4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #89

[Jurisprudence]

<snipped> Not surprised actually

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students while attending a career institute in Pennsylvania, according to a former school administrator.

Fox Nation on Sunday released an exclusive special titled Bryan Kohberger: I Am Blank, in which Nancy Grace spoke with many people who had experiences with the Idaho murder suspect, including Tanya Carmella-Beers, who served as Kohberger's former administrator at the Monroe Career & Technical Institute.

Carmella-Beers explained that Kohberger was initially in the protective services program at the Institute, where he sought to prepare for a career in law enforcement. However, she said that after two incidents, he was moved into another program where there were no female students.

Bryan Kohberger was moved away from female students, administrator reveals

Yes, I don't have a link so this is MOO, I remember hearing a similar report. He was removed for those reasons and placed into the HVAC program.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Yes. Close analysis of a shoe print will reveal something of the foot mechanics. And there is more than the latent print, because that’s what latent means.

Because of the wear, I'm guessing? For example, if someone is a heel walker, or has a turned in foot the wear pattern of the shoe/sole (and hence the print) would reflect this?

That would make sense to me except I'm not sure he wore his shoes to this crime scene. I was thinking he wore everything new in order to put further distance between him and the scene. In this case, I'd think there would be no discernible wear pattern. The dickies tag found in Pullman has bothered me - I have always speculated it might be for a coverall. I would think shoes would be new too, and he wouldn't choose vans. Too slippery.

I have always thought there is a chance that print could belong to someone else. I think I remember seeing that Xana and others in the house owned Vans. Did Ethan? What if it belonged to someone who was called to the home that morning? There are a lot of questions.

All speculation/MOO

 

[al66pine]

BK's Night Running Pal.

I forgot about that guy. I wonder if he was ever interviewed by LE and the prosecutor's office bc when we learned of him he was only interviewed by news media, right?

@Jurisprudence
Yes, I recall MSM short vid interview of night-running pal.
Sorry, no link.
And I wonder, but don't know, if LE interviewed him.

Hope so.

 

[Jurisprudence]

at 8:00
"We look at all the information we can get about them because they are being given inside information about how police handle their business"

"He very much need to be in control ... he liked it when the other students answered to him but it was to the nth degree, it was a little much. At that time I just thought he was really zealous."

Okay, so this program does confirm he was transferred in HVAC but I don't believe he was transferred there because that program "had no women." And I don't hear the interview in the video stating this either. I remember hearing (moo) that when he was told he was being removed he chose that HVAC program because that is what his father did for the school? (Don't quote me on this except to state that imoo), I think it was simply a coincidence that he transferred into a program without women, as opposed to a mandate or deliberate act on the part of the school.

The reason this stuck with me for so long, though since the gag order so much has been hard to obtain, is because of the King Road home. There was some specualtion about the heat being turned all the way down, I think. And, then sometime shortly after, an HVAC truck was photographed at the home. I just did a search for this and there's a clip where they're wondering aloud whether the HVAC people were called in to assist in the investigation. I did not think this was the case. Right or wrong, I thought he messed with the system on the night of the crimes, turned it all the way down (or turn it off altogether, it was very cold that night, freeze the pipes?) to throw off time of death. Though I think I read somewhere that turning down the heat would not throw off TOD. Anyway my guess (guess only) is that he did something to the heat.

All jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

at 29:51 the News reporter states that the search of his Pullman apartment yielded:

"shoes with diamond-pattern soles which match a footprint found at the crime scene"

I don't know where she got that information. We have warrant return (page 48) and shoes were not part of the property seized. So, this is incorrect information imo unless there is a page missing that wasn't uploaded to the docket.

Kohberger warrant

www.documentcloud.org

It was listed as something they sought to obtain as part of the search (#4, p.42), but not seized.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

Another thought on the warrants. Dateline claimed that LE has evidence from Amazon that BK purchased a knife in April. I think the STRONGEST evidence that we have supporting this claim is here in the Amazon warrant...

The warrant is for...
March 20, 2022 - March 30,2022

I wouldn't be surprised if LE has evidence that BK made the purchase on 4/1/2022. Fitting the 'April' time that Dateline gave. LE wants click activity to start to build a digital trail to that purchase. See what else might have been in his cart that never made checkout.

So why the 2nd window of dates (11/1/2022 - 12/6/2022)? Why the venmo and paypal?

I think LE believes that BK used Amazon to order more mundane its in preparation for the crime that might not raise eyebrows.

I also believe that LE is probably still missing an item or two that they suspect BK used to commit the crimes. And that they are looking into Venmo to find any private sales BK may have been involved in.

MOO

Where are these dates? I am only seeing orders sealing these warrants (and returns) with boilerplate language.

TIA

 

[Jurisprudence]

Interesting...

That Youtube warrant looks like boilerplate requests specific to a Channel owner. Not a viewer. It is possible to accidentally (or intentionally) create a channel and not upload any content to it though. I'd imagine that LE would still want the information requested in the warrant even with empty accounts.

I wonder if LE found a channel that BK himself ran. Or maybe LE found a comment on a Youtube channel, not owned by BK, that hit a little too close to home.

Are you saying it's a channel owner/content creator because the warrant is directed at YouTube Studios, or are you seeing the actual warrant somewhere? TIA

It's interesting if it's directed at content creators because there were a lot of rumblings that he might have called in to some of those channels who were desperately trying to capitalize on the sensationalism of these crimes with "Live Streams" every day just to increase their (monetized) channel revenue. Perhaps they are pretty convinced they can (or already did) catch him on audio.

jmo

 

[realanastasia]

at 8:00
"We look at all the information we can get about them because they are being given inside information about how police handle their business"

"He very much need to be in control ... he liked it when the other students answered to him but it was to the nth degree, it was a little much. At that time I just thought he was really zealous."

Okay, so this program does confirm he was transferred in HVAC but I don't believe he was transferred there because that program "had no women." And I don't hear the interview in the video stating this either. I remember hearing (moo) that when he was told he was being removed he chose that HVAC program because that is what his father did for the school? (Don't quote me on this except to state that imoo), I think it was simply a coincidence that he transferred into a program without women, as opposed to a mandate or deliberate act on the part of the school.

The reason this stuck with me for so long, though since the gag order so much has been hard to obtain, is because of the King Road home. There was some specualtion about the heat being turned all the way down, I think. And, then sometime shortly after, an HVAC truck was photographed at the home. I just did a search for this and there's a clip where they're wondering aloud whether the HVAC people were called in to assist in the investigation. I did not think this was the case. Right or wrong, I thought he messed with the system on the night of the crimes, turned it all the way down (or turn it off altogether, it was very cold that night, freeze the pipes?) to throw off time of death. Though I think I read somewhere that turning down the heat would not throw off TOD. Anyway my guess (guess only) is that he did something to the heat.

All jmo

1) I don’t think a school could legally restrict a student’s choice of major (or academic program) to one in which only students of the same gender are enrolled (I believe that would violate Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1964).

2) If the heat in the King Road house HAD been cut (which is purely hypothetical), it might provide another explanation for why KG and MM decided to bunk together that evening (in addition to the other potential explanations).

 

[Jurisprudence]

1) I don’t think a school could legally restrict a student’s choice of major (or academic program) to one in which only students of the same gender are enrolled (I believe that would violate Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1964).

2) If the heat in the King Road house HAD been cut (which is purely hypothetical), it might provide another explanation for why KG and MM decided to bunk together that evening (in addition to the other potential explanations).

I agree with your first. I don't think they can do this either. I think he chose this and it just happened to not have females in it. jmo

On #2, I have no idea of course, but I was thinking he (if it is shown to be him, of course) turned it off at the thermostat sometime during the time he was committing the act. I don't know if Kaylee's bed was still there. I think she moved out the week prior. I was thinking even if she left it behind, she probably had no bedding which is why she was in with Maddie.

jmo

 

[10ofRods]

Because of the wear, I'm guessing? For example, if someone is a heel walker, or has a turned in foot the wear pattern of the shoe/sole (and hence the print) would reflect this?

That would make sense to me except I'm not sure he wore his shoes to this crime scene. I was thinking he wore everything new in order to put further distance between him and the scene. In this case, I'd think there would be no discernible wear pattern. The dickies tag found in Pullman has bothered me - I have always speculated it might be for a coverall. I would think shoes would be new too, and he wouldn't choose vans. Too slippery.

I have always thought there is a chance that print could belong to someone else. I think I remember seeing that Xana and others in the house owned Vans. Did Ethan? What if it belonged to someone who was called to the home that morning? There are a lot of questions.

All speculation/MOO

Not just because of wear.

Your foot exerts pressure against gravity. When there is a liquid on the bottom of your shoe or foot, that liquid is like sticking your foot onto an ink pad. Think how an ink pad works (especially when used ineptly by someone like me). The idea is that you should strike the paper with the stamp with equal force across the stamp (I never manage it).

Your foot does NOT try to strike equally. It tries very hard to do the opposite. One's heel usually strikes first (so blood on the bottom is going to be stronger in that first print, on the heel; then the foot plants the rest of itself (some people pronate, some don't, some have a high arch, etc) but where your arch is? It's like that place on the stamp where you didn't press hard enough.

So each successive footprint reveals something about the mechanics of the foot. The arch should be quite visible in the earlier, bloodier footprints. They used both luminol and Amido black. We don't know if they saw any footprints without the luminol, but since he apparently stepped in a pool of blood, I'm guessing they did. So first there's a bloody outline of the sole (but the arch area is hardly making an impression). Lastly, we use the fall of our foot and then our toes (in my case, mostly only my big toe, which is a known situation with people who have my toe pattern).

It will look under close analysis much more like a person walking across sand. People with long, strong toes (runners have stronger toes than I do) will have a stronger "stamp" in the toe box than someone like me. I pronate a lot on my left foot and that would be observable in a new print (me wearing shoes), a luminol print and an Amido black print, each with similar but slowly disappearing information. We're probably talking about analyzing how many microns of blood are layered in the print. Then, of course, you want to compare it to shoes worn by the suspect.

It's only part of the picture, but the speed at which the person was moving, their weight, etc as well as the action pattern of their foot are things that MUST match the suspect. If they didn't, the Defense would be all over it. Obviously, what they have so far would show sex, height, weight of the perp (and probably a few other foot characteristics, as mentioned). They do not identify him - but they decrease the numbers of an already very small group of people who had opportunity, were in the area, and were inside the house. Kohberger DNA, Kohberger size shoes, Kohberger width foot, Kohberger so tall, and even just one other detail - strong heel strike?? - would help the State.

This is a long article, but it does (near the beginning) point out how rapidly new shoes take on the traits of the gait/foot, even without stepping into a fluid to help with the analysis. Finding the actual shoes would be great, but the shoe print is the next best thing - and now, they have Kohberger's actual shoes to compare. Such analysis can also show the specific movements of a person at a crime scene (if he had blood on his feet upstairs, they'd know how many steps he took up there, whether he scuffed his feet or stood hesitating, whether he skipped stairs on the way down, whether he circled Xana at any point in time, whether he stood still or was moving at a particular point - it will give the jury a mini-movie).

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.b.20025

The person represented by the below picture puts more weight on the outside of their foot than I do (so, the opposite of pronating) and has a high arch:



These are a series, and obviously in a softer medium, but it shows how prints become latent (less visible) and you can see where the ball of the foot is and how the person strikes with their heel but only barely on the outer side of their foot. These same properties will appear across all their shoes.

I guess maybe it's not much, but I've always admired the pioneering work of the footprint forensic people.

 

[gremlin444]

Where are these dates? I am only seeing orders sealing these warrants (and returns) with boilerplate language.

TIA

You need to scroll down to page 11 of the Amazon order, the actual warrant is after all the seal/redact/etc.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/090823-Order-to-Seal-and-Redact-Amazon.pdf

 

[Jurisprudence]

It could be none of these are the weapon (even if he had 2 knives on him, which I think makes a lot of sense, jmo), but it's interesting to see how many knives they seized from him Pennsylvania home. (Person's handwriting is atrocious)

1. Knife (nondescript, which is curious in itself, imo)
5. Smith & Wesson pocket knife
57. Taylor cutlery knife with sheath
58-61 Followed by 4 swabs

Guns too, but we know no gun was used. Court documents are interesting (49) since the only incident with the courts that I think we know about was stealing his sister's cell phone to sell it several years ago.

Many computers.

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20230302/150419-dec.29,2022-searchwarrant(hyundaielantra),inventory,exhibits.pdf

 

[Jurisprudence]

You need to scroll down to page 11 of the Amazon order, the actual warrant is after all the seal/redact/etc.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/090823-Order-to-Seal-and-Redact-Amazon.pdf

Thank you!

 

[Jurisprudence]

You need to scroll down to page 11 of the Amazon order, the actual warrant is after all the seal/redact/etc.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/090823-Order-to-Seal-and-Redact-Amazon.pdf

Very specific targeted dates. They got them from somewhere. Maybe they got some information off one or more of the many computers they seized.

jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, I don't have a link so this is MOO, I remember hearing a similar report. He was removed for those reasons and placed into the HVAC program.

jmo

I included the link at the end of my post.

 

[schooling]

Very specific targeted dates. They got them from somewhere. Maybe they got some information off one or more of the many computers they seized.

jmo

IMO the first set of dates is connected to the knife.

Dateline reported that Kohberger bought the knife in April. Let’s assume LE has evidence that the purchase was made on 4/1. If LE wants to create a digital trail leading up to that purchase. They would want to see what else he was searching for that might be connected to committing a crime like this but never made checkout with said knife.

The 2nd set of dates could be prep or cleaning supplies. That might point to him trying to cover up his crime or at least the consciousness of guilt.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

1) I don’t think a school could legally restrict a student’s choice of major (or academic program) to one in which only students of the same gender are enrolled (I believe that would violate Title IX of the Civil Rights Act of 1964).

2) If the heat in the King Road house HAD been cut (which is purely hypothetical), it might provide another explanation for why KG and MM decided to bunk together that evening (in addition to the other potential explanations).

But they can do it "extra-legally," in other ways. I just listened to an interview with an administrator from that school and the rules for remaining in the Public Protection program (I may have the name of it a little off) are strict. He broke them. She said that this meant he could not return for his junior year at the school, unless he could get into another major. I am part of a system that has a Public Safety/Protection cluster and a Health cluster of majors that seamlessly integrate among the various colleges. The administrator at Kohberger's school said that for both the Public Safety and the Health clusters, the rules were very strict and students, once cut from the program, had no right to return the next year. He was about to be placed in the general population of high school students, with no vocational certificate.

They made a deal with Kohberger and apparently the HVAC program had room in it. He must have wanted a vocational certificate badly (perhaps his parents thought this was a good idea).


So Kohberger may have had no option but HVAC OR starting all over in the general pool. He would have gotten a regular high school diploma, but no vocational/technical certificate.

Perhaps of all the vocational programs, HVAC was the least impacted. I'm not saying that administration didn't nudge him toward a program with no women in it, only that I doubt that was ever said out loud to him or part of the formal decision making. But the one administrator who has spoken out seems to think it was a factor, at least in her own mind (she speaks as if she was part of the decision making process).

At any rate, he then dropped out of HVAC on his own, once again entering a world (mostly online I think) where there were women in his classes. When he was studying psychology and in the psychology club, most of the pictures of events show mostly women. I don't have all the dates and sequences of events, but it appears that the administrator at his former college wasn't exceptionally surprised by the news that he was arrested. Her quotes are in the MSM thread.

IMO.

TL;DR Once barred from the Public Safety program due to misconduct, the usual thing that happened to a sophomore student was that they could not continue onward at all; the Public Safety program had its own admissions process and it was clear to all applicants that if they got kicked out, they had no automatic right to a junior year at this school's cluster of vocational programs; he was given an exception and allowed to enter HVAC, perfectly within the policies of the school and a generous, accomodting move on the part of the school, IMO. School policies stated that both police cadets and student nurses, once kicked out of their rigorous, special admission programs, had no right to return and supplant other students' quest for completion in the junior and senior vocational years. I believe she also mentions that he could have been expelled altogether.

Kohberger Cut From Cop Program Over Female Complaints: School Admin

"A situation occurred where a complaint was made and the teacher reported it to me and said ... an investigation needed to be conducted," Tanya Carmella-Beers says in an interview with The Idaho Massacre.

www.insideedition.com

 

[Jurisprudence]

IMO the first set of dates is connected to the knife.

Dateline reported that Kohberger bought the knife in April. Let’s assume LE has evidence that the purchase was made on 4/1. If LE wants to create a digital trail leading up to that purchase. They would want to see what else he was searching for that might be connected to committing a crime like this but never made checkout with said knife.

The 2nd set of dates could be prep or cleaning supplies. That might point to him trying to cover up his crime or at least the consciousness of guilt.

MOO

On the second set of dates I was thinking maybe shoes or gloves (though they did find another receipt in the apt too, and IIRC, Taylor went to the apt and retrieved a 3rd receipt from the bathroom (a receipt not found and/or collected by LE). On the gloves, the fact that it doesn't appear that he cut himself has made me wonder if he used the fish gloves. Cut resistant, no-slip gloves are all over Amazon. Having done the work before, even for a short time, he'd know about them. It would be interesting if that showed up on a search.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

He did not complete it. Instead, he transferred to DeSales, and used his psychology units from his first two years of underground and rounded out with a B.A. in psychology (which he took jointly with a 1 year master's program).

[snipped/BBM]

This is what I recall as well.

The thing that baffles me about this is how none of the incidents seem to have ended up on his disciplinary record, or if they did, how none of his subsequent schools seemed concerned about them.

jmo

 

[Cool Cats]

BK's Night Running Pal.

@Jurisprudence
Yes, I recall MSM short vid interview of night-running pal.
Sorry, no link.
And I wonder, but don't know, if LE interviewed him.

Hope so.

Pocono community reacts to arrest made in Idaho homicide investigation

CHESTNUTHILL TOWNSHIP, MONROE COUNTY (WBRE/WYOU) — With a suspect in custody for the quadruple homicide in Idaho, Eyewitness News wanted to hear from neighbors in Chestnuthill Township about the br…

www.pahomepage.com

Pocono community reacts to arrest made in Idaho homicide investigation​

Posted: Dec 30, 2022 / 05:28 PM EST
Updated: Dec 30, 2022 / 05:47 PM EST

CHESTNUTHILL TOWNSHIP, MONROE COUNTY (WBRE/WYOU) — With a suspect in custody for the quadruple homicide in Idaho, Eyewitness News wanted to hear from neighbors in Chestnuthill Township about the break in the case.

“I looked at the picture and I couldn’t believe who it was. It was Bryan Kohberger. I would text him and be like ‘hey you wanna go for a run’. We’d go for 6/7 mile runs at night so when I saw who it was I was just like in complete shock, it was so close to home,” recalled Schyler Jacobson of Effort.

“I’m still kind of like shaking knowing about that. It’s just unreal to think somebody could actually do that to somebody. It’s absolutely mind-boggling, my adrenaline is still kind of running after finding that information out,” described Jacobson.