CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #5

[Lucy6226]

Do some people think that kids are "unsupervised" if the parents are asleep while the kids are playing in another room of their home? It seems to me that is just normal family living.

In the safety of their bedroom maybe. Not free reign with access to the kitchen and sharp implements. Not aged 4 & 6 with possible delayed development/ASD imo.

There was a case years ago in the UK. 5 year old boy was trying to make himself a sandwich, climbed on the worktop and fell onto a butter knife and died. Absolutely tragic set of circumstances. I'm sure his parents thought him using a blunt butter knife was safe. MOO.

 

[BCSleuth]

Are you in Canada? Canadian Child Welfare Services might work different than these in the US.

I'm in BC.

 

[BCSleuth]

In the cases you noted (yours) mandated reporters likely had no reason to question natural occurring developmental delays. Sometimes as professionals we can assess that developmental delays are environmentally caused (such as neglect) and could result in cps involvement

Okay, but that is why I highly doubt development delay alone was the reason for CPS to visit. As I said earlier, somebody along the story line is softening it up.

 

[BCSleuth]

I asked AI about it. Here is what it said. Always so much more eloquent that I am.

----

Q: if a child in grade 1 is showing developmental delays, would that be a reason to contact protective services?

A: Developmental delays in a first-grader, such as difficulties with speech, motor skills, or social interactions, are not typically grounds for contacting protective services unless there’s evidence or suspicion of abuse, neglect, or endangerment contributing to the delays. Protective services, like Child Protective Services (CPS), focus on situations involving maltreatment, unsafe living conditions, or failure to meet a child’s basic needs (e.g., food, shelter, medical care).
If the delays are observed in a school setting, the first step would usually be to refer the child for evaluation through the school’s special education team or a pediatrician to assess potential developmental disorders (e.g., autism, ADHD, or learning disabilities). Parents or guardians should be involved to address the child’s needs, possibly through an Individualized Education Program (IEP) or medical intervention.
Contacting protective services would only be warranted if there are additional red flags, such as signs of physical or emotional abuse, severe neglect (e.g., untreated medical conditions or malnutrition), or an unsafe home environment. For example, if a child’s delays are accompanied by frequent unexplained injuries, extreme hunger, or reports of being left alone for extended periods, those could justify a report. Mandated reporters, like teachers, are required to report suspected maltreatment, but delays alone don’t meet that threshold.

 

[musicaljoke]

In the safety of their bedroom maybe. Not free reign with access to the kitchen and sharp implements. Not aged 4 & 6 with possible delayed development/ASD imo.

There was a case years ago in the UK. 5 year old boy was trying to make himself a sandwich, climbed on the worktop and fell onto a butter knife and died. Absolutely tragic set of circumstances. I'm sure his parents thought him using a blunt butter knife was safe. MOO.

An accident like this can happen even with adults present. A child is not unsupervised if playing in a different room in the house. If that constitutes being unsupervised then every parent would be a criminal.

 

[su5ie]

An accident like this can happen even with adults present. A child is not unsupervised if playing in a different room in the house. If that constitutes being unsupervised then every parent would be a criminal.

I love my daytime nap or to borrow the Spanish term lol my siesta and in my younger years a lie in at weekends . As a mother of neurotypical children and a neurodivergent child there is a massive difference in how I reared them and at what age I felt comfortable enough to have a little shut eye either in bed or on a recliner chair . None of the children were extremely early risers and typically would have woken naturally from age 1 / 2 at about 8.30am / 9.30am

NT children , I would be comfortable having either daytime nap or lie in from age 4 with them playing in the same room as me and TV on , if i was in bed most likely they would be beside me sitting on the bed inside next to wall and me on outer side so I could feel if they got out of the bed , bedroom door was shut ,so I would hear if they tried to sneak downstairs . From age 9 I could trust they would not go outside or touch anything dangerous like knives , electric appliances and always I would lay out food and snacks so they didn't need to get anything from kitchen .

ND child , not in hells chance would I have slept in or napped during the day unless that child was napping with me , I suppose I was lucky they had a nap after school most days so I would sleep with them . From teenage years , I could possibly get a little nap sitting beside them on a recliner sofa but again snacks prepared , toys out ,favourite TV show on ,doors locked . Alarm set

Generally with both sets of children if I was tired ,we chilled watching a movie for some downtime or another adult was supervising or I took a nap before they came in from school as I was a stay at home mum or only worked part time

 

[Sjöberg]

From age 9 I could trust they would not go outside or touch anything dangerous like knives , electric appliances and always I would lay out food and snacks so they didn't need to get anything from kitchen .

Generally with both sets of children if I was tired ,we chilled watching a movie for some downtime or another adult was supervising or I took a nap before they came in from school as I was a stay at home mum or only worked part time

As a European, this sounds so bizarre, as NT kids in in my hood start to walk to school by themselves at the age of 6-7 and spend the afternoons home alone (lessons ending at 13-14, parents arriving post-17). There are pretty much no stay-at-home mums etc. I'm really interested if this really results in European children dying more often than US children? And where is Canada in all this?

So what I really meant to say, is that parenting norms vary and so far we have heard of nothing extreme about the parenting. There might be problems, there might not, we really don't know. But where are Lily and Jack?

I am still keeping options open for:
* Wandered away (one boot print at a probable location)
* Harmed by family members (lack of evidence?)
* Abducted, probably opportunistically (lack of evidence?)

I have a feeling we will get nothing new on this case for a long time.

 

[Hexe]

As a European, this sounds so bizarre, as NT kids in in my hood start to walk to school by themselves at the age of 6-7 and spend the afternoons home alone (lessons ending at 13-14, parents arriving post-17). There are pretty much no stay-at-home mums etc. I'm really interested if this really results in European children dying more often than US children?

As a fellow European, that's actually not a common approach here. Maybe in your country, but in most of the countries leaving a child aged seven or less home alone is against the law.

 

[Sjöberg]

As a fellow European, that's actually not a common approach here. Maybe in your country, but in most of the countries leaving a child aged seven or less home alone is against the law.

Any laws about leaving a child home alone are AFAIK about extended periods of time - say, parents going away for a weekend or partying and such. Not about a few hours or backyard play or doing homework after lessons. And even single moms take showers or take out trash, youknow.

In my country, we actually have the opposite in law. Or well, not law, but legal guidelines by the cancellor that say (loosely translated): from the age of 6-7, the kid has an obligation to attend school, and as a general norm, the kid must be made able to attend school independently, this can include arriving home alone before parents and being at home alone. From the moment the kid is considered mature enough to start attending school, the kid is also considered mature enough for that. This is also based on the curricculum for pre-schools that state, that by the age of 6-7 it is mandatory that the kid has developed sufficcent skills for that (acts independently, is responsible for his/her actions, knows about health and safety, can do basic self-care, etc).

In any case, I think we'd need some Canadians opions on that if letting a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old play in the backyard in the morning without eyes on them is considered negligent or normal over there. Honestly, over here no-one would bat an eye on that alone. The lack of prepping them for the day and going out has a different vibe though (making sure they brush, have breakfast, get dressed properly).

 

[su5ie]

As a European, this sounds so bizarre, as NT kids in in my hood start to walk to school by themselves at the age of 6-7 and spend the afternoons home alone (lessons ending at 13-14, parents arriving post-17). There are pretty much no stay-at-home mums etc. I'm really interested if this really results in European children dying more often than US children? And where is Canada in all this?

So what I really meant to say, is that parenting norms vary and so far we have heard of nothing extreme about the parenting. There might be problems, there might not, we really don't know. But where are Lily and Jack?

I am still keeping options open for:
* Wandered away (one boot print at a probable location)
* Harmed by family members (lack of evidence?)
* Abducted, probably opportunistically (lack of evidence?)

I have a feeling we will get nothing new on this case for a long time.

I'm European, irish to be exact . I would actually be really interested in those stats too . Does it result in more or less deaths or injuries caused by accidents during unsupervised home alone time . Legally you cannot leave a child under 14 -16 alone for extended periods and a child under 14 and over 10 only for short periods say to go to local shop less than 2km away and depending on maturity level


For me finding only the single boot print would indicate a child being carried most of the way and prehaps a boot loosened and dropped to the ground or a child slipping from an adults grip and one foot being placed on the ground momentarily before adult hoists child back up on hip . I can see no other reason for no other boot impression in the immediate area where it was found

 

[Ontario Mom]

In any case, I think we'd need some Canadians opions on that if letting a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old play in the backyard in the morning without eyes on them is considered negligent or normal over there. Honestly, over here no-one would bat an eye on that alone. The lack of prepping them for the day and going out has a different vibe though (making sure they brush, have breakfast, get dressed properly).

It's considered perfectly normal where I am & it happens literally every day. I live a block away from the grade school and kids are outside by themselves in their yards, all the time. They also walk to school by themselves - the same as I did starting at age 5. I'm also a mom of 7 & step-mom of 2 and that has been our family's normal since I was a child.

 

[CityKid]

If I had a dollar for every child I'd seen happy, smiling, clean pictures of who was actually living a nightmare, I'd be rich.

Photos aren't reality. Very few families take pictures for public eyes of the rough stuff.

Not saying this was the case for Jack and Lilly, but you can't rely on a picture to be the 'truth'.

MOO

I'm not saying that photos of smiling, clean, healthy-looking children mean everything's OK at home; I mean that outsiders would be less concerned with their living conditions than they would be with children who came to school dirty and looking like they weren't getting enough to eat at home. MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm European, irish to be exact . I would actually be really interested in those stats too . Does it result in more or less deaths or injuries caused by accidents during unsupervised home alone time . Legally you cannot leave a child under 14 -16 alone for extended periods and a child under 14 and over 10 only for short periods say to go to local shop less than 2km away and depending on maturity level


For me finding only the single boot print would indicate a child being carried most of the way and prehaps a boot loosened and dropped to the ground or a child slipping from an adults grip and one foot being placed on the ground momentarily before adult hoists child back up on hip . I can see no other reason for no other boot impression in the immediate area where it was found

If the boot print was next to a mud puddle that would make sense as to why just the 1 impression.

 

[MistyWaters]

It's considered perfectly normal where I am & it happens literally every day. I live a block away from the grade school and kids are outside by themselves in their yards, all the time. They also walk to school by themselves - the same as I did starting at age 5. I'm also a mom of 7 & step-mom of 2 and that has been our family's normal since I was a child.

This discussion is moving away from the situation in this case because Lilly and Jack would not be missing if they were found in their backyard. I don’t think it’s normal parenting to have absolutely no conversation about the day with children in the morning, especially when one of them is too sick to go to school, to essentially ignore them, not knowing what they’re up to so that when they sneak outside without telling or asking and then disappear, nobody realizes they’re even gone except for the silence they leave behind.

JMO

 

[TMich6811]

I'm European, irish to be exact . I would actually be really interested in those stats too . Does it result in more or less deaths or injuries caused by accidents during unsupervised home alone time . Legally you cannot leave a child under 14 -16 alone for extended periods and a child under 14 and over 10 only for short periods say to go to local shop less than 2km away and depending on maturity level


For me finding only the single boot print would indicate a child being carried most of the way and prehaps a boot loosened and dropped to the ground or a child slipping from an adults grip and one foot being placed on the ground momentarily before adult hoists child back up on hip . I can see no other reason for no other boot impression in the immediate area where it was found

This is a good assessment of the boot print

 

[Ontario Mom]

This discussion is moving away from the situation in this case because Lilly and Jack would not be missing if they were found in their backyard. I don’t think it’s normal parenting to have absolutely no conversation about the day with children in the morning, especially when one of them is too sick to go to school, to essentially ignore them, not knowing what they’re up to so that when they sneak outside without telling or asking and then disappear, nobody realizes they’re even gone except for the silence they leave behind.

JMO

If that's what happened, I'd agree that it's not normal parenting.
Problem is, we don't actually know that this did happen.
We know what's been released by their mom & DM, but there's a lot we don't know.

We don't know what other conversations were had that morning aside from Lilly being told to be quiet for the baby's sake. We do know that Lilly came into the parent's room at least once, but we don't know what all was said. For all we know, mom (or DM) got up at 6am & checked on the kids then they made the decision to report them both absent for the day. If that happened, we also don't know what that conversation was but a reasonable guess would be either Lilly said she didn't feel good or Jack complained that he didn't feel good or mom just said "you're both staying home today". Any of those things could have happened but we just don't know for sure.

We also don't know what time the kids initially got up, or what they were doing (getting bowls of cereal? making toast? getting something to drink? watching cartoons? playing with their toys?) or how long they were playing inside/outside before they were missing. I believe DM stated at one point he thought it was maybe 20 minutes he drifted off to sleep after hearing Jack in the kitchen, and woke up and it was too quiet.

Either way, there's a lot we just don't know for a fact.

 

[iveyguy]

LE have put out a reward, which, correct me if I'm wrong is not usual practice this soon in a missing child case?

This is not technically true. The reward is not specific to this case and it's not being offered by LE. The province of Nova Scotia has added the case to a large list of unsolved crimes, all of which are potentially eligible for a reward (more here: N.S. missing kids: Province offers $150K reward in search for Lilly and Jack | Globalnews.ca )

 

[su5ie]

It's considered perfectly normal where I am & it happens literally every day. I live a block away from the grade school and kids are outside by themselves in their yards, all the time. They also walk to school by themselves - the same as I did starting at age 5. I'm also a mom of 7 & step-mom of 2 and that has been our family's normal since I was a child.

Yes children would walk to school alone or in a crowd of kids from the neighbourhood depending on how near the school is , in general most parents here would walk their children to school up until at least age 7 . It is just the norm and it would be frowned upon by people if we allowed a 4 to 7 year old walk alone unless the child was accompanied by an older sibling . I guess we tend to baby our children up until about 6 years old and I know children of that age can be more capable than we give them credit for its just irish society.

If that's what happened, I'd agree that it's not normal parenting.
Problem is, we don't actually know that this did happen.
We know what's been released by their mom & DM, but there's a lot we don't know.

We don't know what other conversations were had that morning aside from Lilly being told to be quiet for the baby's sake. We do know that Lilly came into the parent's room at least once, but we don't know what all was said. For all we know, mom (or DM) got up at 6am & checked on the kids then they made the decision to report them both absent for the day. If that happened, we also don't know what that conversation was but a reasonable guess would be either Lilly said she didn't feel good or Jack complained that he didn't feel good or mom just said "you're both staying home today". Any of those things could have happened but we just don't know for sure.

We also don't know what time the kids initially got up, or what they were doing (getting bowls of cereal? making toast? getting something to drink? watching cartoons? playing with their toys?) or how long they were playing inside/outside before they were missing. I believe DM stated at one point he thought it was maybe 20 minutes he drifted off to sleep after hearing Jack in the kitchen, and woke up and it was too quiet.

Either way, there's a lot we just don't know for a fact.

We know Daniel spoke about what's online and rumour and false allegations on SM . Do you think there is a reason he is not giving a description of what the kids morning looked like in regards what time they got up at or if they were fed breakfast by either himself or Maleyha. I feel he is so vocal about everything that to quell speculation that the kids were "neglected " that morning he would have filled in the gaps by now .

He states he could here jack in the kitchen . But what could he hear? Was the TV in the kitchen ? as you've addressed in your final paragraph all the things the kids might have been heard doing . I feel part of the narrative of that morning is second guessing by both parents and made to sound as if the parents were alert and just resting . It seems like an appeasement for cps and not a true version of events. In saying that I think it would be something that many many adequate parents would say in the circumstances

 

[sapphire blue]

If I had a dollar for every child I'd seen happy, smiling, clean pictures of who was actually living a nightmare, I'd be rich.

Photos aren't reality. Very few families take pictures for public eyes of the rough stuff.

Not saying this was the case for Jack and Lilly, but you can't rely on a picture to be the 'truth'.

MOO

Photos may look happy and smiling, but often if they are living a nightmare it’s reflected in their eyes, there’s a sadness or dull appearance to their eyes.

 

[AddyFinch]

In a remote area where they lived, I would never leave my kids to get on and off bus, until 8 and older, and would never leave them to come into house alone until teens. Only d/t remoteness. Anyone could be following that bus, bears could be lurking, someone could be inside the house. Herein lies the difference... the remoteness.
Fenced and gated backyard play, they would be out there from 3yrs on, but bear awareness is always foremost. Front yard, never even in urban area (nowadays)
But as I said before that backyard was a danger zone for all the junk. If it was cleaned up, no problem. I read somewhere that they liked to play at the immediate wood line, even that to me is acceptable. These communities are usually bear aware, and when one is found to be targeting neighbourhoods/areas the notice is put out and attempts to find bear is taken on by authorities.
I think the photos of the kids being filthy are normal children at play. They aren't posed, they are just being kids. The teachers would know different if they came to school every day in rough shape.