NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #12 *Arrest*

[Marantz4250b]

There are a few aspects in this case that I still feel I'm missing. If someone has posted the answers, sorry, I've missed them.

The phone call LM was on 10 minutes before he shot BT. It was early morning, so while it could have been a personal call--that seems unlikely. It seems more likely he was talking to someone who knew about the upcoming shooting. JMOO

The bike. This is a sticking point for me. LE said it wasn't a CitiBike, so where did he get it, and more to the point, where did he store it? How did he get from the hostel to the 54th in 6 minutes? Maybe I'm tracking it wrong on GPS, but I come up with 19 minutes on an e-bike. Did he take a taxi and have the bike hidden?

The police have said that they aren't looking for anyone else.

As far as I can see there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest anyone else was involved. Mangione's character strongly suggests to me that he did this alone. He's not the type to share the glory and I definitely think that he wouldn't admit to needing help.

 

[Marantz4250b]

“I think it’s very unlikely that a case like this is going to confront something like jury nullification,” Gregory Germain, a professor at Syracuse University College of Law, said. “Most of us hate insurance companies and have had difficult experiences dealing with insurance companies, but that doesn’t mean we think people should be going around murdering insurance executives in the street.”

Germain said it’s unlikely potential nullifiers will be able to hide that level of bias during the jury selection process. He adds that while Mangione does have a large fanbase, most “people who want to live in a civilized society are not going to find him to be an appealing defendant.”

https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/fandom-jury-nullification-luigi-mangione-trial/

I agree here. This is not going to see a jury refusing to convict in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt. It's just click-bait nonsense, imo.

Jury nullification, as far as I can tell, seems to be a bit of a myth, tbh. In all the times it's been discussed on here no one has yet cited a single case of clear, unambiguous jury nullification.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I tend to think along the same lines.

While it might be a bigger risk in this case, it's unlikely to rise to the level that a jury actually nullifies.

I could see a hung jury, however.

Possibly but I think even that is unlikely.

I know he's entered a not guilty plea but in every other respect he's never really denied that he did it. Unless there's some evidence we know nothing about then I can't see how anyone could arrive at the decision that he didn't do it.

They'll convict.

MOO

 

[GRT]

The police have said that they aren't looking for anyone else.

As far as I can see there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest anyone else was involved. Mangione's character strongly suggests to me that he did this alone. He's not the type to share the glory and I definitely think that he wouldn't admit to needing help.

He might have done it all himself, but logistically, some of the steps would be challenging if he did. I agree that he seems like the lone-wolf type, but I'm not yet convinced someone else wasn't involved at some point.

 

[GRT]

I agree here. This is not going to see a jury refusing to convict in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt. It's just click-bait nonsense, imo.

Jury nullification, as far as I can tell, seems to be a bit of a myth, tbh. In all the times it's been discussed on here no one has yet cited a single case of clear, unambiguous jury nullification.

I think it's a long shot in this case, but it's not a myth.

OJ Simpson
Rodney King
Cliven Bundy

Just a few examples of probable nullification.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think it's a long shot in this case, but it's not a myth.

OJ Simpson
Rodney King
Cliven Bundy

Just a few examples of probable nullification.

O J Simpson wasn't a case of jury nullification. Perverse verdict, perhaps, but it most certainly wasn't a case of the jury saying ...we know he did this but we're gonna let him off... The prosecution simply didn't, in the minds of that particular jury, prove its case to the relevant standard.

Remember the closing arguments of his defence regarding the glove - if it doesn't fit you must acquit. That was one of the things which introduced enough doubt, imo. It was never the case that they let him off a brutally horrific double murder because he was a sports hero.

Rodney King wasn't a case of JN, either, and I'm not aware of anyone seriously suggesting it was. The jury deliberated for seven days and actually couldn't reach a verdict on one officer so how can it be said that they'd simply decided to let them off?

I'm not familiar with the last one.

 

[Angelcat13]

I'd say she had a strong sense of her son as a person and was being honest in the moment. What some see as "throwing him under the bus," I'd say was powerful self-awareness on her part, regarding her truth.
Parents of murderers get criticized sometimes for being in denial and protecting their son or daughter, despite a henious crime. Maybe she's just different (in a good way) than many parents, IMO.

Sadly it seems she couldn’t win either way. If she did truthfully say that she could see him doing something like this, she gets accused of throwing him under the bus, turning her back on her son, etc. Some people may even take this a step further and question why she didn’t come forward to police when the first pictures were released - “she was covering for him” - or even arguing that she could be somewhat culpable because she didn’t try to warn authorities BEFORE the shooting that she thought her son may be dangerous to himself or others.

But if she says she can’t see her son doing something like this, many people will accuse her of being in denial (“Not my son!”) or actually covering for him.

We really don’t know what her reasons were for reporting him missing and hiring a PI to try to find him. It could have simply been a parents deep concern for her son - is he physically and/or mentally OK, has he injured himself, has he been a victim, is he angry at the family, etc. Or could she have been trying to find him because she did have some concerns that he could be a danger to himself of others? But, as a parent, there is a HUGE difference between possibly having some concerns that your son may be having mental health and/or substance abuse issues that may lead him to accidentally or intentionally harm himself and believing that he could be capable of actually injuring or killing someone else.

Either way, she is in a “lose /lose” situation that must be absolutely soul-crushing.

I wonder why there seems to be this negativity towards the mom (though I haven’t heard any negative comments towards/about the dad except for wondering why he’s been silent) when there was so much praise for the Unabomber’s brother when he (admittedly) made the agonizing decision to turn his brother in in order to save other people?

 

[kae27]

O J Simpson wasn't a case of jury nullification. Perverse verdict, perhaps, but it most certainly wasn't a case of the jury saying ...we know he did this but we're gonna let him off... The prosecution simply didn't, in the minds of that particular jury, prove its case to the relevant standard.

SBM. While it's impossible to know for sure, I just watched the Oscar-winning documentary "O.J., Made in America" recently, and one of the two jurors in the film stated that 90% of them believed he did it but found him not guilty as "payback" (literally the word used) for the Rodney King stuff and other perceived injustices against Black people. So this seems close to jury nullification to me. Agree with you that it's exceedingly rare, though.

 

[al66pine]

LM. Firearms Experience. Range in Thailand?

That's a random fact spun in a way to make it seem relevant to the case, imo.

My personal feeling is that visiting a range in Thailand or wherever it was certainly not the first time he had used a pistol. He knew what that gun was going to do and how to clear it and suchlike.

@Marantz4250b
I think your assessment about LM's firearms experience - based on viewing the NYC vid - is more accurate than mine would ever be. Thx for your post.

May or may not be relevant re the crim cases.
Thailand gun laws,* not as restrictive as I speculated.
Appears there are gun ranges** which foreign tourists can visit in Thailand.
Plausible that LM could have shot somewhere in the country.

From website's Q & A.**
"Do I need photo identification to shoot?
"A picture on your mobile of a valid photo ID is preferable."

Hmmm, if he used BOGUS ID months before NYC killing, could indicate planning for A homicide. Or not, IDK.
If so, LM may not have identified BT as THE target at that point. IIRC, it was not until OCT 2024, that LM made note about NYC investor conference.

Possible imo.
__________________
* Firearms in Thailand - Wikipedia
** Bangkok Shooting Range for Everybody | Bangkok Shooting Club

 

[girlhasnoname]

Sadly it seems she couldn’t win either way. If she did truthfully say that she could see him doing something like this, she gets accused of throwing him under the bus, turning her back on her son, etc. Some people may even take this a step further and question why she didn’t come forward to police when the first pictures were released - “she was covering for him” - or even arguing that she could be somewhat culpable because she didn’t try to warn authorities BEFORE the shooting that she thought her son may be dangerous to himself or others.

But if she says she can’t see her son doing something like this, many people will accuse her of being in denial (“Not my son!”) or actually covering for him.

We really don’t know what her reasons were for reporting him missing and hiring a PI to try to find him. It could have simply been a parents deep concern for her son - is he physically and/or mentally OK, has he injured himself, has he been a victim, is he angry at the family, etc. Or could she have been trying to find him because she did have some concerns that he could be a danger to himself of others? But, as a parent, there is a HUGE difference between possibly having some concerns that your son may be having mental health and/or substance abuse issues that may lead him to accidentally or intentionally harm himself and believing that he could be capable of actually injuring or killing someone else.

Either way, she is in a “lose /lose” situation that must be absolutely soul-crushing.

I wonder why there seems to be this negativity towards the mom (though I haven’t heard any negative comments towards/about the dad except for wondering why he’s been silent) when there was so much praise for the Unabomber’s brother when he (admittedly) made the agonizing decision to turn his brother in in order to save other people?

I feel no negativity towards LM's Mother at all, she's a victim of his actions too IMO. LE spoke to her about the circumstances and she answered as honestly as she knew based on the information she had.

That is commendable to me and I feel bad that LM has put her in the position to begin. He is the one at fault here, not his family.

JMO

 

[FromGermany1]

I feel no negativity towards LM's Mother at all, she's a victim of his actions too IMO. LE spoke to her about the circumstances and she answered as honestly as she knew based on the information she had.

That is commendable to me and I feel bad that LM has put her in the position to begin. He is the one at fault here, not his family.

JMO

Where is the father in this story about LM? He doesn't appear in any scene, afaik, although he is responsible just like the mother, if parents are responsible for their adult children.

 

[waldojabba]

That sounds exactly right to me. Not some martyr devout to the cause, but a mentally ill dude who just needed a target. I continue to believe he did this for notoriety and ego.

It will always annoy me that people can't see this for what it is.

BBM above " It will always annoy me that people can't see this for what it is" - ...he did this for notoriety and ego.

So here I am I sense - one of the posters that annoy you.
And I am okay with that
In my life experience not everything is as black and white as I would like it to be.
Black and white = basically killing is wrong and against the law so if you kill you get punished etc – no disagreement here.
How people get to that point of killing in my mind is not always so transparent or as black and white as I’d like.You might say does it matter – and I think yes it does – not to absolve a person of their crimes, or let them off the hook, but to gain knowledge to prevent future killings. We have a mental health crisis in this country that I believe is at a boiling point. Simplistically, people who have chemical imbalances in their brains cannot just pull themselves
up by the bootstraps or just toughen up. It does not mean they should not be held accountable.(
the fact that I have to highlite/bold this also makes me "crazy" that people cannot see that its not a" killing is wrong, but.... statement).

So my pet peeve is those that show no understanding of mental illness or think it is just an excuse for poor behavior. Or ego or something logical.If no one in your circle has ever been touched by the inopportune onslaught of schizophrenia and the like, you are very fortunate indeed.

In my way of thinking there are no two truly mentally ill people ( I am not talking about the garden variety anxiety and depression) that think alike and there is no way in hell to understand what they are thinking unless they tell you.
And even then what they tell you is often what I might classify as bizarre and many times do they even know what they were thinking.

Medication helps some people etc but not all.

Our jails are full of people who went untreated for mental illness and probably remain that way. Lots I imagine turn to alcohol/ illegal drugs to self-medicate and try and keep the bad thoughts about self harm/harm of others etc at bay.

As far as I know we have not seen any actual medical evaluations on this guy - so it's tough to see it ( his reason for killing) for what it exactly is or to pin it with any certainty - so my mind is certainly open but I see all the ear marks for a deeply disturbed individual. Someone who took a big drastic wrong turn for seemingly no logical reason.

But that's just my opinion

 

[waldojabba]

Where is the father in this story about LM? He doesn't appear in any scene, afaik, although he is responsible just like the mother, if parents are responsible for their adult children.

afaik - we have only seen him in a few pictures. Odd? You decide. JMO

 

[waldojabba]

TMZ Special:

Two acquaintances in Thailand:

He went to the shooting range before he went to the beach with them, said it was expensive.

Bought 400 copies of a book (I think digital Amazon ones) to help support the author. Wanted to give this guy feedback, and wrote his own notes, flying to India to meet the author, Jash Dholani . Dholani confirmed that he met with Mangione for an hour, but wouldn't say anything specific.

Arrogant in that he wanted to tell the author how to improve the book. His acquaintances say that Mangione's way was the right way. Had strong opinions.

On the surface he lived a charmed life. Family owned 2 country clubs and 9 nursing homes. Ivy League College. Someone at his private high school said he had odd episodes and would lash out. Another person said he told friends he didn't feel emotion the way others do. Once got in an argument with a girlfriend and said he didn't feel emotion over it.

Former LAPD Detective thinks mom thew him under the bus, "something I could see him doing." Suspects she knew he had issues.

Talking about the difficulty of the insanity defense here, and how he clearly knew he was doing.

90% is fluff, opinions, and creepy TikTok weirdos who support this, but that's the relevant stuff so far.

IMO There is no insanity defense for him - he clearly knew he was killing and it was wrong. But that does not mean hes not mentally ill.
Both can def be true. IMO

 

[MassGuy]

BBM above " It will always annoy me that people can't see this for what it is" - ...he did this for notoriety and ego.

So here I am I sense - one of the posters that annoy you.
And I am okay with that
In my life experience not everything is as black and white as I would like it to be.
Black and white = basically killing is wrong and against the law so if you kill you get punished etc – no disagreement here.
How people get to that point of killing in my mind is not always so transparent or as black and white as I’d like.You might say does it matter – and I think yes it does – not to absolve a person of their crimes, or let them off the hook, but to gain knowledge to prevent future killings. We have a mental health crisis in this country that I believe is at a boiling point. Simplistically, people who have chemical imbalances in their brains cannot just pull themselves
up by the bootstraps or just toughen up. It does not mean they should not be held accountable.(
the fact that I have to highlite/bold this also makes me "crazy" that people cannot see that its not a" killing is wrong, but.... statement).

So my pet peeve is those that show no understanding of mental illness or think it is just an excuse for poor behavior. Or ego or something logical.If no one in your circle has ever been touched by the inopportune onslaught of schizophrenia and the like, you are very fortunate indeed.

In my way of thinking there are no two truly mentally ill people ( I am not talking about the garden variety anxiety and depression) that think alike and there is no way in hell to understand what they are thinking unless they tell you.
And even then what they tell you is often what I might classify as bizarre and many times do they even know what they were thinking.

Medication helps some people etc but not all.

Our jails are full of people who went untreated for mental illness and probably remain that way. Lots I imagine turn to alcohol/ illegal drugs to self-medicate and try and keep the bad thoughts about self harm/harm of others etc at bay.

As far as I know we have not seen any actual medical evaluations on this guy - so it's tough to see it ( his reason for killing) for what it exactly is or to pin it with any certainty - so my mind is certainly open but I see all the ear marks for a deeply disturbed individual. Someone who took a big drastic wrong turn for seemingly no logical reason.

But that's just my opinion

Yes, I think we’re saying similar things. I do believe he is mentally disturbed, but a mentally disturbed person can kill for notoriety and egotistical reasons.

I cannot think of a single assassin who was remotely close to normal (psychologically). It comes with the territory. From Oswald to would-be assassin Crooks, there are common threads that lie beneath their mental disturbance.

I didn’t pull this out of thin air; just look at the psychological profile of pretty much every assassin in history.

These people feel inadequate, they want fame, or a special place in history (Ego, notoriety).

He literally said as much in his note, “It is it an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power takes at play. Evidentially, I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty.”

My point is this. I’ve said from the beginning that LM clearly had something going on mentally, not only because history tells us that, but because he dropped off the grid, and broke all established patterns.

But his motive was a self serving one, and not some effort to make the world a better place.

So when I say that “people can’t see this for what it is,” that’s what I’m referring to.

 

[waldojabba]

Do we really think this case is going to trial ?
Is that in the best interest of Mangione?
Is that in the best interest of United Health ?

My thoughts:
-Mangione is from a well connected as well as monied family out of Baltimore who has "sway" imo. HIs best interest as well as his families, who value their privacy, is served by negotiating a plea. He's not directing the lawyers - the people paying for his defense are - his family is in charge. He really has no other choice IMO
-United Health Care - you don't think United Health Care will be on trial ?- Sure the prosecution will try and keep things out of the court room but social media/MSM etc will be on FIRE with all the "bad" deeds of the corporate entity.
United will want the damage contained. They will very much want to move on and not be mired in this.
So, I still think there will bea a plea here. It benefits both parties.

Or ..maybe I have just watched too much netflix lol - but I am sticking with plea

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Where is the father in this story about LM? He doesn't appear in any scene, afaik, although he is responsible just like the mother, if parents are responsible for their adult children.

Much older I believe he’s 70.

I had a friend that reminded me of LM. Very bright, older parents and siblings. His parents would basically live ‘retired life’ and leave him to his own devices. He was very lonely and angry. All MOO/personal experience.

 

[MassGuy]

Do we really think this case is going to trial ?
Is that in the best interest of Mangione?
Is that in the best interest of United Health ?

My thoughts:
-Mangione is from a well connected as well as monied family out of Baltimore who has "sway" imo. HIs best interest as well as his families, who value their privacy, is served by negotiating a plea. He's not directing the lawyers - the people paying for his defense are - his family is in charge. He really has no other choice IMO
-United Health Care - you don't think United Health Care will be on trial ?- Sure the prosecution will try and keep things out of the court room but social media/MSM etc will be on FIRE with all the "bad" deeds of the corporate entity.
United will want the damage contained. They will very much want to move on and not be mired in this.
So, I still think there will bea a plea here. It benefits both parties.

Or ..maybe I have just watched too much netflix lol - but I am sticking with plea

It doesn't matter who is paying for his defense, ultimately, he makes the call when it comes to what his lawyers do (deal or otherwise).

I think any deal in his state case would be for 25-life, which is already the most probable outcome at trial, IMO. So I wouldn't be surprised if he felt inclined to roll the dice, especially because I believe he craves the attention.

The state charges are the least of his concern though, as the most probable outcome in Federal Court is life without parole. That's where they need to strike some sort of deal, and I can't see the government doing that unless it's very lengthy (decades).

 

[waldojabba]

Yes, I think we’re saying similar things. I do believe he is mentally disturbed, but a mentally disturbed person can kill for notoriety and egotistical reasons.

I cannot think of a single assassin who was remotely close to normal (psychologically). It comes with the territory. From Oswald to would-be assassin Crooks, there are common threads that lie beneath their mental disturbance.

I didn’t pull this out of thin air; just look at the psychological profile of pretty much every assassin in history.

These people feel inadequate, they want fame, or a special place in history (Ego, notoriety).

He literally said as much in his note, “It is it an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power takes at play. Evidentially, I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty.”

My point is this. I’ve said from the beginning that LM clearly had something going on mentally, not only because history tells us that, but because he dropped off the grid, and broke all established patterns.

But his motive was a self serving one, and not some effort to make the world a better place.

So when I say that “people can’t see this for what it is,” that’s what I’m referring to.

Appreciate the clarification @MassGuy -

I never believed he was a knight in shining armor.( Albeit others grabbed onto him to be the defacto prince of their cause). So yes I see it for what it is as you say then, a deeply disturbed guy who "acted out" and killed.

I also don't believe a word of that "manifesto". Did he ? Who knows in his warped mind what he thought he thought. I suspect lots of layers of denial (subconcious) going on in that mind

That manifesto to me was his damage control- his trying to save face so yes ego - his oh F moment in Altoona where he is floundering bc he really had no after plan - In my heart of hearts I think he wanted suicide by cop - he was just so far afield mentally he thought that was his solution.- that was his way out. So he kills and hopes to be killed.

But thats just my speculation since I cannot know really.

Suicide by cop is a cowardly act and extremely "self serving" so we can agree on that part too .

That wasn't so hard

JMO

 

[waldojabba]

It doesn't matter who is paying for his defense, ultimately, he makes the call when it comes to what his lawyers do (deal or otherwise).

I think any deal in his state case would be for 25-life, which is already the most probable outcome at trial, IMO. So I wouldn't be surprised if he felt inclined to roll the dice, especially because I believe he craves the attention.

The state charges are the least of his concern though, as the most probable outcome in Federal Court is life without parole. That's where they need to strike some sort of deal, and I can't see the government doing that unless it's very lengthy (decades).

Agree with 25-life. Death penalty comes off the table. Nicest prison closest to home etc. Not immediatley by any means and it also depends on how far those connections reach. But this never goes to trial. Luigi will get on board. IMO.