Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[tlcya]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
I feel for those in the courtroom. I imagine how traumatizing those crime scene photos were to have to see

 

[mrjitty]

Just thinking back to the defense’s opening, and the description of the crime scene today.

The defense attorney also suggested the girls may have gone up an access road, gotten into another vehicle and were killed elsewhere before being taken back to where their bodies were discovered near Deer Creek.

Blood on trees. Blood on and around their bodies. Ground “saturated with blood.”

Nope, he killed them right there.

State, defense deliver opening statements in Delphi murders trial

DELPHI, Ind. – Opening statements have wrapped up in the Delphi murders case, with the prosecution and defense revealing their respective strategies to jurors. Richard Allen faces four counts of mu…

fox59.com

Also - SC saw a man who looked like he had slaughtered a pig - per Nick's opening.

Slowly the hoax of the last 18 months is being revealed.

MOO

 

[gremlin444]

Further details from WISH-TV's Kyla Russell in her replies to her original tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848399439087514109

So, very long branches if they are 2-3 times the size of Libby.

In reply to someone asking her specifically what parts of Abby's clothes appeared damp she said:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848405594291511510

 

[steeltowngirl]

I've always respected your ideas. I can see no way this whole thing plays out according the the P's timeline theory. Can you make it work?

I had once considered that the girls may have left with someone(s) and returned (alive) much later, then were killed. We learned during the 3-day hearing that Libby’s phone didn’t leave the area. Since we now know the girls were killed where they were found, I don’t see how killers could return in the darkness of night to the exact spot the phone had been left many hours earlier in daytime.

The above is just one of the timeline obstacles that I’ve pondered. I find the PCA timeline to be credible, but also am looking forward to the full explanation of the timeline, as the trial proceeds.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think like building a camp fire with large branches. Lying crisscross supports the branch on top of it.
I don’t buy into the ritual theory.
Moo..

I haven't followed this case in a long time. I didn't even know there was a ritual theory.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Also - SC saw a man who looked like he had slaughtered a pig - per Nick's opening.

Slowly the hoax of the last 18 months is being revealed.

MOO

The defense has perpetrated such a fraud.

—they declared in the original FM that there was a curious lack of blood at the crime scene. LIE! Absolutely on the back of these precious children, whose blood saturated the ground and their clothes, and splattered on to trees, an absolute lie. A lie most vile.
—they claim that SC never described the man walking as “muddy and bloody” implying he was just an ordinary guy taking a walk. No she didn’t say bloody, she said “like he had just slaughtered a pig”. Oh….that makes it better! Vile vile people.

There are so many more examples of this from the defense, these are just some of the most recent. It blows my mind that people, seeing the lies, can defend this.
Again, I will say, there was an honorable way to defend RA, but this defense team has chosen not to do it.

My opinion

 

[tlcya]

Most recently, McLeland noted, Tobin was not permitted to testify in a murder trial in Marion County after a judge ruled, “The witness (Mr. Tobin) was being called by the defense to testify only as to the shortcomings of firearms examination in general. This witness has not tested or reviewed any of the evidence in this cause.”

The Defense does have an expert in firearms examination on their witness list, McLeland stated. That witness, Dr. Eric Warren, is a member of AFTE and hold, or has held, leadership positions within AFTE
Delphi double murder trial weeks away - Carroll County Comet

more info regarding Mr. William Tobin and his qualifications or lack thereof. Can someone tell me why the DT needs TWO experts to refute the State's position on the bullet, one of whom isn't considered to be an "expert" by another IN court? Warren (their other expert) sounds well enough qualified.

 

[Vern]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed due to failure to provide link re Tobin>

I know the State deposed him in September ... but he didn't even view the State's evidence or examine the bullet found at the crime scene or RA's firearm:

2024-09-27 - State Motion In Limine Regarding Defense Witness William Tobin - Richard Allen.pdf

drive.google.com

Interesting to note that the State's Motion also cites precedence with this same individual whereby his 'expert' testimony was not allowed as he had not examined the actual evidence.




And nothing in the Defence's Response that mentions the State having paid this witness or hired him previously.

2024-10-07 - Defense Response to State Motion in Limine Regarding Defense Witness William Tobin - Richard Allen.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[katydid23]

I don't think that's what they are asking. They are OK with the expert telling how the file was cleaned up and enhanced, but not the expert then saying, "and here's what I heard." Unless there are deaf jurors, they should be allowed to hear for themselves and decide what they hear.

As always, JMO.

So why pay the experts to us their skills if thy cannot testify to their results. Can blood splatter experts be told to show pictures of their examinations but not tell the jury what it means in their expert opinions?
Or a medical examiner?

 

[scapa]

Ha! yes. I've also made the same argument in regards to it being completely insane and difficult to remove them, kill them, and then return them to ground zero.

It fails the logical test. It fails the practicality test. It's unfeasible. And now it's refuted by science.

Exactly.

These crimes clearly relied on the element of surprise and higher degree of control enabled by use of weapon(s) and relative isolation, as well as the relationship between the girls.

That the killer would then jeopardize this "success" by moving both girls whilst alive, with all of the risk entailed by getting them into a vehicle and trying to maintain compliance there -- and then return them to a site where a search was visibly being conducted for... what purpose again? Confusion?

No reason why any killer should think logically in the midst of committing a brutal crime, but this "remove/ return" theory fails on far too many levels, being supported by absolutely zero evidence forensically or, so far as we know, cell phone or other geo/ tech markers.

It's an inane theory.

The more likely D case seems simpler: the state argues that BG = kidnapper and most likely killer; and RA = BG, so therefore the kidnapper and killer.

Prove BARD that RA = BG, and further that BG = killer.

I get that sometimes an aggressive D will seek to trouble a case by introducing useful noise, impeaching witnesses, discrediting investigations -- all those options seem open here.

But why bet on a moonshot SOD(s)DI theory that doesn't seem to align with the facts of the case of likely experience of jurors?

Anyway, sounds like a morning of harrowing evidence. My thoughts are with the families, friends and jurors. What an awful series of things to have seen and heard.

 

[BUF]

More than 40 crime scene photos were shown on a large monitor inside of the courtroom. That took 90 minutes before the court broke for recess.

Family, jurors, and the court gallery were visibly emotional as photos of Abby Williams and Libby German were shown.

In the photos, both girls had large lacerations to their throats.

Abby’s body was just a few feet away from Libby’s, according to the images. Abby was shown clothed, while Libby was nude.
……
The second witness called to the stand on Monday was Jason Page. Page is a crime scene investigator in charge of photographing the scene.

He referenced the topography of the crime scene area and the substantial amount of blood found on Libby German and in the area where the girls were found.

The jurors were putting their hands on their heads, squirming, sighing, and turning red.

Richard Allen looked at the photos and was taking notes. He did not show any visible emotion.

Delphi Murders Trial: Jury sees graphic crime scene photos on Day 3 of testimony

 

[Kudzuu]

There's a video on youtube where a media woman walks through the whole area, explaining where everything happened. You'll have to search for it (cant post links from work) pretty sure it was something like retracing bridge guy's steps

Ye.s! That's it. That is what I recall. I'll go look. Thank you.

 

[Justice101]

View attachment 539408

RL's house is the very far east and North of where Abby and Libby were found.

Delphi murder trial: Family friend who found Abby, Libby tells about that day

In second day of testimony in Richard Allen’s trial, witness chokes up, telling the court he couldn’t look at the scene as he waited for police to arrive: ‘I stood there facing away from them'

www.basedinlafayette.com

This from WTHR

“WTHR 13 reports on their noon update.

When showing the crime screen photos this is how the jury reacted.

A jury member was seen taking deep breaths, One put their head down, Multiple visibly shaken, One put hands on top of their head, and One was squirming in their seat.”

Agree, this is the type of thing that will give you nightmares the rest of your life.

Nobody wants to see those... but everyone probably has to to understand the exact nature of the killings.

 

[MassGuy]

Exactly.

These crimes clearly relied on the element of surprise and higher degree of control enabled by use of weapon(s) and relative isolation, as well as the relationship between the girls.

That the killer would then jeopardize this "success" by moving both girls whilst alive, with all of the risk entailed by getting them into a vehicle and trying to maintain compliance there -- and then return them to a site where a search was visibly being conducted for... what purpose again? Confusion?

No reason why any killer should think logically in the midst of committing a brutal crime, but this "remove/ return" theory fails on far too many levels, being supported by absolutely zero evidence forensically or, so far as we know, cell phone or other geo/ tech markers.

It's an inane theory.

The more likely D case seems simpler: the state argues that BG = kidnapper and most likely killer; and RA = BG, so therefore the kidnapper and killer.

Prove BARD that RA = BG, and further that BG = killer.

I get that sometimes an aggressive D will seek to trouble a case by introducing useful noise, impeaching witnesses, discrediting investigations -- all those options seem open here.

But why bet on a moonshot SOD(s)DI theory that doesn't seem to align with the facts of the case of likely experience of jurors?

Anyway, sounds like a morning of harrowing evidence. My thoughts are with the families, friends and jurors. What an awful series of things to have seen and heard.

I think that the most effective argument would have been blaming Ron Logan. He was violent towards women, a couple of those women thought he resembled BG, lied about his alibi, owned numerous knives and firearms, and the murders occurred on his property.

His home was also searched extensively for items connected to the murders.

Obviously Logan didn't do it, but I think accusing him would be way more effective than some of the nonsense they're pushing.

 

[justtrish]

I haven't followed this case in a long time. I didn't even know there was a ritual theory.

This was a theory posed by the defense and during the 3 day hearing they were supposed to present evidence that supports their notion of a 3rd party doing this and they just didn't present evidence that supported their claims and the judge ruled it not admissible. They did have an "expert" that took the stand and there are transcripts of the testimony if you want to read them. In my opinion she was not credible.

Also during the 3 days of pretrial hearings held this summer there was testimony from a state witness that the sticks/branches appeared to be more like "undoing" by the killer.

 

[MiniMoo]

I’m not so worried about the D’s conduct right now.

I don’t care if the General Public is being confused by their strategies.

What I care about is that Jury hears the evidence, doesn’t hear all the “noise” that is happening regarding the media, a hair and whatever else the D tries throw out there.

We now have a Jury seated in a court of law that is hearing actual evidence. They are asking questions. It appears, by their questions, they are committed to doing what is right, wherever right may fall.

If the D is doing something misleading to confuse the JURY, the Prosecution is there, in the moment to counterbalance and bring reality back into focus.

I cannot believe that talking about a hair that belongs to a female relative is still being discussed.

The trial has moved on from the hair. It will either be brought up again by the Defense if it is relevant. It may never see the light of day again.

What matters is the Jury receiving the facts, hearing the evidence, listening to what the D has to say and then deciding.

Thankfully they are not hearing the collateral noise on the outside because IMO it has become a never ending cyclical case of mass rumination that doesn’t serve anybody well.

Just My Opinion

Seems like the jurors have been selected really well.

Observing evidence, facts and being open to what is presented from both sides as well as asking excellent questions, if allowed, is all we could ask for in a jury.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Giancola said one of the girls was nude and the other was clothed when their bodies were located on Feb. 14, 2017.

"Both had large lacerations on their throat," Giancola said. "They both had a substantial amount of blood on their person and underneath."

Delphi double murder trial: Graphic crime scene photos revealed in court

Gruesome crime scene photographs were revealed in court on Monday during the Delphi, Indiana, double murder trial.

abcnews.go.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I had once considered that the girls may have left with someone(s) and returned (alive) much later, then were killed. We learned during the 3-day hearing that Libby’s phone didn’t leave the area. Since we now know the girls were killed where they were found, I don’t see how killers could return in the darkness of night to the exact spot the phone had been left many hours earlier in daytime.

The above is just one of the timeline obstacles that I’ve pondered. I find the PCA timeline to be credible, but also am looking forward to the full explanation of the timeline, as the trial proceeds.

jmo

Thanks; I remember that. It sounded good at the time.

I've read so much everything is blending together. I'm trying to put a timeline on this statement.
Have you seen a time for the interruption and who the interrupter is?

He said Allen was interrupted and forced the girls to cross the creek, where he had them undress before he killed them. He threw their clothes in Deer Creek before casually going home, McLeland said.

McLeland: Richard Allen is ‘Bridge Guy’ - Carroll County Comet

Richard Allen is “Bridge Guy,” Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland told 52 potential jurors Monday. Monday marked the first day of jury selection in the trial of Allen, a Delphi man accused of killing Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. The girls were dropped off at the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

 

[MiniMoo]

None that we know of.

So, no DNA from Richard Allen.

Does anyone know if there was any DNA found at all besides that one strand of female hair?

CTK = Curious To Know

 

[BUF]

Jason Page has been with the Indiana State Police for 24 years and has worked as a detective and member of the SWAT team. He’s been a crime scene investigator for 16 years and estimated he’d been at between 950 and 1,000 crime scenes as a CSI and many more as a detective.

He arrived at the area around 1:30 p.m. on Feb. 14 and met with other crime scene investigators. Page took several photos and walked the jury through each one shown in court.

He described the area where the girls were found as “ground zero”—an approximately 30- to 40 -foot area containing most of the physical evidence.

The terrain is “pretty rough and steep,” he told the court. He showed the jury a map of the area and walked them through the topography. He described how investigators carefully marked the area near ground zero and the path leading to the girls’ bodies. He said investigators searched the scene with metal detectors and recalled a dive team conducting another search.

Page showed photos from the crime scene and described what each one showed.

One photo showed what appeared to be black marks on Libby’s body. Another showed an aerial view of the bodies with Deer Creek in the background. Jurors also saw photos of blood on Libby’s right hand and another of her left hand. Another photo showed a closeup of Libby’s face.

As Giancola had suggested, Page said the area was “saturated” with a large amount of blood on the ground. Blood was also on nearby trees; investigators used a chemical to check trees for additional traces. He also recalled that Abby’s clothes were wet.

“Her clothes were damp. I just remembered the clothes seemed damp,” he recalled.

Notes from the media pool described Page’s testimony as “calm” and almost “mechanical” as he explained what was contained within each image.

Page spoke for about 90 minutes before the court took a break. He resumed his testimony around 1 p.m

https://www.wdtn.com/news/delphi-murders-day-3-of-testimony-includes-graphic-crime-scene-photos/