Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[Megnut]

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

It was photographed in its original position, likely bagged and labeled, then admitted into an evidence locker before being retrieved and delivered for testing, wherein the bag was opened, the contents then photographed before analysis.

There'd be no reason for an intermediate opening, no reason to photograph it until the seal is broken and analysis began.

Another grave misrepresentation by the Defense to imply some kind of wrong doing when instead actual protocol was followed exactly.

JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

The D expected LE to have visually followed the bullet’s movement from being taken out of the ground and then transported to the lab? How’s that expected to be accomplished, by 24/7 video camera or what? Wow they’re desperately reaching toward the preposterous!

Chain of custody is maintained by a paper trail recording the sequence of custody and transfer to and from the evidence locker, all actions documented in a Chain of Custody Log.

 

[arielilane]

@angelaganote

Just an emphasis here. What is typed here is fromLE investigator who said he personally did not know if a rape kit was done. If he was not in the room he can’t say yes there was one done. We are taking you through what is happening witness by witness. Also, since we can’t have cameras or audio detailing everything this is coming to our team through multiple humans writing and listening and then sharing their notes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848468708458410279

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't there be magnified photos of the marks on the bullet? From when they make comparison in the lab?

I guess I'm asking why would a photo of the bullet in the ground even be legible enough to see the marks on the bullet? That's what the lab is for.

Sounds like pretty irrelevant questions from the defense.

I’m not following you. I’d say they’re very relevant questions being asked by the defense. IMO

 

[Melted]

No but Holeman mentioned when it was found when he questioned RA in October 2022. He said they've (LE) had that bullet since February 14th, 2017, the day the girls' bodies were discovered.

What law enforcement says during an interrogation holds 0 credibility with me, no offense.

 

[BUF]

Page noted that Libby had with her left hand stretched above her head and her right hand at her side. Blood covered her neck, face, and right leg. Having investigated about 1,000 crime scenes, including roughly 100 involving homicides, Page shared his observations.

Branches covered both girls’ bodies, but a large limb stretched across Libby, from her left shoulder down her torso. Abby, fully clothed, wore a dark blue sweatshirt and lay on her back with her right knee bent slightly, and her right foot tucked under her left leg, Page testified.

Prosecutors showed 40 crime scene photos, including a close-up of Libby’s bloodied face, which accidentally appeared on the screen, prompting gasps from the gallery and family members.

Delphi Murders Trial: Courtroom Gasps as Jury Sees Graphic Photos of 2 Girls’ Throats Cut

Gasps were heard in an Indiana courtroom Monday morning as police showed graphic photos of two Delphi girls, as defendant Richard Allen stands accused of their murders. Sgt. Jason Page from the Indiana State Police arrived at the crime scene on February 14, 2017, and described the roped-off area...

www.crimeonline.com

 

[MrsWatson]

Here's an article I found explaining Chain of Custody. IMO, that bullet was logged and tracked by LE from the moment it was found.

Collecting Evidence​

First, evidence is collected at the crime scene by law enforcement officers, who must document the exact location, condition, and way the evidence was found.

Each piece of evidence is tagged with a unique identifier to prevent mix-ups.

Documenting Evidence​

Detailed records are maintained, including photographs, sketches, and written descriptions. Anyone who handles the evidence must log their involvement.

They keep track of the date, time, and purpose of handling evidence. This meticulous documentation ensures a clear and continuous record of the evidence’s journey.

Storing the Evidence​

Once documented, the evidence is stored in a secure location, such as a police evidence room, with restricted access to prevent tampering or contamination.

Moving the Evidence​

When evidence needs to be moved, whether for testing or transfer to another agency, the transfer must be thoroughly documented. The recipient of the evidence verifies its condition and integrity upon receipt.

Analyzing the Evidence​

Forensic experts may then analyze the evidence in a lab, and the analysis process and results are comprehensively documented.

Presenting the Evidence​

Finally, the evidence is presented in court, often with the testimony of those who handled it.

Any breaks in the chain of custody can be questioned by the defense, potentially leading to the evidence being deemed inadmissible.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

As the photos were being shown in the courtroom, many jurors put their hands on their heads, squirmed, sighed, and turned red as they saw photographs of the girls' bodies. One juror put a hand over their mouth. Some family members had to turn away despite the fact the family had seen the crime scene photos before Monday's testimony.

Special Judge Fran Gull took a longer recess to allow the jury to break after "tough morning."

Photos of Libby's body, the sticks, and blood found in the area were shown in court. The defense questioned investigators on whether they think the sticks may have been placed there by someone. Page said, "It was reasonable to believe it was placed there by a human act."

The third witness called to the stand Monday was Duane Datzman. He was an ISP Crime Scene technician at the time who was also responsible for taking photos of the crime scene.

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 3 | Jury sees graphic crime scene photos

Jurors were shown graphic crime scene photos in an emotional third day of testimony in the Delphi murders trial.

www.wrtv.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I care more about chain of custody. It should be logged, bagged, labeled and sealed. If that was done then normal protocol was followed.

Why would there be photographs after the ones of it in the ground?

There was no CoC unless the P found it later. That's the problem.
Also, in the return on the search warrant items, there is a notation at the bottom of each group that the CoC is on page 2 or page 4. But there is no CoC filed with those docs.

However, the P apparently has 6-12 witnesses lined up to testify.
Chain of Custody witnesses = bottom of pg 10

5.7.24 Richard Allen Motions Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Melted]

Page noted that Libby had with her left hand stretched above her head and her right hand at her side. Blood covered her neck, face, and right leg. Having investigated about 1,000 crime scenes, including roughly 100 involving homicides, Page shared his observations.

Branches covered both girls’ bodies, but a large limb stretched across Libby, from her left shoulder down her torso. Abby, fully clothed, wore a dark blue sweatshirt and lay on her back with her right knee bent slightly, and her right foot tucked under her left leg, Page testified.

Prosecutors showed 40 crime scene photos, including a close-up of Libby’s bloodied face, which accidentally appeared on the screen, prompting gasps from the gallery and family members.

Delphi Murders Trial: Courtroom Gasps as Jury Sees Graphic Photos of 2 Girls’ Throats Cut

Gasps were heard in an Indiana courtroom Monday morning as police showed graphic photos of two Delphi girls, as defendant Richard Allen stands accused of their murders. Sgt. Jason Page from the Indiana State Police arrived at the crime scene on February 14, 2017, and described the roped-off area...

www.crimeonline.com

Dbm

 

[FrostedGlass]

Glitter?

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

Eta: Others have suggested this might instead be spatter (glitter being a typo from hurried notes, perhaps).

Datzman said he “kept seeing a glitter” in the leaves not far from the bodies.
“Underneath those leaves,” he testified, “we found a .40-caliber cartridge.”

Crime scene investigators challenged over sticks, unspent round evidence

Lead attorney Andrew Baldwin flatly asserted it was a mistake not to immediately take into evidence the sticks that were strewn across the girls' bodies.

www.indystar.com

 

[ClearAhead]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't there be magnified photos of the marks on the bullet? From when they make comparison in the lab?

I guess I'm asking why would a photo of the bullet in the ground even be legible enough to see the marks on the bullet? That's what the lab is for.

Sounds like pretty irrelevant questions from the defense.

Agree, it’s as if the D was expecting a mobile lab to have been present at the scene to officially record the marks. Problem with that is until it was examined by the lab the markings wouldn’t have been known.

 

[m00c0w]

In the FM, the D said they had three pics of it in the ground but nothing after that. They did find one from the lab but there was nothing in between.

So there was really no visual proof that the bullet found at the scene was the same one that ended up in the lab.
MOO

That’s not chain of custody, though. Thats just wanting extra information that doesn’t exist. Chain of custody would be them extracting the bullet, putting it in an evidence bag, annotating what it was, where it was found and by who, along with signatures and a seal on the bag. From that point forward, if the seal is tampered with without it being signed off on, it becomes a chain of custody issue.

Now, if the allegation is that police were forging evidence logs, bags, chain of custody forms… then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances that has not been even minimally shown to have occurred at this point.

All my opinion.

 

[BUF]

Datzman said he “kept seeing a glitter” in the leaves not far from the bodies.
“Underneath those leaves,” he testified, “we found a .40-caliber cartridge.”

Crime scene investigators challenged over sticks, unspent round evidence

Lead attorney Andrew Baldwin flatly asserted it was a mistake not to immediately take into evidence the sticks that were strewn across the girls' bodies.

www.indystar.com

Oh that’s where the “glitter” came from….thanks!

 

[ClearAhead]

There was no CoC unless the P found it later. That's the problem.
Also, in the return on the search warrant items, there is a notation at the bottom of each group that the CoC is on page 2 or page 4. But there is no CoC filed with those docs.

However, the P apparently has 6-12 witnesses lined up to testify.
Chain of Custody witnesses = bottom of pg 10

5.7.24 Richard Allen Motions Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com

The Chain of Custody Log is a separate record from the search warrant.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The D expected LE to have visually followed the bullet’s movement from being taken out of the ground and then transported to the lab? How’s that expected to be accomplished, by 24/7 video camera or what? Wow they’re desperately reaching toward the preposterous!

Chain of custody is maintained by a paper trail recording the sequence of custody and transfer to and from the evidence locker, all actions documented in a Chain of Custody Log.

I'm not an expert on the subject but I would think someone would have taken a picture of it when they picked it up, before they bagged, labeled, sealed it up. They had a lab picture of it.

We'll see if there are CoC logs for any of the items in question.

 

[shonyakay]

I'm wondering if that may have been caused by being dragged along the ground or something.

Be interesting to know.

JMO MOO JMT

The black marks were placed over the photos by the State to cover private areas of the victim nothing more.

Moderators?

 

[MassGuy]

I'm not an expert on the subject but I would think someone would have taken a picture of it when they picked it up, before they bagged, labeled, sealed it up. They had a lab picture of it.

We'll see if there are CoC logs for any of the items in question.

I’ve only ever heard of photos being taken at the crime scene. The lab one surprised me but maybe the lab does that themselves or something.

That would be an incredible pain in the to take pictures of every step, and I’ve never heard of that being part of protocol.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Chain of Custody Log is a separate record from the search warrant.

Thank you. Maybe I'm missing something?
Page 12 Search Warrant and attached property receipt w/ CoC notation.

Allen search warrant return

www.documentcloud.org

 

[ClearAhead]

That’s not chain of custody, though. Thats just wanting extra information that doesn’t exist. Chain of custody would be them extracting the bullet, putting it in an evidence bag, annotating what it was, where it was found and by who, along with signatures and a seal on the bag. From that point forward, if the seal is tampered with without it being signed off on, it becomes a chain of custody issue.

Now, if the allegation is that police were forging evidence logs, bags, chain of custody forms… then that’s an entirely different set of circumstances that has not been even minimally shown to have occurred at this point.

All my opinion.

Yes. I agree. That fraud occurred, for example the bullet tampered with or switched as part of a conspiracy to frame RA is an entirely different topic from the standard chain of custody routine. Good luck to the D if they plan on entering conspiracy territory based on nothing. MOO