Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #200

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  • #1,101
How is it important? Did one of Libby's female cousins kill the girls? Or her grandmother? Does anyone really believe that?

It is total deflection to point attention away from the man who has already admitted to being there on that bridge on that afternoon. IMO
I hate to think either side in a trial like this is playing fast and loose with facts to get a high-profile win. If the P cheats and it turns out they had it wrong all along, an innocent accused suffers and a killer is still free. The good news is I don’t see the cops conniving to frame a poor innocent drug store employee. The investigation has been dogged by mistakes and red herrings, but no cheating. (Purely IMHO.)

The D is visibly playing fast and loose. Those Franks memoranda. That bit about the “untested” hair in the opening statement. Any trick in the book will do to befuddle one or two credulous, uncritical jurors.

This is a vision of their job that I do not share. RA is entitled to a serious, sober, critical examination of the case against him. He does not deserve a 50 / 50 or better chance to walk free regardless of the likelihood he murdered those two girls.

Would I feel differently in his shoes? Yes, but that’s irrelevant. I don’t want to be convicted of the murders of two young girls. That would certainly be true were I innocent. But it would still be true if I’m guilty. We need the system to identify and punish the guilty. It is society’s needs that matter.

Cheap stunts designed to mislead and distort have no place. What is happening here is wrong.
 
  • #1,102
It's their job. It looks like they're certainly making an impression on the local Fox News channel. It's all about clicks and revenue generated and the defense knows that. They've got Fox now breathlessly reporting on the mysterious unidentified hair found in Libby's hand.

They only have to convince 1 juror.

Lots of publicity and conspiracy theories during the trial also makes it potentially easier to win on appeal. They're playing to the potential jury pool that will hear an appeal several years from now.
Seems NBC has also jumped on the bandwagon regarding the hair...
NBC NEWS

Oct. 18, 2024
By Erik Ortiz and Tim Stelloh


U.S. NEWS

Delphi murder trial: Richard Allen used power and fear to kill the teen victims, prosecutors say in their opening statement​

Allen is charged in the 2017 murders of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14. His lawyers proclaimed his innocence during his trial in Carroll County, Indiana.

<<snip>>

"He also said that a strand of hair found on Abby's fingers — evidence that was not made public in the case — is not from Allen or the girls and that testing should be done to see if it matches one of the girls' relatives."

JMO
 
  • #1,103
I suppose the courts allow that evidence to be presented, but in every trial, the other side is also allowed to poke holes at the evidence with their own expert - so calling an expert to say 'your expert says the toolmarks match. I believe they don't' would be permitted.

IMO
Yes, we have an adversarial justice system.
The legal framework of the United States is commonly referred to as an adversarial system. Based on English common law, it established normative procedures that mediate conflicts between opposing parties, with a goal of minimizing the impact of governmental actions on entrenched personal rights.
 
  • #1,104
So that they can show a jury that they know exactly who it belongs to, and that that person is not a suspect in the murders.

MOO
Which, in any investigation, should have been thoroughly tested to find out who it belonged to in 2017, not 2024. JMO
 
  • #1,105
@RANCH Courts have considered toolmark analysis to be valid in the past, but the legal community has begun to question it in recent years. Maryland courts in particular. DNA, as far as I know, is still considered very reliable.

I made a post some time ago on it that contains a couple law journal articles on jurisdictional trends questioning toolmark reliability. I've linked it below should you be interested in reading further.

Sadly it's behind a paywall for me.

I'll look further on my own.
 
  • #1,106
Which, in any investigation, should have been thoroughly tested to find out who it belonged to in 2017, not 2024. JMO
With none of the family members being suspects and albied elsewhere? And the hoodie being borrowed from that family? And the victim having just spent the night at that family's house and being driven in their car?

A family match in those circumstances is enough to not pursue further. Especially when they have a male on video and audio committing the crime.

An investigation is not a bottomless money pit. They could account for the hair, they moved on.

MOO
 
  • #1,107
Any trick in the book will do to befuddle one or two credulous, uncritical jurors.
I heard this elsewhere today.

However, I think that's why jury selection is so critical, and prosecution takes a long time. Plus, the jury members meet and hash out every single part of the evidence as a group.

Also, I want to hear the official forensic analyst talk about the hair, before I believe what the defense says.

JMO
 
  • #1,108
I haven't been able to follow closely due to real life preventing me from doing so. I love that the Jurors are allowed to ask questions and from what I have read, they are very engaged and asking good ones.

Has anyone found out what the deposition was all about where Anna W. was deposed by defense after the 3 day hearing? Is there a link to it? TIA

All MOO.
Not sure what the deposition was about, but apparently there’s something in there that the D will give as an Offer of Proof of third party actor(s) during the trial that is “new”, something they did not have during the 3 day hearing. I don’t have the link handy, but it is Trial Day One podcast by TMS at about the 1hr 42 min mark.
MOO
Ed: time stamp on video
 
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  • #1,109
  • #1,110
Sadly it's behind a paywall for me.

I'll look further on my own.
I linked it for the law review journal articles at the bottom. The article wasn't paywalled earlier, so I apologize for that. I also found some case law on the issue I had stored away. The concurring opinion here is how the D.C. Circuit views toolmark analysis now.

 
  • #1,111
With none of the family members being suspects and albied elsewhere? And the hoodie being borrowed from that family? And the victim having just spent the night at that family's house and being driven in their car?

A family match in those circumstances is enough to not pursue further. Especially when they have a male on video and audio committing the crime.

An investigation is not a bottomless money pit. They could account for the hair, they moved on.

MOO
They had no idea who killed the girls for 5 years, testing the only dna they have on scene completely and as thorough as possible is the most obvious thing they should have done, yes.

Nobody was cleared. JMO
 
  • #1,112
If you want to place a member on "IGNORE," click on their username. A box will pop up. Look at the bottom of that box and click on "IGNORE."
 
  • #1,113
I linked it for the law review journal articles at the bottom. The article wasn't paywalled earlier, so I apologize for that. I also found some case law on the issue I had stored away. The concurring opinion here is how the D.C. Circuit views toolmark analysis now.

Thank you very much. I've already found some information that I find interesting and will keep reading.

I don't feel that toolmark evidence will reach the level of DNA. That said if it can tell us the make and model of a firearm and that it matches the defendants gun then I'll still consider it to be valuable evidence. JMO.
 
  • #1,114
I hate to think either side in a trial like this is playing fast and loose with facts to get a high-profile win. If the P cheats and it turns out they had it wrong all along, an innocent accused suffers and a killer is still free. The good news is I don’t see the cops conniving to frame a poor innocent drug store employee. The investigation has been dogged by mistakes and red herrings, but no cheating. (Purely IMHO.)

The D is visibly playing fast and loose. Those Franks memoranda. That bit about the “untested” hair in the opening statement. Any trick in the book will do to befuddle one or two credulous, uncritical jurors.

This is a vision of their job that I do not share. RA is entitled to a serious, sober, critical examination of the case against him. He does not deserve a 50 / 50 or better chance to walk free regardless of the likelihood he murdered those two girls.

Would I feel differently in his shoes? Yes, but that’s irrelevant. I don’t want to be convicted of the murders of two young girls. That would certainly be true were I innocent. But it would still be true if I’m guilty. We need the system to identify and punish the guilty. It is society’s needs that matter.

Cheap stunts designed to mislead and distort have no place. What is happening here is wrong.
Honestly, I respect what the defense is doing here. It frustrates the hell out of me of course, but they're the arguments I'd expect them to make in order to discredit the prosecution case. If you can't win with facts, stretch them as much as you can. Mislead, misdirect, confuse.

Let's throw out a scenario that an officer bizarrely unholstered his gun, cycled a round, and left it there. It works in theory, because (if I'm not mistaken), the sheriff's department does use the same caliber ammunition that was found at the scene.

Let's plant the seed that the investigation was sloppy, by implying that foreign hair was found in Libby's hand. That works because a hair was in fact found, albeit apparently female and almost certainly unrelated to the girls' killer.

Both of those are stretches, especially the former, but that's nothing like the stretch they're making by suggesting that the girls were removed from the scene, murdered, and bizarrely returned. This one I don't like, because very few people would fall for it, as it's as crazy as laughable. That one does work on some level though, as they can claim that searchers should have seen their bodies that night.

Yes, the burden is on the prosecution. But the defense has to do all they can to prevent them from reaching that burden. I'm sure as things progress they'll be able to get some legitimate shots, in addition to the more outlandish attempts at that.
 
  • #1,115
They had no idea who killed the girls for 5 years, testing the only dna they have on scene completely and as thorough as possible is the most obvious thing they should have done, yes.

Nobody was cleared. JMO

The only DNA? RL's search warrant described hairs and fibers found at the crime scene.
 
  • #1,116
Not sure what the deposition was about, but apparently there’s something in there that the D will give as an Offer of Proof of third party actor(s) during the trial that is “new”, something they did not have during the 3 day hearing. I don’t have the link handy, but it is Trial Day One podcast by TMS at about the 1hr 42 min mark.
MOO
Ed: time stamp on video


Thank you. Sounds interesting!!
 
  • #1,117
This thread is closed. Please continue RIGHT HERE
 
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