Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #200

[susiQ]

I kept being told about the brilliance of the D.

JMO



I hope someday an innocently accused individual will get them! JMHO

I guess I’m just tired. I hope someone who has been falsely accused of something they did not do is blessed with a team like Rozzi and Baldwin. Better? Glad you had some fun at my expense.

 

[iamshadow21]

I have medium to long hair as well and although have found it on clothing for sure I can 100% say I have never had any of it, whether one or more, wrap around a finger or fingers when putting on long sleeved clothing or short.

However, I have caught hair if I'm zipping from the back.

That is whether it is straight, wavy or
curly.

JMOE = Just My Own Experience.

Some of us shed more than others. I certainly do since I hit forty, but I have a very good friend with colouration very similar to the German girls (ash blonde, slightly coarse wavy hair) who I've known since high school and she leaves hair wherever she goes. Always has done. She's got plenty of it! She takes good care of it! It's just her natural shed level.

Also, a piece of clothing that goes on over or covers the head is going to be more likely to retain hairs than one that doesn't, just because of friction.

MOO

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I believe it was never reported that it was a handful. I have only heard of a single hair with root, thus far.

IMO

Mea culpa.

 

[Warwick7]

There was no rush to test the families dna again.

Many have posted the links that family members over the years have offered their dna. The grandmother even stated to the court she provided a sample of her own hair several days ago for dna analysis. Patty testified she had done this a few times over the years. She is not the only one to say this.

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/grandma-ill-be-okay-libby-germans-grandmother-recalls-day-girls-disappeared-on-delphi-trail/

 

[Spartygirl]

Something I've often thought about....I know all my husband's jackets, coats, hats, even his jean etc...

If my husband did this horrific thing, if I was looking at the news and saw that picture of that man on the bridge. I would know instantly it was him.

First it would be shock, then confusion then fear.....

That said, I would still know it was him. Wonder what went thru his wife's mind?.....

Right?!?!?!?

Just from experience and some training, a lot of enablers are in denial and fear, so there's that. JMO

Otherwise, I have no idea about KA.

 

[sunshineray]

Well, they didn’t test it for DNA which should have been done 7 years ago. My point is, not testing it is just another failure in this investigation which the D was only too happy to show. MOO.

It sounds like to me it was tested for DNA, probably the only DNA it could be tested for, mitochondrial DNA, only passed down from females. Sounds like it was most likely a piece of hair with no root attached. The only kind of DNA extracted from hair minus the root, at the moment, is mitochondrial but I think the tech is moving fast, so maybe changing soon? Mitochondrial DNa can be used to identify a family relation but not down to an individual identification.

Mitochondrial DNA in forensic use - PMC

Genetic analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) has always been a useful tool for forensic geneticists, mainly because of its ubiquitous presence in biological material, even in the absence of nuclear DNA. Sequencing, however, is not a skill that is ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Cedars]

Yes.
The sheriff said he was stopping the search, but the search continued with friends and family.

The Delphi town Sheriff who testified was not in charge of the search. He was helping out because these were Delphi children. He said he personally went home at around 2 am.

The Bridge is outside Delphi city limits. The Carroll County Sheriff was in charge.

February 14, 2017 story:

MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

Two 13-year-old Carroll County girls are missing after they were dropped off to go hiking Monday afternoon.

www.wrtv.com

"Carroll County Sheriff Toby Leazenby said ... Crews searched for the missing teens into the night, but because of the dark, the search was slowed around midnight. Crews will regroup and continue their search efforts first thing in the morning. "

Also, the Prosecution is currently presenting their case. Their case has nothing to do with what time, or was the search 'called off'.

That issue is the preoccupation of the defense. So the defense will have to call witnesses about when/whether the search was 'called off'. The defense won't present their case for, probably, weeks.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

No.
We all get the point. A classic defense strategy.
What we don’t get is why the defense attorneys didn’t cobble together a defense of this type a year ago instead of fabricating fiction and wasting time and money.
Also, why do they still spout out half-truths and try and play smoke and mirrors. There was an honorable way to defend RA, they have chosen not to do that.
For me, I don’t believe a word they say.

All my opinion

Agree.

 

[iamshadow21]

It sounds like to me it was tested for DNA, probably the only DNA it could be tested for, mitochondrial DNA, only passed down from females. Sounds like it was most likely a piece of hair with no root attached. The only kind of DNA extracted from hair minus the root, at the moment, is mitochondrial but I think the tech is moving fast, so maybe changing soon? Mitochondrial DNa can be used to identify a family relation but not down to an individual identification.

Mitochondrial DNA in forensic use - PMC

Genetic analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) has always been a useful tool for forensic geneticists, mainly because of its ubiquitous presence in biological material, even in the absence of nuclear DNA. Sequencing, however, is not a skill that is ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

They've been able to get nuclear DNA from rootless hair for about the last six years. I linked to a paper further back on the thread. It's published a year after Abby and Libby were killed.

MOO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Some of us shed more than others. I certainly do since I hit forty, but I have a very good friend with colouration very similar to the German girls (ash blonde, slightly coarse wavy hair) who I've known since high school and she leaves hair wherever she goes. Always has done. She's got plenty of it! She takes good care of it! It's just her natural shed level.

Also, a piece of clothing that goes on over or covers the head is going to be more likely to retain hairs than one that doesn't, just because of friction.

MOO

I have to agree, that I shed hair, my children, foster children, friends, family, dogs, and guests, shed hair (fur) to an absolute absurd degree- seriously- everyone who comes to my house or lives in it should be just bald based purely on the amount of hair that gets vacuumed, swept, swiftered and dusted- I have no doubt about a person’s ability to both shed and transfer hair!

However, I do have to pause and think about the number of times that I’ve randomly had hair on my hands, my kids’ hands- or any close kin or friends hands- in my world it just doesn’t really happen- (maybe I’m really sheltered)

But while my and my kids’ and their friends’ hair IS EVERYWHERE- it’s not on my hands or person, best I can tell, especially if I was walking in the woods or had just been through something traumatic

To the point- as a juror, human hair on a victim’s hand is a big deal and even if it’s spurious, I’d want to know the origin- especially if the accused wasn’t identified for a significant period of time

At the beginning of the investigation it would seem important (to me at least) to identify the origin of the hair…
Moo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Yes, the science is always only as good as the examiner. The examiner is either right or wrong. Probability doesn't work with toolmark analysis like with DNA, where probability can be measured to billions of degrees of certainty.

This report is a good read on toolmark analysis.

PCAST Releases Report on Forensic Science in Criminal Courts

President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology recommends actions to strengthen forensic science and promote its more rigorous use in the courtroom.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

Thanks for the link. I found this interesting.

PCAST concluded that two important gaps warranted the group’s attention: (1) the need for clarity about the scientific standards for the validity and reliability of forensic methods and (2) the need to evaluate specific forensic methods to determine whether they have been scientifically established to be valid and reliable.

Haven't courts already established the validity and reliability of DNA and toolmark evidence? And the courts only allow whats considered to be valid forensic evidence?

PCAST Releases Report on Forensic Science in Criminal Courts

President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology recommends actions to strengthen forensic science and promote its more rigorous use in the courtroom.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

 

[SouthEnd]

Thanks for the link. I found this interesting.

Haven't courts already established the validity and reliability of DNA and toolmark evidence? And the courts only allow whats considered to be valid forensic evidence?

PCAST Releases Report on Forensic Science in Criminal Courts

President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology recommends actions to strengthen forensic science and promote its more rigorous use in the courtroom.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

I suppose the courts allow that evidence to be presented, but in every trial, the other side is also allowed to poke holes at the evidence with their own expert - so calling an expert to say 'your expert says the toolmarks match. I believe they don't' would be permitted.

IMO

 

[sunshineray]

They've been able to get nuclear DNA from rootless hair for about the last six years. I linked to a paper further back on the thread. It's published a year after Abby and Libby were killed.

MOO

I thought that was at best hit or miss and success depended on having more than one hair to work with? The DNA tech has been going leaps and bounds though. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

 

[Cedars]

I thought that was at best hit or miss and success depended on having more than one hair to work with? The DNA tech has been going leaps and bounds though. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

In the Asha degree case, a single hair found on her belongings has become crucial. It has been traced to a person using genetic geneology.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

The Delphi town Sheriff who testified was not in charge of the search. He was helping out because these were Delphi children. He said he personally went home at around 2 am.

The Bridge is outside Delphi city limits. The Carroll County Sheriff was in charge.

February 13, 2017 story:

MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

Two 13-year-old Carroll County girls are missing after they were dropped off to go hiking Monday afternoon.

www.wrtv.com

"Carroll County Sheriff Toby Leazenby said ... Crews searched for the missing teens into the night, but because of the dark, the search was slowed around midnight. Crews will regroup and continue their search efforts first thing in the morning. "

Also, the Prosecution is currently presenting their case. Their case has nothing to do with what time, or was the search 'called off'.

That issue is the preoccupation of the defense. So the defense will have to call witnesses about when/whether the search was 'called off'. That won't happen for, probably, weeks.

JMO

Defense is laying groundwork to say there was an opportunity that night to smuggle the girls to the CS have an Odinist ritual, and kill them with out searchers seeing them because official search was called off at 2am.

This isnt so.

Time of Death - they were killed where they were found.
IIRC the State has said they were dead before 4pm 2/13/17.

In addition it was only official seachers that stopped until morning, community searchers were still everywhere all through the night.

 

[photographer4]

I can provide a link showing the P did spend 20k on genealogy testing. It does not specify it was for this hair, but common sense would say it was.

What would be more important to test than hair found in a victim's hand?

And Kelsi has said that she gave them her DNA several times starting in 2017.

Besides, they could ONLY know it was female hair if it was DNA tested . And they could only know it was familial DNA if it was genealogy tested. So we know it was tested.

Just jumping off your post about the dna testing of the hair… why did the P spend 20 grand on genealogy testing at all when Cece Moore apparently offered her services free of charge on this case?

This article asserts that her help was declined by Le. For those who do not know who Cece Moore is, I’ll link to that below as well…

Inconsistencies and Controversy Emerge as Richard Allen’s Delphi Trial Begins

the two infamous composite sketches, which were instrumental in generating over 100,000 tips, will not be shown to the jury.

www.logansportpress.com

How Your Family Tree Could Catch a Killer

Genetic genealogists like CeCe Moore are cracking cold cases and transforming policing. As DNA analysis redefines ancestry and anonymity, what knowledge should we be permitted to unlock?

www.newyorker.com

 

[iamshadow21]

I thought that was at best hit or miss and success depended on having more than one hair to work with? The DNA tech has been going leaps and bounds though. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

It's essentially an ad, but it's being done. And I assume that they're getting relatively high success rates if they're marketing it, but MOO.

DNA From Rootless Hairs - Bode Technology

bodetech.com

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Well, it's up to the jury at this point. They seem to be a great jury asking excellent questions. I feel confident they will be able to see what's true and what's not.

As always, JMO.

I haven't been able to follow closely due to real life preventing me from doing so. I love that the Jurors are allowed to ask questions and from what I have read, they are very engaged and asking good ones.

Has anyone found out what the deposition was all about where Anna W. was deposed by defense after the 3 day hearing? Is there a link to it? TIA

All MOO.

 

[AugustWest]

Thanks for the link. I found this interesting.

Haven't courts already established the validity and reliability of DNA and toolmark evidence? And the courts only allow whats considered to be valid forensic evidence?

PCAST Releases Report on Forensic Science in Criminal Courts

President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology recommends actions to strengthen forensic science and promote its more rigorous use in the courtroom.

obamawhitehouse.archives.gov

@RANCH Courts have considered toolmark analysis to be valid in the past, but the legal community has begun to question it in recent years. Maryland courts in particular. DNA, as far as I know, is still considered very reliable.

I made a post some time ago on it that contains a couple law journal articles on jurisdictional trends questioning toolmark reliability. I've linked it below should you be interested in reading further.

Post in thread 'Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #192'

Aug 15, 2024

I think he's guilty MOO. but the argument would be racking a gun and an unspent bullet coming out is going to be argued as junk science, I personally don't know if it's scientifically accurate or some sort of pseudo science like handwriting analysis or something, if someone has a good article I would like to read it

@KSwizzle

Here is an article that discusses the issue:

Ballistics experts can't testify that recovered bullets match firearms, Md. high court rules

The field of firearms identification is not reliable enough to allow expert testimony linking crime scene bullets to specific guns, Maryland's top court ruled.

thedailyrecord.com

I have a U.S. government study linked somewhere that shows some...

• AugustWest

• 

 

[shonyakay]

There are details about the hair that are unknown to us at this time.

Cicero described Abby as wearing a large dark sweatshirt.

I would not not describe the jacket Abby is seen wearing in the High Bridge picture as a large dark sweatshirt. It looks like a gray sweater jacket imo.

Kelsi mentioned that she let Abby borrow a jacket of hers and that Libby took a sweater/jacket of hers (Libby's) that Libby had left in her car previously.

Whether Abby had on Kelsi's jacket when found or possibly Libby"s sweatshirt, either could have caused secondary hair transfer to Abby's hand.

Secondary hair transfer would be even more easy if clothing items were wet when touched.