Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Spartygirl]

That’s right, sorry I couldn’t think of the right word at the time. Signatures. Has the Prosecution addressed that yet?

Detective Cicero addressed in the 3 day hearing.

there a few questions and answers about the branches covering the girls.

Basically, just to cover up the bodies of Libby and Abby--NOTHING MORE

 

[Kudzuu]

He apparently didn’t cut himself, and he had the benefit of an outdoor environment that isn’t conducive to DNA preservation.

Had he not admitted he was there that day, dressed in the same type of clothing as BG, it’s probable no arrest would have ever been made.

Exactly! How can he be so stupid?

 

[SleutherGirl]

To me, it sounds like it was inadvertently stepped on hard, like during the exertion of dragging a dead body and branches.

jmo

But straight down, point down into the dirt. That's odd. A bullet, or at least, the average bullet that I've seen, isn't going to land on its' point and balance like that, not without some kind of force behind it.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

To me, it sounds like it was inadvertently stepped on hard, like during the exertion of dragging a dead body and branches.

jmo

I see. So inadvertently stepped on, point down.

 

[Cedars]

But they do have proof it came from the crime scene, right? There has to be something even if there are no photos.

Does anyone know if there is anything about it definitely being found there even if there are no photos of it being in the ground or removed?

I would think photos of it being recovered would not only provide a timestamp, but also that it was in the ground in comparison to on the ground. Total clarity.

JMO MOO JMT

IMO, police use a photographer to clearly show the crime scene and exactly how bodies, objects, etc, were, before evidence is removed. I've not encountered crime scene photos showing forensic technicians removing every piece of evidence. There could be thousands of pieces of evidence. They have to remove it ASAP, especially outdoors.

Technicians are highly trained and trusted professional who are part of law enforcent. They wear hazmat suits etc and they -only they - remove each piece of evidence so as to avoid damaging it, or contaminating it with their own DNA, etc. Then they bag it into individual evidence bags and label it as to exactly where it came from, exactly when removed and their own initials.

Once back at the lab, using high quality photography with proper lighting etc, the evidence is then photgraphed.

JMO

 

[Kudzuu]

This would be a question for a forensic psychologist. However, in his 2019 press conference, Spt Carter said "We know that this is about power to you".

One could assume that means using the gun to force them 'down the hill", to force them, using the gun to, probably, undress, force them, using the gun, to do other things very violating to young girls...then use the knife (and not drop the knife sheath as allegedly Kohlberger did, which, I believe, was the only source of his DNA at that crime scene).

JMO

Yes and hiding in plain sight. Watching.

 

[Inthedetails]

Exactly! How can he be so stupid?

He was hiding in plain sight.

jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

But they do have proof it came from the crime scene, right? There has to be something even if there are no photos.

Does anyone know if there is anything about it definitely being found there even if there are no photos of it being in the ground or removed?

I would think photos of it being recovered would not only provide a timestamp, but also that it was in the ground in comparison to on the ground. Total clarity.

JMO MOO JMT

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

 

[Inthedetails]

I see. So inadvertently stepped on, point down.

That's my guess. jmo

 

[arielilane]

A brutal. emotional day. 90 minutes of crimescene photos, 42, shown to the jurors. Jurors and family visibly uncomfortable.


Two witnesses took to the stand this morning. DeputyDarren Giancola, a detective for Carroll CountySheriff's Dept.He was the first LEO on scene.Emotional testimony when describing seeing Libby andAbby's bodies.


Giancola: "One was nude, the other was clothed. Bothhad large lacerations to their throats. They both had asubstantial amount of blood on their person andunderneath.”


Prosecutor McLeland asked if life saving measureswere performed on either of the girls, Giancola said."No. It was apparent they were both deceased."


Giancola was crossed by defense attornev Andrew
Baldwin. He was asked to clarify the typography of thearea at the end of the bridge, and where the blood was.He testified to Abby's pants appearing wet.


State calls Jason Page- an ISP CSI.Page was responsible for photographing the crimescene. 42 images were shown of the girl's bodies andthe crime scene.


Page testified to the topography of the area of the crimescene and explained in detail all of the images he tookthat day.His testimony was calm, a bit mechanical and veryexplanatory.


Page cross examined by Brad Rozzi. Rozzi's questions were heated when asking about the integrity of the bullet at the crime scene. Rozzi asked about "the lack" of photos of the bullet itself or any photos/videos of it being removed from the ground.



Page testified to suggesting the state hire a blood spatter expert after the defense became interested in a tree at the crime scene with blood, they said was "placed there."They named it, "F Tree." The defense has argued before they believe the blood was a symbol of sorts.



Page was questioned by Rozzi about DNA and how long it takes to test it from a crime scene. He testified, it depends. "It could take days or weeks to test, but it could be rushed.”



Rozzi began asking questions about why the bullet wasn't photographed once out of the ground by itself. "Wouldn't it be helpful to know that the same cartridge plucked out of the ground was the same to be used in this courtroom?”



Page responded "Yes."He also said, "How this [a bullet] affects this case is not my interest. Anything we see that could be evidence we take a picture of it in place.”



Page testified that his main responsibility was to photograph the crime scene. He was not responsible for moving bodies, deciding what/if DNA should be tested, etc.



State calls Duane Datzman to testify. He was an ISP CSI at the time of the murders. His testimony centered around photos he took at the crime scene from an aerial view in a helicopter and from on the ground.


Datzman testified to finding the bullet at the crime scene between Abby and Libby's bodies.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848464729804505291

Edited: Included several more posts.

 

[Vern]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Here's the details from Todd Click regarding the Defence taking him out of context with their allegations in the Franks Memorandum:

Officer Click - There are two things that I would like to clear up immediately though. Detective Ferency and Detective Murphy were not Rushville cops. Detective Ferency was a detective from the Terre Haute police department that was assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. Detective Murphy was an Indiana state police detective that was also assigned to the FBI joint terrorism task force. So the FBI was associated with the investigation until at least July 2021. Secondly, no one in law enforcement believes Abby and Libby were killed in a ritual sacrifice. That is the defense twisting facts for sensationalism. You can quote me on those two items.

TMS - Some people have suggested that while you disagree with the defense that this was a ritual murder that you have agreement with them on who is responsible. Is that something you can speak to?

Officer Click - Yes, that is accurate.

TMS - Other than the material about the cult angle can you discuss how good a job the defense did discussing the evidence against their suspects?

At the Three Day Hearings we also found out that the "other suspects" that Click refers to were investigated and ruled out - and alibied. Ergo, the Defense's Franks Motion was DENIED.

 

[MassGuy]

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

I care more about chain of custody. It should be logged, bagged, labeled and sealed. If that was done then normal protocol was followed.

Why would there be photographs after the ones of it in the ground?

 

[Betty P]

But they do have proof it came from the crime scene, right? There has to be something even if there are no photos.

Does anyone know if there is anything about it definitely being found there even if there are no photos of it being in the ground or removed?

I would think photos of it being recovered would not only provide a timestamp, but also that it was in the ground in comparison to on the ground. Total clarity.

JMO MOO JMT

Yes, its usually photos. Lots of them. That will come when the evidence techs testify, if Indiana does it the same way as other states. Thats when the lab techs go to the crime scene, put on tyvek suits and gather all the evidence, photograph it, then later test it. I assume they will have detailed chain of custody documentation, too.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Relentlessly -- Defense attorney Brad Rozzi asked Sgt. Page about the cartridge found between the girls that was linked back to a gun owned by Allen.

Rozzi says that unspent bullet is face-down in the ground and the photograph investigators took at the scene doesn't show it in its entirety.

He asked several times why, saying being able to see those markings would be crucial in a case like this

Law enforcement takes stand in Delphi double murder trial

In a *lengthy testimony -- Sgt. Jason Page, a crime scene investigator with ISP -- explained how he photographed the scene and victims.The prosecution -- using

www.wsbt.com

 

[Cedars]

Exactly! How can he be so stupid?

IMO he initially felt confident that no one would suspect him, but one of the people who'd seen him or his car might identify him. So I think he wanted to 'get ahead' of police and clarify, in a casual friendly way, that he was there but hadn't seen anything.

And it worked: the person he talked to didn't have any alarm bells go off, didn't draw attention to him, forgot all about him, I assume. Otherwise, he should have been flagged for another interview.

IMO people just don't believe someone they know could possibly be a killer.

JMO

 

[shonyakay]

This does not mention when the bullet was found at all.

No but Holeman mentioned when it was found when he questioned RA in October 2022. He said they've (LE) had that bullet since February 14th, 2017, the day the girls' bodies were discovered.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

Things that make you say, hmmmm.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

Relentlessly -- Defense attorney Brad Rozzi asked Sgt. Page about the cartridge found between the girls that was linked back to a gun owned by Allen.

Rozzi says that unspent bullet is face-down in the ground and the photograph investigators took at the scene doesn't show it in its entirety.

He asked several times why, saying being able to see those markings would be crucial in a case like this

Law enforcement takes stand in Delphi double murder trial

In a *lengthy testimony -- Sgt. Jason Page, a crime scene investigator with ISP -- explained how he photographed the scene and victims.The prosecution -- using

www.wsbt.com

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't there be magnified photos of the marks on the bullet? From when they make comparison in the lab?

I guess I'm asking why would a photo of the bullet in the ground even be legible enough to see the marks on the bullet? That's what the lab is for.

Sounds like pretty irrelevant questions from the defense.

 

[Deleted member 229974]

But they do have proof it came from the crime scene, right? There has to be something even if there are no photos.

Does anyone know if there is anything about it definitely being found there even if there are no photos of it being in the ground or removed?

I would think photos of it being recovered would not only provide a timestamp, but also that it was in the ground in comparison to on the ground. Total clarity.

JMO MOO JMT

Yep, yep, yep. Me too.

 

[katydid23]

Either he flopped them in a hurry or he was hoping to blame someone else. M00

If you are trying to cover up the bodies you need the branches to stay on top of them. So putting them in cross patterns and V patterns makes them balanced, and more likely to stay put.

If you just toss them willy nilly they are more likely to fall off the sides and they do no good.

Are there experts that can hear better than the average person?

Yes, experts in sound quality and enhancement are much better than the average Joe at hearing video sounds.IMO

I think they are probably going to try and suppress the word 'gun' which some have reported was said by one of the girls.

Which would be interesting, imo. Because why would they care if BG said gun or not? I think they are insisting that RA is not BG, so why do they care what BG said?

Experts testifying about how the audio was cleaned up is one thing, but experts interpreting what they hear is highly subjective, I would think.

The jury should be allowed to listen and decide for themselves what they hear. This is how they handled it in the recent Charlie Adelson trial with a hard-to-hear audio recording, although the two sides did also mutually agree on a transcript for the jurors to see. Maybe they could to that here.

As always, JMO.