4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #99

[MassGuy]

That is your opinion. You should state that b/c we do not know for a fact his car was anywhere near that house. The 12 'pings' means he was somewhere in a 27 mile radius. Most of you act like those pings are the driveway of 1122 King Rd and that's not the case.

Yes the complete lack of evidence in his car all but guarantees that nobody escaped a crime scene in that specific car after stabbing four people to death. Some of you say he must of prepped his car but again this is real life where it doesn't work like that.


As for the DNA it was touch or transfer DNA which is NOTHING. If you use that DNA to lean towards guilt then you have to give equal weight to the LACK OF VICTIM DNA in his car. There is no way the perp did not carry a spec of one victims dna to their next location (be it the car, or they ran, etc). People do not realize how much his car was stripped and analyzed: seats, air vents, carpeting. Something would have gone somewhere. And yet his car showed nothing and it also showed no evidence of cleaning agents. No shower curtain or shrink wrapping is going to cover that up. This is going to be a HUGE hurdle for the prosecution. AT can poke lots of holes in that touch DNA; the prosecution cannot create DNA.

We still don't know what BK will say do we? According to AT BF has exculpatory evidence or so she claims?

I've always thought it was odd also the the Police Chief loaded up the uhaul and drove it who know where?

I still think the 8 hour delay to call 911 is very odd.

But out of all of it, I find it all impossible that one guy with no connections went into a house with six cars in the driveway with nothing but a knife and somehow came out with not even a scratch. I say he didn't have a scratch b/c BK had a doctors appointment a couple days later and we'd of heard if he had cuts or bruises or the very least his students would of seen the cuts or bruises imo if he had any.

I find it odd they tried to have the house deep cleaned asap and AT had to put a stop to it.

I find it odd that they tore the house down asap.

So I'm not saying he's innocent but I do have reasonable doubt personally. I just hope the prosecution has a lot more than what we've seen so far. B/c if I was on the jury I would have reasonable doubt he did this.

All MOO

Again, there's a completely logical explanation as to why no DNA was found in that car, and yes, real life does work like that.

He comes dressed in clothes specifically designed to prevent blood getting on his body. He takes those clothes off. The combat knife ensures that he won't be leaving any DNA at the scene, and if not for the biggest error imaginable, there's no DNA to be found at all.

So the lack of victim DNA is explainable, but presence of his is not. Unless he's the killer of course.

Saying that the killer came out without a scratch, does not mean he's not the killer. Whoever committed this murder likely came out without a scratch, as there was no evidence that the killer cut himself. A combat knife used to massacre sleeping, perhaps intoxicated victims, means that there wouldn't be a struggle. It's not like he was engaging multiple standing, fighting individuals here.

"The 12 'pings' means he was somewhere in a 27 mile radius. Most of you act like those pings are the driveway of 1122 King Rd and that's not the case."

I don't know where you're getting that 27 number from, but it's going to be absolutely untrue. We've seen these CAST experts testify time and time again, including in cases where the locations were much more rural (towers few and far between), and they're almost always able to narrow it down much more than that. The prosecution said that nothing has changed in regards to expert opinions on this matter, and began referencing a third tower before the judge nixed the discussion.

 

[Justice101]

All MOO

It is my opinion his car definitely was not. I am open to him being involved but do not believe he did it by himself. I also lean towards BK has never stepped foot in that house which is why they only found a few of his skin cells on a moveable object.

In my opinion they have nothing on BK other than the transfer DNA. For me there is quite a bit of reasonable doubt.

That's my opinion. I realize it won't be popular but that is my opinion.

Yikes.

This one is pretty straightforward to me. Much more evidence than 90% of other cases.

Wonder what percent of defendants you would actually convict?

Nationally, 50% plead guilty so no trial and of the remaining 50% of cases that go to trial, I think the conviction rate is around 70%. So that is a guilty rate of 85%.

DNA is only available in 10% of murder cases.

 

[CKS]

The surveillance footage, timing, and cell phone activity are consistent with it being his vehicle. I don't know how you can say his car "definitely was not used." That's contrary to the evidence here, and while I can see not being convinced of that part, I don't understand such a conclusion.

The skin cell amount keeps decreasing with every retelling of that piece of evidence. First it was 20, then it was 8, now it's just a few. What matters is the context, and where that DNA was found. It wasn't found on a doorknob, or on some random object; it was found on a specific portion of a knife sheath that the killer would have had to touch.

Saying that the DNA is the only evidence in this case, is beyond disingenuous.

He drives a white car - lots of people drive white cars.

That car is believed to be a Hyundai - Ok, but that's still a lot of people.

His Hyundai happens to be leaving campus in the middle of the night, consistent with the timeframe of the murders - ok, getting somewhere.

His phone suddenly goes dark minutes into that trip, and only comes back online after the murders were believed to have occurred - Ok, now we're really getting somewhere.

His phone activity and surveillance footage put him arriving back at campus after the murders - Everything fits with it being his car.

The earliest he could have fallen asleep is around 6AM that morning, yet he's back in the area of the house 3 hours later.

Forget something Bryan?

WSU police had his name well before investigators in this case had it. Why? Because of that car.

All MOO

I disagree with nearly everything you wrote but that's my opinion. You're painting very broad brush strokes with your opinions. For example,when you say cell phone activity. What do you mean? His phone pinged 12 times in a 27 mile radius of the house. He lives 11 miles from the house so it might have 'pinged' while he was in his apartment.



Also, you really believe that someone who just committed this crime is going back to the crime scene a few hours later? Even if it was the actual knife surely you don't think that's really possible do you? Especially since the guy all but had a PHD in criminology. Personally, in my opinion I don't think that is likely at all.

Again, just so everyone knows I am not saying he's innocent. I just see plenty of reasonable doubt that I cannot say for sure 100% without reasonable doubt that BK committed this crime on his own or by himself.

Just my opinion.

 

[CKS]

Again, there's a completely logical explanation as to why no DNA was found in that car, and yes, real life does work like that.

He comes dressed in clothes specifically designed to prevent blood getting on his body. He takes those clothes off. The combat knife ensures that he won't be leaving any DNA at the scene, and if not for the biggest error imaginable, there's no DNA to be found at all.

So the lack of victim DNA is explainable, but presence of his is not. Unless he's the killer of course.

Saying that the killer came out without a scratch, does not mean he's not the killer. Whoever committed this murder likely came out without a scratch, as there was no evidence that the killer cut himself. A combat knife used to massacre sleeping, perhaps intoxicated victims, means that there wouldn't be a struggle. It's not like he was engaging multiple standing, fighting individuals here.

"The 12 'pings' means he was somewhere in a 27 mile radius. Most of you act like those pings are the driveway of 1122 King Rd and that's not the case."

I don't know where you're getting that 27 number from, but it's going to be absolutely untrue. We've seen these CAST experts testify time and time again, including in cases where the locations were much more rural (towers few and far between), and they're almost always able to narrow it down much more than that. The prosecution said that nothing has changed in regards to expert opinions on this matter, and began referencing a third tower before the judge nixed the discussion.

All MOO

Well on 'cell phone expert' Sy Ray testified all of the evidence is exculpatory from he's seen. What CAST experts are you talking about? Idaho LE?

What do cellphone records say about Bryan Kohberger’s location? Expert explains

But Levitan said a typical cellphone tower covers an area of 12 square miles. Someone could be miles away from the nearest cell tower, and Moscow is a roughly 3-by-5-mile town.

“You cannot pinpoint a person,” Levitan said about cellphone records. “There’s no chance any expert in the world can tell you where that person is located.”

Levitan added that the nearest cell tower to the King Road home covers an area of 27.3 square miles — the same size as nearly 14,000 football fields.

 

[mmeynstyn]

That is your opinion. You should state that b/c we do not know for a fact his car was anywhere near that house. The 12 'pings' means he was somewhere in a 27 mile radius. Most of you act like those pings are the driveway of 1122 King Rd and that's not the case.

snipped for focus

Not sure where you are getting this 27 mile radius - is that 1 tower? Anyways, when there was a slip in the hearing about a third tower, I started thinking they have a much better idea where his phone was compared to my original thought. IMO - NO, I do not think they can pinpoint his phone to the 1122 King Rd driveway (but who knows as I am no expert in this field, so maybe). However, just basic Venn diagram stuff here - triagulating with a third tower would really narrow the location as shown in the google image below:



edit to reiterate MOO and phone, not car.

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

I disagree with nearly everything you wrote but that's my opinion. You're painting very broad brush strokes with your opinions. For example,when you say cell phone activity. What do you mean? His phone pinged 12 times in a 27 mile radius of the house. He lives 11 miles from the house so it might have 'pinged' while he was in his apartment.



Also, you really believe that someone who just committed this crime is going back to the crime scene a few hours later? Even if it was the actual knife surely you don't think that's really possible do you? Especially since the guy all but had a PHD in criminology. Personally, in my opinion I don't think that is likely at all.

Again, just so everyone knows I am not saying he's innocent. I just see plenty of reasonable doubt that I cannot say for sure 100% without reasonable doubt that BK committed this crime on his own or by himself.

Just my opinion.

It is incredibly common for serial offenders (killers and arsonists) to return to the scene of the crime (I've said all along that I believe he was behaving like one). They get off on watching the police response. It has nothing to do with having a PHD in criminology, or being intelligent in general. It's a compulsion, not unlike the murders themselves.

They wouldn't mention the phone data if it was that vague. I assure you, it will be more specific than you can imagine.

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

Well on 'cell phone expert' Sy Ray testified all of the evidence is exculpatory from he's seen. What CAST experts are you talking about? Idaho LE?

What do cellphone records say about Bryan Kohberger’s location? Expert explains

But Levitan said a typical cellphone tower covers an area of 12 square miles. Someone could be miles away from the nearest cell tower, and Moscow is a roughly 3-by-5-mile town.

“You cannot pinpoint a person,” Levitan said about cellphone records. “There’s no chance any expert in the world can tell you where that person is located.”

Levitan added that the nearest cell tower to the King Road home covers an area of 27.3 square miles — the same size as nearly 14,000 football fields.

CAST experts are FBI agents specifically trained in this particular field. It's short for Cellular Analysis Survey Team. They've come up in a lot of cases many of us have followed on here, and they've single handedly pushed many a case over the edge for the prosecution. We were having very similar arguments in the Berreth case about how they'd never be able to provide evidence specific enough to prove the location of a phone (very rural area). The defense went after this data during the preliminary hearing, and didn't even bother trying to refute it at trial.

It was so game changing that the DA called them out first after the trial resulted in a guilty verdict.

Cell phone data is the new DNA, and it's going to be much more convincing than you can imagine here. If they say he was close to the house, he was close to the house.

ETA: I keep forgetting they have his phone. We’ve seen how specific that data can be. This tower stuff might become moot.

 

[Megnut]

All MOO

Well on 'cell phone expert' Sy Ray testified all of the evidence is exculpatory from he's seen. What CAST experts are you talking about? Idaho LE?

What do cellphone records say about Bryan Kohberger’s location? Expert explains

But Levitan said a typical cellphone tower covers an area of 12 square miles. Someone could be miles away from the nearest cell tower, and Moscow is a roughly 3-by-5-mile town.

“You cannot pinpoint a person,” Levitan said about cellphone records. “There’s no chance any expert in the world can tell you where that person is located.”

Levitan added that the nearest cell tower to the King Road home covers an area of 27.3 square miles — the same size as nearly 14,000 football fields.

Sy was very careful with his words, as I remember it. What they were talking about were so-called "missing" data points. So anywhere there is no data, you could argue maybe that's where BK was so, so long as there are potential places where BK could potentially be lands in favor of BK. For now.

Problem is, as was played out in the pre-hearing last week, AT's representation that BK/the Elantra couldn't be where the State's theory said he/it was so therefore it wasn't him/it was gutted by the State's response -- the camera in question didn't calorie the vehicle at that juncture, not because it wasn't there, but because it captures NO cars there.

It doesn't exist, LE can only collect what is collectable, but if there WERE a seamless video of the Elantra's entire Tour De Force as well all of Pullham and Moscow besides, and BK's Elantra is in the places LE theories it was, and not in the mysterious and magical places AT wants people to think exist, Sy would have to concede that the advantage falls to the State. His credibility would be blown to state otherwise, at such a juncture.

So he right. Right for now. All the places we don't know of, where BK's car might have been (where there are gaps between LE's mapping of it) are 100% exculpatory for BK.

If he's in one of them.

Of course if he were, that spot would be his alibi, and AT hasn't said as much. Instead, she's holding back on a full alibi until..... later. Which, having followed a lot of trials here, I know that that is decidedly NOT how and when defense attorneys representing defendants with actual alibis produce them. They don't follow with it, they LEAD --

JMO

 

[CKS]

It is incredibly common for serial offenders (killers and arsonists) to return to the scene of the crime (I've said all along that I believe he was behaving like one). They get off on watching the police response. It has nothing to do with having a PHD in criminology, or being intelligent in general. It's a compulsion, not unlike the murders themselves.

They wouldn't mention the phone data if it was that vague. I assure you, it will be more specific than you can imagine.

All MOO

In my opinion if they actually had anything more specific as you claim they would have already shared it with the defense. Wouldn't they have to? Or can they hide evidence from the defense?

All MOO

 

[Megnut]

All MOO

In my opinion if they actually had anything more specific as you claim they would have already shared it with the defense. Wouldn't they have to? Or can they hide evidence from the defense?

All MOO

Oh, the Defense knows. And none of it looks good for BK. All one has to do is look at what evidence the Defense is trying to suppress to know what evidence is most damning to the defendant.

The State isn't trying the case in court of public opinion or even in full, in hearings and in motions. They're saving it for the trial. And AT knows this. So she's doing her damnedest to get any and every piece of evidence thrown out now as she can.

JMO

 

[CKS]

Cell phone data is the new DNA, and it's going to be much more convincing than you can imagine here. If they say he was close to the house, he was close to the house.

All MOO

I will trust the cell phone expert's opinion over your opinion no offense.

But, Levitan said, when someone does show up in the coverage area of a cellphone tower, it doesn’t mean they were at the scene of the crime.

“Cellphone records as evidence are very reliable and useful, but it’s not DNA,” Levitan said in a follow-up email. “It doesn’t have the precision that would allow you to pinpoint a person’s phone. The best the state can say is that this phone was in a 27-square-mile area that includes the crime scene 12 times.”

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

I will trust the cell phone expert's opinion over your opinion no offense.

But, Levitan said, when someone does show up in the coverage area of a cellphone tower, it doesn’t mean they were at the scene of the crime.

“Cellphone records as evidence are very reliable and useful, but it’s not DNA,” Levitan said in a follow-up email. “It doesn’t have the precision that would allow you to pinpoint a person’s phone. The best the state can say is that this phone was in a 27-square-mile area that includes the crime scene 12 times.”

This guy isn’t a CAST expert working this case. He has no access to the data, nor access to the device itself.

 

[Jade]

All MOO

I disagree with nearly everything you wrote but that's my opinion. You're painting very broad brush strokes with your opinions. For example,when you say cell phone activity. What do you mean? His phone pinged 12 times in a 27 mile radius of the house. He lives 11 miles from the house so it might have 'pinged' while he was in his apartment.



Also, you really believe that someone who just committed this crime is going back to the crime scene a few hours later? Even if it was the actual knife surely you don't think that's really possible do you? Especially since the guy all but had a PHD in criminology. Personally, in my opinion I don't think that is likely at all.

Again, just so everyone knows I am not saying he's innocent. I just see plenty of reasonable doubt that I cannot say for sure 100% without reasonable doubt that BK committed this crime on his own or by himself.

Just my opinion.

Oh, yes, he did go back.

BK was curious if the murders had been discovered so he circled back for a little looky loo. Just couldn’t help himself.

That all but had a PHD is what caught him, imo. Overconfidence blurs out the risk.

[...]
“He was talking about genealogy, because I was talking about 23andMe, because my sister had just did all that. And then he brought up something similar in his studies that had to do with being able to catch criminals because of their relative’s DNA….”
[...]
Investigators determined the knife was a “Ka-Bar” knife, with the United States Marine Corps insignia on it. That also stuck out in past conversations Martinez shared with Kohberger.

“He would talk about the military. He was interested in my military service,” he said.
[...]

Bryan Kohberger’s life under the radar: Walking in the footsteps of an alleged mass murderer

Lehighvalleylive.com partnered with the Law&Crime Network in the network’s weeks-long investigation into the life of the former DeSales, NCC student before the murders.

www.lehighvalleylive.com

[...]
After the bodies were discovered, authorities reviewed surveillance video and saw the suspect's white Hyundai Elantra go by the victims' house three times, before entering the area for a fourth time at 4:04 a.m., according to the documents. Police said they traced the car's travel that night back to Pullman, Washington, where Kohberger lived.
[...]
Kohberger's phone was tracked heading to Moscow before the attack, but the phone was off from 2:47 a.m. to 4:48 a.m., which "is consistent with Kohberger attempting to conceal his location during the quadruple homicide," the affidavit said.
He also returned to the area of the house where the four students were killed just after 9 a.m., about five hours after the murders, based on phone records, the affidavit also showed.
[...]

Idaho college murders: As Kohberger admits to the brutal crime, here's the full timeline of events

Now, Bryan Kohberger has admitted to the gruesome murders and pleaded guilty, after spending more than two years maintaining his innocence.

abc7.com

all imo

 

[CKS]

This guy isn’t a CAST expert working this case. He has no access to the data, nor access to the device itself.

All MOO

Nobody claimed he was. You asked where I got the 27 mile radius from so I responded.

He does not have to have access to any case date to make the point that the the 12 pings from the tower could be up to a 27 mile radius.

No offense but I trust what he says over what you claim.

Ben Levitan is one of the most sought after legal expert witnesses in multiple telephone and data technological areas.

A proven authority, Levitan’s career has spanned more than 25 years in the field of cellular communication and includes 27 patents in cellular technology innovations.

Levitan is an extraordinary asset to attorneys seeking case assistance in the fields of wireless, cellular, PCS and telephony. He is certified as a testifying expert in Federal and State courts.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I will agree to disagree that it is normal to make a 5000 mile round trip over Christmas break. I still believe this trip was arranged because BK had committed a quadruple homicide and knew LE was on the lookout for a white Elantra and that he had absolutely no intention of returning to Pullman.

MOO

Edited to add; why wouldn't his folks fly him home for the holidays if they wanted him there?

Many people drive home because they need a car while they are home. A month is a very long time to be without a car when you live in rural America, like the Poconos. You can't go anywhere unless you have a vehicle. If his parents worked or they didn't have a number of vehicles at home, he would be confined to the home or the nearby trails and that's it. The Poconos isn't like NYC. It's unlikely he could even go to the grocery store without a car.

MOO.

 

[Megnut]

I think the argument isn't that, because he drove home, it proves he commit the crimes. But rather, that he drove home isn't  inconsistent with culpability.

No one is suggesting he invented going home out of nowhere or that driving home, in and of itself, is some kind mixed-metaphor smoking red flag. It's that he took advantage of the convenient situation (going home at the semester's end) to get himself and his car sequestered in another state, far away from Moscow.

We'll maybe never know if he was ever planning to return and whether, if he did return, if he'd have brought the great white Elantra with him. I doubt it. To either part. IMO he put Moscow in the rear view mirror.

JMO

 

[MadMcGoo]

RANDOM REMINDER:

I'll keep it short and sweet.

- There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree with other members.
- There's no need to respond to every post.
- Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and members are expected to respect that.
- When posting, adding a "JMO", "IMO", "I think", or something of the like helps other readers to distinguish between what is fact and what is simply your opinion.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.
Mad

 

[Nila Aella]

Oh, yes, he did go back.

BK was curious if the murders had been discovered so he circled back for a little looky loo. Just couldn’t help himself.

That all but had a PHD is what caught him, imo. Overconfidence blurs out the risk.

[...]
“He was talking about genealogy, because I was talking about 23andMe, because my sister had just did all that. And then he brought up something similar in his studies that had to do with being able to catch criminals because of their relative’s DNA….”
[...]
Investigators determined the knife was a “Ka-Bar” knife, with the United States Marine Corps insignia on it. That also stuck out in past conversations Martinez shared with Kohberger.

“He would talk about the military. He was interested in my military service,” he said.
[...]

Bryan Kohberger’s life under the radar: Walking in the footsteps of an alleged mass murderer

Lehighvalleylive.com partnered with the Law&Crime Network in the network’s weeks-long investigation into the life of the former DeSales, NCC student before the murders.

www.lehighvalleylive.com

[...]
After the bodies were discovered, authorities reviewed surveillance video and saw the suspect's white Hyundai Elantra go by the victims' house three times, before entering the area for a fourth time at 4:04 a.m., according to the documents. Police said they traced the car's travel that night back to Pullman, Washington, where Kohberger lived.
[...]
Kohberger's phone was tracked heading to Moscow before the attack, but the phone was off from 2:47 a.m. to 4:48 a.m., which "is consistent with Kohberger attempting to conceal his location during the quadruple homicide," the affidavit said.
He also returned to the area of the house where the four students were killed just after 9 a.m., about five hours after the murders, based on phone records, the affidavit also showed.
[...]

Idaho college murders: As Kohberger admits to the brutal crime, here's the full timeline of events

Now, Bryan Kohberger has admitted to the gruesome murders and pleaded guilty, after spending more than two years maintaining his innocence.

abc7.com

all imo

The second article is from November 2023.
There is a lot more information now, particularly from the last hearing.

JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

I think the argument isn't that, because he drove home, it proves he commit the crimes. But rather, that he drove home isn't  inconsistent with culpability.

No one is suggesting he invented going home out of nowhere or that driving home, in and of itself, is some kind mixed-metaphor smoking red flag. It's that he took advantage of the convenient situation (going home at the semester's end) to get himself and his car sequestered in another state, far away from Moscow.

We'll maybe never know if he was ever planning to return and whether, if he did return, if he'd have brought the great white Elantra with him. I doubt it. To either part. IMO he put Moscow in the rear view mirror.

JMO

Yeah. So driving home is absolutely something I would expect him to do. He knows they're looking for a white Hyundai, and he's not going to leave that sitting around if he doesn't have to. Especially considering there may be evidence inside (he was apparently spotted cleaning it by surveillance teams).

That being said, despite the significant distance between Idaho and Pennsylvania, there are legitimate reasons why a college student would decide to do something like that.

So this doesn't prove that he's the killer, but it's consistent.

 

[jepop]

As for the DNA it was touch or transfer DNA which is NOTHING. If you use that DNA to lean towards guilt then you have to give equal weight to the LACK OF VICTIM DNA in his ca

Epithelial cell DNA, a single source full profile, on the the use point of a knife sheathe found in the same bed where two people were stabbed to death is not nothing, I assure you.

<modsnip: personalizing>