CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

[su5ie]

Holy mackerel. Maybe the search area should’ve been expanded. This missing five year old was found three miles away within an hour after he disappeared. Three miles an hour is considered as a brisk pace for adults. How much of a head start did Jack and Lilly have?

Missing 5-year-old boy with autism found thanks to wearable tracking device

Due to the help of ‘Project Lifesaver, ’ teams were able to track the radio frequency of the child’s wristband and locate the boy three miles away.

www.northernnewsnow.com

This is another recent story of a two-year old that was also found three miles away, accompanied by her two dogs.

A toddler who went missing likely walked 3 miles barefoot with her family's 2 dogs before she was eventually found napping with them, police say

Jeremy Hauswirth of the Michigan State Police Iron Mountain Post said the girl likely walked alongside her family's rottweiler and cocker spaniel.

www.businessinsider.com

According to Google a 4 to 6 year old can walk 3 to 4 km per hour depending on terrain. Prehaps this is why the search area was 4km but realistically the kids could have been walking 3km ahead of the search area as each hour past if they had a one hour head start

 

[MistyWaters]

According to Google a 4 to 6 year old can walk 3 to 4 km per hour depending on terrain. Prehaps this is why the search area was 4km but realistically the kids could have been walking 3km ahead of the search area as each hour past if they had a one hour head start

The reports of the children found three miles isn’t the same as three km. For the sake of clarity between imperial and metric systems 1 mile =1.609 kilometers. So a search area of 4km = 2.485 miles. So yes, a one hour head start could indicate the searchers and family members were well behind the children.

 

[thor124]

According to Google a 4 to 6 year old can walk 3 to 4 km per hour depending on terrain. Prehaps this is why the search area was 4km but realistically the kids could have been walking 3km ahead of the search area as each hour past if they had a one hour head start

I imagine that 3-4kph speeds are on flat, paved, terrain. Not rugged forest or trail. When my kids were similar ages the nice paved trails I could do 3-4km round trips in an hour. Similar trips in hilly forested areas would be 2-3 hours(the kids slept great after those hikes).

 

[Bigditch]

Holy mackerel. Maybe the search area should’ve been expanded. This missing five year old was found three miles away within an hour after he disappeared. Three miles an hour is considered as a brisk pace for adults. How much of a head start did Jack and Lilly have?

Missing 5-year-old boy with autism found thanks to wearable tracking device

Due to the help of ‘Project Lifesaver, ’ teams were able to track the radio frequency of the child’s wristband and locate the boy three miles away.

www.northernnewsnow.com

This is another recent story of a two-year old that was also found three miles away, accompanied by her two dogs.

A toddler who went missing likely walked 3 miles barefoot with her family's 2 dogs before she was eventually found napping with them, police say

Jeremy Hauswirth of the Michigan State Police Iron Mountain Post said the girl likely walked alongside her family's rottweiler and cocker spaniel.

www.businessinsider.com

Great outcome, cool sounding device. I didn't get that the boy was found within an hour. He was however 3 miles away when found. (Maybe I missed it)

Second story the girl is found 3 miles away, 4 hours later.

Add on, the news anchor says the boy was found with the help of a human trafficking team! Just a slight gaffe.

 

[Bigditch]

According to Google a 4 to 6 year old can walk 3 to 4 km per hour depending on terrain. Prehaps this is why the search area was 4km but realistically the kids could have been walking 3km ahead of the search area as each hour past if they had a one hour head start

I sure and heck could not walk that far at four, five, and probably six, I'd need a nap!

 

[MistyWaters]

Great outcome, cool sounding device. I didn't get that the boy was found within an hour. He was however 3 miles away when found. (Maybe I missed it)

Second story the girl is found 3 miles away, 4 hours later.

Add on, the news anchor says the boy was found with the help of a human trafficking team! Just a slight gaffe.

This link, what a wonderful program for individuals especially children who are deemed at-risk of wandering.

Pine County Sheriff’s Office locates missing five-year-old boy using Project Lifesaver and other search efforts

A five-year-old boy who went missing on Friday, Sept. 26 in a wooded area in Sturgeon Lake has now been found safe due to the efforts of the Pine County

www.pinecountynews.com

At 4:21 p.m., deputies with Project Lifesaver equipment arrived on the scene. The boy was enrolled in the Project Lifesaver program which provides at-risk individuals with a wearable tracking device that enables rapid location in cases of elopement or wandering.

Just 20 minutes later, at 4:41 p.m., thanks to the efforts of all personnel and the tracking signal from the Project Lifesaver device, deputies successfully located the child traveling approximately three miles away from where he went missing. He was found wet and muddy but was safe and alert.

 

[MistyWaters]

I still wonder if any consideration that the children might be autistic was applied in the initial search? If so, it could’ve proven the difference between a successful rescue or heartbreaking failure. And we do know which of the two was the outcome

Autism & Wandering

Children with autism go missing under a variety of circumstances. They may seek out small or enclosed spaces. They may wander toward places of special interest to them. Or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings or activities of others.

www.missingkids.org

According to data published by the American Academy of Pediatrics, nearly half of children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) go missing from their environment, with a substantial number at risk for bodily harm or drowning. Children on the autism spectrum may seek out small or enclosed spaces, head toward water or places of special interest to them, or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings, or activities of others.

 

[OneLove]

My 2.5 year old, playing on the shielded patio w/driveway 1/4 mile to the rural road, disappeared in 60-90 seconds after asking me for a drink of water. Poof, just gone, along with his *very* protective well trained Labrador Retriever.

An all out search began IMMEDIATELY, 5 frantic screaming adults, less than 3 minutes after his disappearance. I KNEW he could still hear us if he just wandered into the woods.

About 45 minutes later he was found 3/4 mile away in the middle of a big field with WARNING, BAD BULL signs hanging from the fence.

Asked him why he ran into the woods when i went to get him a drink of water. "Smokey said hey let's take off". Asked him why he didn't answer when we called for him. "Smokey said forget that, let's go have some fun". Asked him why he crossed the main road and went out into the field he KNEW had aggressive bulls. "Smokey said there's a pond in there. Let's go catch some fish". Smokey was a fish diving maniac. I had to believe him. Kid did NOT know there was a pond in that field.

I'm so grateful he lived. I learned to NEVER turn your back, not even for a minute. He's well past grown now and his pets STILL talk to him. Empathy is his calling card. He's done very well in life.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Bbm.
Agreed, this might have been someone known to the family; but I keep thinking back to LE seemingly dismissing an abduction ?
If they didn't wander and if no foul play from within, what is left ?
Imo.

IIRC, LE dismissed an abduction as a probability pretty early on and then reiterated it a few months on and perhaps again more recently, and we don't know their reasons, or of course, all of the details that have led them to have that as a conclusion they shared publicly.

In which case, IMO, all the possibilities they are considering, because they must do so, when nothing has risen to the fore as the actual reason they think Lilly and Jack disappeared when they were "vulnerable" when they went missing (referencing very early statements by LE included in the Title of this Thread for them), still include an abduction, and their statements on that thus far could change in the blink of an eye if their ongoing investigation day-to-day, week-to-week, and now month-to-month that, in theory, turn up something concrete... and there's the rub, IMO, something concrete.

Also, JMO, LE could have been able to hold firm on their "no indication of an abduction" (paraphrasing) all these months, but that could change, if for example, they run down a lead which indicates they were taken against their will and/or or kept from their guardian. For example, perhaps from within a wider circle than their extended family and within their community, for which LE has no proof of it (an abduction) occurring because they have no evidence to substantiate it.

"Abduction of a young person under sections 280–286 of the Canadian Criminal Code is a serious offence, covering cases where a child is unlawfully taken or kept from their guardian. Penalties are severe, and having strong legal defence is crucial to protect your rights and future.
Generally, to abduct someone in Canada means to take them against someone else’s will. These cases are common in the context of family or domestic disputes (e.g., children being taken by their own parents). Abduction is different from kidnapping whereas abduction means to ‘steal’ the person from another and kidnapping means to ‘steal’ the person generally (see: R v Oakley, 1977 ALTASCAD 118 (CanLII)). Abduction in Canada has more to do with the removal or taking of a child from their parents/guardians whereas kidnapping casts a wider net over offences against the person. How one might be charged with the abduction of a young person will depend on the age of the victim, the relationship the victim has to the offender and the circumstances surrounding the victim’s abduction.

Abduction of a Young Person (s. 280 - 286) Laws in Canada | Strategic Criminal Defence FAQ

Abduction of a young person under sections 280–286 of the Canadian Criminal Code is a serious offence, covering cases where a child is unlawfully taken or kept from their guardian. Penalties are severe, and having strong legal defence is crucial to protect your rights and future.

www.strategiccriminaldefence.com

Therefore, LE saying in the first 6 plus months now after after Lilly and Jack's disappearance that they don't think or have no evidence of an abduction occurring (in accordance with the legal definition of it in Canada excerpted above), doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

JMO

 

[Bigditch]

I keep ruminating on what MistyWaters said about the 2:35 p.m., timeline in the documents pertaining to the events of Thursday, May 1, 2025.

Kid who works at Dollarama I think said he heard Lilly & Jack outside in the car but did not see them. Was the door to the store open? Probably a simple explanation, but thought I'd mention it.

Daniel speaks to a buddy from work in the parking lot. What if while this is happening someone approaches the kids. One of those, I didn't think anything of it at the time moments ...

Could LE be looking for a license plate of a vehicle seen leaving the parking lot at 2:35?

 

[musicaljoke]

I keep ruminating on what MistyWaters said about the 2:35 p.m., timeline in the documents pertaining to the events of Thursday, May 1, 2025.

Kid who works at Dollarama I think said he heard Lilly & Jack outside in the car but did not see them. Was the door to the store open? Probably a simple explanation, but thought I'd mention it.

Daniel speaks to a buddy from work in the parking lot. What if while this is happening someone approaches the kids. One of those, I didn't think anything of it at the time moments ...

Could LE be looking for a license plate of a vehicle seen leaving the parking lot at 2:35?

But don't you think Daniel would have noticed that the kids were missing from the van if they had been kidnapped in the parking lot?

 

[Serononin]

Wow! I'm an 80s Gen X'er/latchkey kid and was babysitting a baby at 13 although I have kids the same age now and no way in heck would I let them be home alone (yet - more because my oldest gets distracted easy and newly on a smart phone so not as attentive) but I try to raise them a bit '80s style' and make them independent like I was as a kid that age with other "responsibilities" hahaha...

It's interesting how things can be relative to geography, income or social demographic.

Jack and Lily while rural, were not extremely isolated, not a high traffic or busy area when compared to the suburbs. Is it safer in rural areas vs inner cities vs towns? Safer to leave kids unattended in a rural area or a busy street or suburbs?

Can kids play alone in their front yard anymore? Jack and Lily were quite young to be in their yard alone but I know people do it. They want their kids to grow up like they did. I feel this can happen anywhere sadly. The little girl in her own driveway and a delivery driver takes her! It's all unfathomable and angering...

Hoping for some answers and hope this doesn't go cold. JMO MOO

*Edited some out after reading Silly Billy's post! Hope the rest of my post is ok.

It definitely depends on the area! I grew up on a classic British street with terraced houses, so I think my parents felt pretty safe leaving us for an hour or so when I was a young teenager, because our neighbours were literally seconds away if anything happened. Perhaps D&M felt similarly about the kids playing in the yard because they knew Janie was so close by?

 

[Serononin]

I tested this using my Pixel 7 Pro a few weeks ago when this first came up. With power saving on it still recorded where I visited in my timeline. Seems power saving modes aren't equal across devices.

Oh that's interesting, the timeline feature doesn't work in power saving mode on my Pixel 8! Although now I think of it, I think I fiddled around with the power saving settings at some point

 

[Serononin]

I still wonder if any consideration that the children might be autistic was applied in the initial search? If so, it could’ve proven the difference between a successful rescue or heartbreaking failure. And we do know which of the two was the outcome

Autism & Wandering

Children with autism go missing under a variety of circumstances. They may seek out small or enclosed spaces. They may wander toward places of special interest to them. Or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings or activities of others.

www.missingkids.org

According to data published by the American Academy of Pediatrics, nearly half of children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) go missing from their environment, with a substantial number at risk for bodily harm or drowning. Children on the autism spectrum may seek out small or enclosed spaces, head toward water or places of special interest to them, or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings, or activities of others.

I definitely wondered about that when I read about the search for Darius McDougall and how that was adapted with his autism in mind

 

[sunspun]

But don't you think Daniel would have noticed that the kids were missing from the van if they had been kidnapped in the parking lot?

Not if that's what they went to that location for in the first place.

 

[su5ie]

I still wonder if any consideration that the children might be autistic was applied in the initial search? If so, it could’ve proven the difference between a successful rescue or heartbreaking failure. And we do know which of the two was the outcome

Autism & Wandering

Children with autism go missing under a variety of circumstances. They may seek out small or enclosed spaces. They may wander toward places of special interest to them. Or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings or activities of others.

www.missingkids.org

According to data published by the American Academy of Pediatrics, nearly half of children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) go missing from their environment, with a substantial number at risk for bodily harm or drowning. Children on the autism spectrum may seek out small or enclosed spaces, head toward water or places of special interest to them, or they may try to escape overwhelming stimuli such as sights, sounds, surroundings, or activities of others.

First and foremost we cannot take as fact the kids were autistic as they had not been assessed so to state they presented with any of the typical traits of autism is speculation .which I note you do say " Might "

But for the sake of conversation and incorporating the reported information that the kids were to be assessed sometime in May.

So if the children were presenting with traits that were typical of ASD . Which among others are , sensory issues , flight / escape risk , co- ordination issues ,learning difficulties, developmental issues and delays , behavioral issues , speech and possible memory issues , toilet training delays , and milestone stages behind that of their peers .

When we factor in all these possible assessment criteria that make up the need for a diagnosis so the child can get help to aid them to function as independently as possible .

You are wondering if searchers who did not know the children's daily needs factored in that the children may have had autism into the search , valid point . Well I'm wondering if the children were presenting with these needs that two people who were aware of their daily needs enabled a situation where the kids needed to be searched for in the first place

 

[Bigditch]

But don't you think Daniel would have noticed that the kids were missing from the van if they had been kidnapped in the parking lot?

Yes, of course Daniel would have noticed the kids missing. What I'm saying is something happened at 2:35 while they were out and about. I'm guessing an interaction, a clue of sorts, not an abduction.

 

[Slebby]

The children were never assessed as having autism. There are a lot of reasons for not keeping up with the other kids in school, autism is not the first reason to consider. It would be interesting to know if any of their teachers suspected autism as well. Teacher are also not necessarily experts, but certainly may have more experience with autistic children than MBM or DM. It would also be interesting to know, aside from being behind in school, what autism traits did L exhibit, and what autism traits did J exhibit.

We can’t really compare J and L’s case to that of children with a definite diagnosis of autism. Even if they are autistic, the spectrum is huge, and we cannot assume J and L are in any way similar to, say, Darius M. What we know from MBM’s one interview is that they would talk to anyone, and DM said they would go with anyone. In my opinion, this is not consistent with the type of autistic children who would shy away from the voices of searchers in the woods, or hide from the adults who could bring them to safety, warmth and food.
IMHO

 

[MistyWaters]

The children were never assessed as having autism. There are a lot of reasons for not keeping up with the other kids in school, autism is not the first reason to consider. It would be interesting to know if any of their teachers suspected autism as well. Teacher are also not necessarily experts, but certainly may have more experience with autistic children than MBM or DM. It would also be interesting to know, aside from being behind in school, what autism traits did L exhibit, and what autism traits did J exhibit.

We can’t really compare J and L’s case to that of children with a definite diagnosis of autism. Even if they are autistic, the spectrum is huge, and we cannot assume J and L are in any way similar to, say, Darius M. What we know from MBM’s one interview is that they would talk to anyone, and DM said they would go with anyone. In my opinion, this is not consistent with the type of autistic children who would shy away from the voices of searchers in the woods, or hide from the adults who could bring them to safety, warmth and food.
IMHO

Nobody is assuming nor is it possible to diagnose anything by the contents of media stories. However it was both of the parents who mentioned the possibility of undiagnosed autism and that’s why the topic arises. The suggestion by each of them obviously came from somewhere and iirc according to DM, testing was to be undertaken later that same month of May.

If indeed an autistic diagnosis had been confirmed, it likely would’ve significantly impacted the general nature of the search for the two children, as was noted during a recent search for another missing child in B.C. who was known to be autistic. For example that search avoided the use of bright lights.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

But don't you think Daniel would have noticed that the kids were missing from the van if they had been kidnapped in the parking lot?

Maybe not kidnap then and there, maybe lingering, watching or 'listening' to hear what they were up to or where they were going.

Was the friend from work DM chatted to with anyone else there? Who knows, maybe DM said to his buddy they've been out and about all day and they're exhausted and heading home to crash... maybe someone heard that and knew everyone was tired and might be in a deep sleep?

Sorry I can't remember everything the documents said was talked about. I'm hypothesizing/theorizing and speculating MOO