VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #214

[Momofthreeboys]

If he is found guilty and there is an appeal, would the fact that Gull prevented the DA from presenting their evidence regarding the “O” word, be allowed? Especially if Gull isn’t the judge in an appeal. IMO

General reasons for appeal are an unfair trial--often juror misconduct claims, violation of constitutional rights, errors in rulings by the court or incorrect application of the law by the court, defense lawyer ineffectiveness, and insufficient evidence. Just about every criminal found guilty in the US has a right to appeal. Some (wealthy) defendants will have an appeal attorney as part of their defense team right off the bat. Not all appeals are successful. Successful appeals can carry different things: from being sent back to the court and ordered to retry, to the defendant being given the opportunity to a plea bargain, to being remanded back to the lower court for a different sentencing...it just depends on the what grounds were used for the appeal.

 

[Tortoise]

Has it been reported whether Abby's shoe laces were undone or not?

 

[flashy09]

IIRC he didn't live all that far away and perhaps could do so by staying close to wooded areas and away from homes and roads (having been seen once already). It would explain why the State doesn't seem to have footage of his vehicle leaving (though, again iirc, RA said he was aware of a back route, having accidentally done it one time).

If it's true that he was asleep at 6pm, then 1. He was probably exhausted by the events between 2 and 4. 2. May have been sleeping off his hangover. 3. Asleep, he wouldn't have to answer questions.

Wish we could know if RA did laundry that day. And if it was the first and only time he did.

Perhaps at the time, KA could have been aware he fell in the creek (not from the height of the bridge -- from the shoreline -- a bit of truth in every lie); she might have laundered those clothes herself, unaware. Convenient explanation for needing a new phone, too. All speculation on my part, but it seems plausible.

JMO

I'd like to assume that KA would have come forward with a nugget like RA said he fell in the creek and had wet, muddy clothes!

I think it was BW that was asleep at 6 pm.

I don't think RA even risked laundry. I think he got back just before KA and showered, bagged up his clothes, tossed them in a dumpster at CVS the next day or maybe used a commercial laundromat.

 

[ClearAhead]

A second trial means defence can investigate the things they may not have had the money for this time, such as how many groups Dr Walla was in, what posts she made, was she in any groups that were discussing the white van, they could also check BW invoices, bank accounts, or any document that may show he was doing his ATM work to show he was not driving home at time he said he was, plus look at his phone as he mentioned during his testimony he used his phone to work out what time he went home in 2017, they could hire there own blood spatter expert, they could get the expert to test the gun and cartridge, they were severely hampered by lack of funds, second time around they ,ay be able to get more funding to investigate ,more things

BW will not be a suspect. He has an alibi for leaving work at 2:02 an half hour away, impossible that he was on the bridge at 2:13.

How would you suppose the D will get more funding? I bet they wish they could get the $24k back from useless headphone witness. lol

 

[m00c0w]

A second trial means defence can investigate the things they may not have had the money for this time, such as how many groups Dr Walla was in, what posts she made, was she in any groups that were discussing the white van, they could also check BW invoices, bank accounts, or any document that may show he was doing his ATM work to show he was not driving home at time he said he was, plus look at his phone as he mentioned during his testimony he used his phone to work out what time he went home in 2017, they could hire there own blood spatter expert, they could get the expert to test the gun and cartridge, they were severely hampered by lack of funds, second time around they ,ay be able to get more funding to investigate ,more things

Why do you believe they were hampered by a lack of funds? They have a firearms expert they hired that decided to not look at any physical evidence. They paid some obscene amount of money to go to Georgia to get a Facebook photo. They hired a forensic cell phone analyst for something like $24,000 that came to insane conclusions that they ran with, contradicting their previous theories.

If they were going to do this kind of stuff, it’s baffling why they didn’t do it in the first place. They had plenty of time and resources.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

We know that the crime scene looked like from the testimony at trial. He was looking at the same thing.

Two signatures right off the bat were the sticks (especially the ones across their necks), and the fact that Abby was dressed in Libby’s clothes.

Both of those things were not necessary to commit the crime, but they were necessary to the killer.

Now we know that the sticks were just covering them and that could be undoing or literally just trying to cover them to hid them and delay anyone finding them.

The redressing I really am wondering if he had some period of time there that he didn't know what to do. It sounds like this did not go as he had planned for it to. I'm sure what he imagined leading up to this crime was one version and then when he was actually in the moment committing the crime, things didn't go according to plan. Going through the water means now they are wet and cold. Abby's clothing being down by the water might have meant she couldn't get to them so he just said put on these.. or she might have been shivering. I do wonder if he let her redress as another form of control. Be quiet and I won't hurt you. Put these clothes on to try to help calm her or something. That may not be part of his plan at all.

So while I can understand LE saying these were signatures and they are, they literally may not have been part of what he actually intended to do when he set out that day. IF he committed another murder would he need to do this same thing with sticks and redressing to fulfill something he needed? I don't know.

 

[acehard]

I bet they wish they could get the $24k back from useless headphone witness. lol

Woah How does one become a useless headphone witness? Sounds lucrative. Asking for a friend. MOO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

I’m not sure if my bathrooms and window sills have been this clean since procrastinating finals in graduate school- stress cleaning as we wait!

 

[Teche]

This happens more I think when a man is shorter and more round in the middle. They need pants to fit the belly and with shorter legs it makes them baggier even if that isn't how that style would look on a taller man.

Many short men have their pants length altered.

 

[Megnut]

Outside the Delphi courthouse the other day with everyone wearing clothes for cooler or cold weather. Lots of dark clothes including a few blue coats or jackets.

Note: Faces cannot really be seen and it will blur if you try to enlarge it.

Spoiler: Delphi Court House - Cold Weather Clothes.

View attachment 544055

Not directed at the OP.

Making an observation about the courthouse photo. Enlarged, the faces are indeed blurred. I can see what they're wearing but I can't make out facial features. (Not unlike a certain video, filmed in fear.)

I won't, I wouldn't, but if I were tasked with identifying any of the folks in that photo, I'd have to start with what people who were there said they were wearing.

We know from the photo those people were really there.

Just like we know RA was really at -- and ON -- the bridge -- after noon that day... witnesses described BG, Libby filmed BG, RA described himself, no one saw two BGs... BG comes into focus...

"It wasn't me if it came from their camera."

That is a WILD qualifier.

Weak denial.

He knows that's him. He wants no association with the victims.

Even he can't get around the obvious -- Libby captured him on video.

The same guy the witnesses saw.

JMO

 

[minor4th]

No verdict still?

 

[MassGuy]

Now we know that the sticks were just covering them and that could be undoing or literally just trying to cover them to hid them and delay anyone finding them.

The redressing I really am wondering if he had some period of time there that he didn't know what to do. It sounds like this did not go as he had planned for it to. I'm sure what he imagined leading up to this crime was one version and then when he was actually in the moment committing the crime, things didn't go according to plan. Going through the water means now they are wet and cold. Abby's clothing being down by the water might have meant she couldn't get to them so he just said put on these.. or she might have been shivering. I do wonder if he let her redress as another form of control. Be quiet and I won't hurt you. Put these clothes on to try to help calm her or something. That may not be part of his plan at all.

So while I can understand LE saying these were signatures and they are, they literally may not have been part of what he actually intended to do when he set out that day. IF he committed another murder would he need to do this same thing with sticks and redressing to fulfill something he needed? I don't know.

Another signature would be the way he killed them, fairly precise slash marks across their throats.

Out of all the cases I’ve followed, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like that when a sharp weapon was used.

That’s why a box cutter is perfect to me, as I’d expect stab wounds with a knife.

 

[Tortoise]

haven't watched it yet -

 

[candycane]

I am really conflicted on this trial. I am normally gung ho for the prosecution in cases, but so much doesn't fit for me in this trial. And if this is the wrong person that isn't justice for Abby and Libby. I do want justice for Abby and Libby and that means the true killer needs to be convicted and I'm very unsure he is the right person.

Same. Every time I read the reasons for guilt, there is an alternate explanation. Off the top of head, I think that:

- some point to alcoholism/depression - but that describes a lot of people
- no DNA in car or clothes because he had years to clean up everything - why not just get rid of that evidence - he had years to discard and that is what almost all guilty people do, they sell the car, burn the clothes etc.
- internet history - usually there is a plethora of info there that points to anti-scoial inclinations, nothing here

Richard Allen's guilt just isn't beyond a reasonable doubt IMO when you dig deeper.
I think there is a chance he's guilty but BARD?? Not convinced.

 

[flashy09]

Now we know that the sticks were just covering them and that could be undoing or literally just trying to cover them to hid them and delay anyone finding them.

The redressing I really am wondering if he had some period of time there that he didn't know what to do. It sounds like this did not go as he had planned for it to. I'm sure what he imagined leading up to this crime was one version and then when he was actually in the moment committing the crime, things didn't go according to plan. Going through the water means now they are wet and cold. Abby's clothing being down by the water might have meant she couldn't get to them so he just said put on these.. or she might have been shivering. I do wonder if he let her redress as another form of control. Be quiet and I won't hurt you. Put these clothes on to try to help calm her or something. That may not be part of his plan at all.

So while I can understand LE saying these were signatures and they are, they literally may not have been part of what he actually intended to do when he set out that day. IF he committed another murder would he need to do this same thing with sticks and redressing to fulfill something he needed? I don't know.

I have a feeling he would have preferred them both to be dressed and the sexual part of his crime covered up. Something happened with Abby's clothes - she either dropped them in the creek or he put them in the creek because he was nervous about DNA (even just touch DNA). Only one girl could be dressed and he chose Abby for some reason. Maybe she was shivering the most. Maybe she looked the youngest and that ashamed him.

 

[Willow Knight]

Yep it’s definitely him without a shadow of a doubt in my mind. His body is weirdly shaped which is why BG matches him.

MOO

MOO

Something has been curious for me regarding his interesting body shape. Are there any pictures of RA with his arm straight down next to his body?

It could vary, however when I lay my arm down, close to my body my elbow is level with my waist. The palm of my hand is right below my butt.

It could vary greatly from person to person, just wondering if anyone else noticed this?

 

[joe jones]

We know that the crime scene looked like from the testimony at trial. He was looking at the same thing.

Two signatures right off the bat were the sticks (especially the ones across their necks), and the fact that Abby was dressed in Libby’s clothes.

Both of those things were not necessary to commit the crime, but they were necessary to the killer.

And I find the he was disturbed from his initial attempts where he wanted to SA them and decides he has to kill them, so he takes them down and embankment, across the creek, up another embankment, makes them strip, redressed one of the girls, puts other clothing in creek, gets sticks and very long cumbersome branches to place carefully by each girl, sets off for home knowing he has to walk on road to get to car, oh and if the jury are to accept the muddy bloody witness he waited over time an hour after killing them if the states theory is to be believed,
If disturbed he either kills them near to where they were or he runs away, he doesn't do all those other things because he could be disturbed and seen again
And I really don't accept the idea that he intended to rape the girls in the area they were at bottom of hill, it was broad daylight anybody could have walked down the hill and seen them
This was a deliberate choice to leave them how they were left, posed as they were, sticks placed not to conceal but holding some meaning to killer,
The defence were hampered by the judge in being able to focus on the weirdness of crime scene, I just hope jury are able to see just how strange the scene is and realise that the way it is has meaning to the killer/s

 

[Tortoise]

haven't watched it yet -

Jury asked to watch the Holeman interrogation video and BG video. They leave at 2 today.

 

[MassGuy]

And I find the he was disturbed from his initial attempts where he wanted to SA them and decides he has to kill them, so he takes them down and embankment, across the creek, up another embankment, makes them strip, redressed one of the girls, puts other clothing in creek, gets sticks and very long cumbersome branches to place carefully by each girl, sets off for home knowing he has to walk on road to get to car, oh and if the jury are to accept the muddy bloody witness he waited over time an hour after killing them if the states theory is to be believed,
If disturbed he either kills them near to where they were or he runs away, he doesn't do all those other things because he could be disturbed and seen again
And I really don't accept the idea that he intended to rape the girls in the area they were at bottom of hill, it was broad daylight anybody could have walked down the hill and seen them
This was a deliberate choice to leave them how they were left, posed as they were, sticks placed not to conceal but holding some meaning to killer,
The defence were hampered by the judge in being able to focus on the weirdness of crime scene, I just hope jury are able to see just how strange the scene is and realise that the way it is has meaning to the killer/s

Of course it has meaning to the killer, and we see this stuff in lots of sexually motivated murders involving serial killers for example.

Long before we ever learned about the crime scene, I believed that he was behaving like one, and the crime scene shows that.

That’s why this fits so perfectly.

 

[Megnut]

One thing I didn't think of until now is that he may have used the boxcutter as another means of control, without necessarily planning for it to become the murder weapon. A blade to my BF's neck would be a compelling, terrifying deterrent. It was also a dynamic situation, as evidenced by the sudden, new variable -- the van. RA could have forced AW to undress, then redress, telling them he'd let them go if they cooperated. And now holding a blade to one neck, the scene could have shifted. Either girl moves, control collapses and he slices. Reactive. Even to him, who started this awful series of awful events, it had to be as if out of a horror movie, one victim spiraling while losing blood under pressure.

One of RA's confessions -- that only the murderer would know -- gets lost in all this.

That the girls didn't die immediately.

Only someone who was THERE (or an MD who knows the nature of the wounds and the process of death by exsanguination). RA said he didn't want them to suffer. I dont believe he was suddenly compassionate or magnanimous, but I do believe he saw firsthand that their deaths were not immediate. And he waited there. To make sure they were dead. All the way dead. Until their suffering was over.

You'd have had to be there to know that.

JMO