure came down more frequently on the Defense rather than the State. I think Judge Hippler didn't appreciate the fumbling word salad (and unbearable paper shuffling) the D was spinning.

At least the State was direct and to the point.

IMO
Yea, agree I think he was definately showing signs of being over it. But trying to be fair, it had probably been a long day on top of everything else.

Come trial, guessing he'll be less 'relaxed' lol in body language in presence of jury!
 
  • #733
IMO You can’t simultaneously champion DNA laws getting stricter to protect one’s privacy and then characterize anything short of a wild familial goose chase as an indictment on LE.

Plus, in order to accept your narrative or your proposal you have to buy what AT is selling. That LE relied solely on the IGG to initially identify Kohlberger. Or that the DNA on some random glove outside (thanks OJ) is just as important as the DNA on the sheath under a victims body.

I’m not buying it.

MOO

I do not necessarily buy what AT is selling. But, I have my own opinion and set of questions.

In my list of potential suspects way before BK was arrested, I had 1) “people cross-targeting two floors for one reason” (XK/MM), or 2) “people targeting one floor - XK/EC and removing unlucky witnesses on the other floor.”

TBH, when I saw BK being arrested I was surprised that one person could take out four able-bodied people. However, I was not too surprised that the suspect would look like BK. My very first thought was, “it is likely him.” This being said, JMO, BK resembles a “trail killer” type. For such a man to hunt South of Pullman, in the reservation area, chasing single women at night, would be more typical. JMO, MOO, i don’t specialize in serial killers, but if i met this man alone in the woods, I’d be scared. For the same type to break into a party house and take out four people, leaving a mess of blood, a dab of touch DNA, and nothing else? I am still surprised. I am honestly perplexed that he’d break into a full house, to start with. But, who knows, no one can predict human behavior, so it can be him.

However, given the fact that I followed the case from day one (had to - it is a neighboring state, after all), I want to be sure that all other suspects and possibilities have been cleared/ruled out. Mostly, because if not, some killer might be still living in ID or WA.
So questions about other male DNAs have to be answered.

Maybe there are unbeatable pieces of evidence tying BK up to the case. Hopefully it will pop up during the trial. I am watching it, but I think, usually solid evidence makes it into PCA?

About DNA laws - I personally think each such breakthrough will be a “single case”, with no future possibility to use this very commmercial company. So instead of these single “hits”, maybe the time has come to invest more in CODIS? How much does it cost now to process DNA at a good level? Essentially, very little.
 
Last edited:
  • #734
From the filings by the defense, it is clear that the DNA other than Kohberger's were partial profiles, that were thus unable to be uploaded to CODIS (not enough genetic material).

Old, degraded DNA samples, won't be a problem here.
ICBW and in process of looking for source but Jmo codis eligibility criteria require identification of at least eight (8) core loci to be eligible for upload. Jmo and only from memory.
 
  • #735
That IS funny.
But to be totally fair, he had the same mannerisms while Ashley Jennings was speaking.
He's not putting up with any BS from either side, and I love that.
Yeah, he did. It just fit the scenario with AT at that time so well - those pics were literally from the exact time AT was pleading her DNA/probable cause point. True, his body language does seem disengaged at times regardless of who is speaking. He seems like a fair & down to earth judge despite his magisterial "vogueing". :D
 
  • #736
Been thinking about the whole touch DNA boogey man and how touch or epithelial DNA is an umbrella term which casts a wide net. So imo each individual case's DNA evidence will locate somewhere more specific under the umbrella.

From docs in this case we know sheathe button DNA was plentiful enough for lab to develop a full str single source profile. It met the requirements for Codis, no match was found. Then there was enough sample for Othram to develop and then upload the separate snp profile for IGG purposes. The same SNP that was later transfered to FBI for upload to various IGG companies. Moo

So this is just my speculation or question really;

maybe there was more of BK's epithelial cells on that snap button than we tend to imagine? Enough for independent development of x2 separate profiles. I know the tech can do it with very small amounts, but why are some of us assuming there was only a "smidge"? Moo

There's been no LE or court filings saying anything at all about the number of cells. We do have a book by Howard Blum that has asserted twenty cells as posted many times on here ( not "8" or '11"cells Afaik). But imo Blum cannot be relied upon and his assertions can't be taken as fact, at face level. Jmo

The more I think about that number - 20 cells - the more I speculate he probably got this from uninformed, second or even third hand LE sources. Imo there is no way he got it from the lab. Jmo

Here's my question for the dna science informed; IIUC, is the number of alleles ? needed for full codis match comparison, is that number actually twenty (20,)? Is this written in standard DNA lab procedures? Idk, this level of the science is beyond me, but the number twenty (20) and the words 'alleles' and Codis are associated in my mind for some reason. Maybe someone who knows about this level of detail can confirm, or not. Moo

So, is it possible Blum's source, Blum himself or more likely a combination of both, were misinformed. Say Blum's source told him about the 20 allele thingy thinking it meant a cell number. Just an idea.

Anyway, imo there may have been more DNA on that button than is generally assumed. I think BK left it there when he opened and closed it with his ungloved hands sometime, but not long before, the murders. He may have cleaned the sheath and missed that spot, but Imo leaving it behind was not something BK ever imagined could happen. So he may not have been as super careful with opening and closing it as we think. Jmo

Great post.

Trying to construct complex theories based on speculation from sources or hints from AT can be a complete waste of time as illustrated in many cases we have all followed.
 
  • #737
IMO You can’t simultaneously champion DNA laws getting stricter to protect one’s privacy and then characterize anything short of a wild familial goose chase as an indictment on LE.

Plus, in order to accept your narrative or your proposal you have to buy what AT is selling. That LE relied solely on the IGG to initially identify Kohlberger. Or that the DNA on some random glove outside (thanks OJ) is just as important as the DNA on the sheath under a victims body.

I’m not buying it.

MOO

To which I'd add, future regulation about commercial use of these databases has zero to do with the criminal law as it stands today.
 
  • #738
ICBW and in process of looking for source but Jmo codis eligibility criteria require identification of at least eight (8) core loci to be eligible for upload. Jmo and only from memory.
Replying to self with what I found.


"What are the minimum loci requirements for the STR DNA data submitted to NDIS?​

The minimum CODIS Core Loci required for submission of DNA data to NDIS vary by specimen category..."


"All CODIS Core Loci must be attempted for other specimen categories with the following limited exceptions:

  • For forensic DNA profiles, all CODIS Core Loci must be attempted but at least 8 of the original CODIS Core Loci combined with a match rarity of at least one in ten million are required for submission to and searching at NDIS."
 
  • #739
That's not how IGG works. They aren't testing the actual DNA, they are using family trees to identify a suspect. When they think they have a match, they obtain an actual DNA sample from the suspect to corroborate with the DNA found at the crime scene. It's extremely accurate.

They have to have DNA to build up family trees. Essentially, any “DNA in genealogy databases” we are discussing is not live “DNA”. Databases contain codes, letters. A single gene in a DNA sequence is theoretically responsible for the synthesis of one protein. So if you write down this gene sequence, you have “the recipe” for the protein. Your DNA in a database is just tons of codes how to make your proteins and finally, you.

So in commercial DNA companies, they merely keep “information” about your DNA.

But IGG involves comparison of the DNA profile left at the crime space with DNA profiles contained in genetic databases, be it CODIS, Gedmatch or whatever they use. At that state, they don’t yet use the family tree - they try to identify closest matches to the suspect’s DNA in the system. And then, having identified one or two, depending on the degree of closeness, they may proceed building up family trees, or using existing ones, to see where they cross (Commmon Ancestors), and then go down to look at any possible descendants of these CA that could be suspects. But of course, if they find “suspect’s DNA at the level of the father”, in the database, it becomes easier (to look at the children and compare the alibis.)

It is an interesting way to do things. I see lots of missteps (I attached Gedcoms to my DNAs in Gedmatch, but having done more ancestry, I found out that they are imprecise. God knows when I shall change them, I owe nothing to anyone, so LE may be relying on imprecise information, and I think many people have mistakes in their Gedcoms.)

Most of all, LE has to understand that psychologically, people make trees because they feel that they, humans, are unique. They are looking for their equally unique genetic relatives, to share photos and unite trees. Everything else is sheer courtesy.
 
  • #740
It has occurred to me that in all this complicated case history and science, we have seriously overlooked BK's mother. We know a little about his father, and have extended our sympathy, even appreciation to him. We know a little bit about his sisters, whether it's one or both. But his mother? Nothing, zilch, nada. And yet she is probably heartbroken. What mother wouldn't be? Poor lady.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
71
Guests online
2,413
Total visitors
2,484

Forum statistics

Threads
633,223
Messages
18,638,176
Members
243,452
Latest member
odettee
Back
Top