Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #211

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.

Richard Allen has been arrested and charged with the murders of Abby and Libby

ISP page dedicated to the investigation (includes audio of suspect)

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

PICTURES OF ABBY AND LIBBY
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Thread #210

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Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video
Hidden True Crime
Lawyer Lee
Grayhuze youtube channel
Murder sheet YouTube

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

NOTE - per Tricia and Sillybilly’s 5.28.2021 post here, JBC as a poi is now open for discussion in the Delphi thread.

Added 12/12/21
For general discussion on KAK’s current case please use his thread.
IN, Peru - Kegan Anthony Kline, 27, arrested Aug 29, 2020, 30 Counts associated with CSAM

 

[Tricia]

A consolidation of ADMIN & MOD notes (edited November 24, 2022):

- Members are allowed to discuss Richard Allen's voice as heard on the Gray Hughes podcast. Members may NOT link directly to RA's wife’s social media accounts.

- Speculation about RA’s possible involvement in other cases belongs in the OTHER CASES thread.

- Speculation that is not based on known fact is not allowed.

- Please use initials only for anyone other than victims or perps.

- If you have questions about rules or moderation, please do not ask them on the thread. Just jump off any post to use the Report feature to ask and a Mod or Admin will respond as soon as possible.

- Rumors are not allowed. If you can't link information to Websleuths approved sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

- Sleuthing or discussing RSOs just because they are on the registry is not allowed. A thread specific exception may be made by Tricia or an Admin depending on geographical location in relation a crime.

- Photo alterations or side-by-side comparisons of unrelated pictures are not allowed.

 

[Tricia]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sorry folks, but statement analysis, body language analysis, amateur handwriting analysis is not allowed unless sourced to a credentialed, forensic specialist involved in the case under discussion.

This discussion is dedicated to Abby and Libby. Posts that do not relate directly to their case are off topic and such posts get removed. If you wish to discuss personal matters, please do so with your WS friends through PM or in the basement.

Also, the presumption of innocence is part and parcel of the judicial process. It does not apply to the general public who are entitled to express their opinion. Members are not here to be lectured or chastised by others for expressing their personal opinions. If you have an issue, use the Report feature and let Mods or Admins determine what is or is not okay to post.

Thanks.

Sillybilly
WS Administrator

Click here for The Rules

 

[shonyakay]

He needs a version with him off the trails by 1.30pm IMO

if he arrives at 1.30 pm he is obviously Bridge Guy

And there is no way RA could have made it to the bridge out onto the first platform without being seen by that group of girls' who were at the bridge taking a picture at 12 something that day.

 

[mrjitty]

And there is no way RA could have made it to the bridge out onto the first platform without being seen by that group of girls' who were at the bridge taking a picture at 12 something that day.

Sure. I mean we know there are no such girls. If there were, they would have been in the Franks along with RAs exculpatory phone data.

He saw the girls that lock him into 1.30 because he is Bridge Guy. It's the same reason why he put himself on platform 1. At trial we learned for the first time that Bridge Guy saw SC. A critical detail.

RA has been confessing the whole time.

IMO

 

[katydid23]

I have asked this before, and could not find any information to answer it until recently: in the video made on LG's phone, when the kids are heard talking, do they sound scared at all? Do they sound terrified?

According to this link, IN v. Richard Allen: Delphi Murders Trial, it doesn't sound like the kids sounded scared in the video made on LG's phone. I'll provide the quote from the link below:

• "Reporters in court heard the voice say, “There’s no path. The trail ends here, so we have to go down here?”
• Several reporters said the tone of the comment sounded like a question."

Is it possible the girls weren't scared? Is it possible they knew the person they went with that day? I've not heard or read any articles since the trial began that suggest the kids voices sounded frightened at all - has anyone?

At the end of the video Abby asks 'Is he right here? [meaning behind her]---and then says 'Don't leave me up here"
so it sounds to me like she was worried.
And then Libby mentions 'GUN' ---so at that point they were scared for sure.

It just seems odd to me that people are now trying to say that Bridge Guy, who forced these girls off the bridge at gunpoint, is really not such a bad guy after all. Like maybe the girls weren't scared of him and went along voluntarily for a lark?

 

[Niner]

Monday, November 4th:
*Trial continues (Day 15) (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Initial bond @ $20M on 10/27/22. On 2/16/23 held with no bond.
Amended charges (on 1/18/24/granted on 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Plead not guilty. Carroll County
*Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer [8/1/24] of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial is over.
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon. Prosecutors rested their case on 10/31/24. Defense began their case on 10/31/24.
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency on 10/25/24. 3 Alternates left (3 women). Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-13 (10/18-11/1/24) reference post #4 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...hi-murders-richard-allen-arrested-210.727848/
11/2/24 Saturday, Trial Day 14: Defense witness: Max Baker, IU graduate and defense intern, back to the stand [he compiled the videos of Allen while in Westville].
*The 10 videos were taken during April 2023. The jury was shown videos of Allen inside Westville Correctional Facility. Allen could NOT see the videos.
*After the jury entered, the defense recessed Max Baker & briefly paused the videos. State prosecutor Nick McLeland later said he would hold on his cross-examination of Baker until all the videos are watched.
*Defense witness: ISP Superintendent Doug Carter.
*After Carter was released, the courtroom TV was moved & positioned in front of the jury. No one in the public seating area could see the videos played. McLeland renewed his objection. Jury shown more videos.
*Defense witness: Max Baker back on stand. 5 more videos shown to jurors.
For more info see post #883 (Day 14 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ers-richard-allen-arrested-209.727700/page-45
Trial continues on Monday, 11/4/24 @ 9am.

 

[shonyakay]

Sure. I mean we know there are no such girls. If there were, they would have been in the Franks along with RAs exculpatory phone data.

He saw the girls that lock him into 1.30 because he is Bridge Guy. It's the same reason why he put himself on platform 1. At trial we learned for the first time that Bridge Guy saw SC. A critical detail.

RA has been confessing the whole time.

IMO

I just want to clarify that I meant the group of girls' that saw "BG" on their way out of the trails, that locks that time in around 1:30 p.m., also proves that RA couldn't have left at an earlier time like he claimed.

To DD on February 18th, 2017 RA said he was at the trails from 1:30 to 3:30 p.m. according to the tip narrative.

Then to Holeman in October 2022 RA said he left the trails that day at 1, 1:30, 1:45 p.m.

It would have been impossible for those four girls' not to have seen Richard Allen (if RA is innocent and he left the trails at the earlier timeframe he told Holeman in 2022) since they walked the whole trail, took a picture at 12:43 p.m. on the bridge, walked back down the trail from where they came from, took a picture on a bench at 1:26 p.m., and then headed toward the Freedom Bridge to leave.

Edited: To convey the point of my post better.

 

[Davemac1]

He said he saw 3 girls. There were actually 4 girls.
Is that not a problem for the prosecution?

 

[CS2C]

Could someone clarify please, to the best of our knowledge, what are the step amounts shown on Libby’s phone/health app? Thank you in advance.

 

[mrjitty]

At the end of the video Abby asks 'Is he right here? [meaning behind her]---and then says 'Don't leave me up here"
so it sounds to me like she was worried.
And then Libby mentions 'GUN' ---so at that point they were scared for sure.

It just seems odd to me that people are now trying to say that Bridge Guy, who forced these girls off the bridge at gunpoint, is really not such a bad guy after all. Like maybe the girls weren't scared of him and went along voluntarily for a lark?

You know the D and surrogates are doing the Bridge Guy Innocence Project though.

Same as they opened the trial with the hair.

 

[jepop]

He confesses but his wife and mother persuade him to shut up about it so everyone’s life can go along as if he’s innocen

Respectfully snipped for focus; This brings to mind a line from the film American Beauty ( not the first time the line has been evoked for me here at WS).

"Never underestimate the power of denial"- character's name is Ricki - an unfortunate but irrelevant coincidence

Appreciate your thoughts and opinion in summarising.

 

[Poedelini]

He has sorrow for his new circumstances and life he lost

Super common among these guys IMO

Yes. Must be a shock to him and his family to eventually being arrested after 5 years. He probably thought he got away with it.

Jmo

 

[iamshadow21]

He said he saw 3 girls. There were actually 4 girls.
Is that not a problem for the prosecution?

Nope.

Because the girls had a phone showing when and where they were. Their account lines up with the known movements of others on the trails, including Abby and Libby. Also, I believe one of the girls was much younger, perhaps he didn't notice her. Or he lied, for whatever reason.

He saw a group of girls, and a group of girls saw him. That's in his witness statement, and theirs.

Which is bad for him, because although his phone is MIA, theirs isn't, and they have timestamped pictures from the trail corroborating the time that they, and he, were there.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I just want to clarify that I meant the group of girls' that saw "BG" on their way out of the trails, that locks that time in around 1:30 p.m., also proves that RA couldn't have left at an earlier time like he claimed.

To DD on February 18th, 2017 RA said he was at the trails from 1:30 to 3:30 p.m. according to the tip narrative.

Then to Holeman in October 2022 RA said he left the trails that day at 1, 1:30, 1:45 p.m.

It would have been impossible for those four girls' not to have seen Richard Allen (if RA is innocent and he left the trails at the earlier timeframe he told Holeman in 2022) since they walked the whole trail, took a picture at 12:43 p.m. on the bridge, walked back down the trail from where they came from, took a picture on a bench at 1:26 p.m., and then headed toward the Freedom Bridge to leave.

Edited: To convey the point of my post better.

I agree with what you say

For RA to be innocent, he had to have seen an earlier group of 3 different girls after 12, while the group of 3(4) juvenile girls see the real bridge guy.

I agree it's not possible.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes. Must be a shock to him and his family to eventually being arrested after 5 years. He probably thought he got away with it.

Jmo

I suspect there was a fair amount of drinkers remorse

 

[girlhasnoname]

I suspect there was a fair amount of drinkers remorse

I believe it's more of 'In Vino Veritas'. Liquid courage for clearly sick mind. JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

I believe it's more of 'In Vino Veritas'. Liquid courage for clearly sick mind. JMO

The perpetrators of these kinds of crimes who 'pass' well in regular society compartmentalise well, and it's not uncommon for them to use alcohol to deliberately lower inhibitions before going on the hunt. Bundy did, notably.

I don't know how many times the killer of Abby and Libby had those drinks, got his murder kit together, and went out to somewhere like Monon High Bridge and either didn't see someone he wanted or didn't have the nerve to follow through. On that day in February, everything came together in the most terrible way.

MOO

 

[Davemac1]

The trail timeline to identify Richard Allen as Bridge guy is absolutely key here and I just don't think the prosecution are doing enough to get their facts across to the jury.
The fact a day or so after the murders he said he was there between 13:30 & 15:30. But 5 (FIVE!) years later he changed that time frame to much earlier. Ask yourselves what is likely to be the more vivid memory? Days after or multiple years?
No photos in court showing the perspective Betsy Blair would've had from her vantage point to the first platform. It was about 100 yards wasn't it. Very difficult to give an age approximation from that distance. She did so anyway and the defense have been hanging on it.
As far as I can see they haven't presented exactly where the group of girls saw him on the trail and I also think at trial they didn't ask the witnesses from that group in which direction he was travelling?

When asked in 2022 if he had ever crossed the full length of the bridge on previous trips to the trails he said it was treacherous and not something he had done for years. The girls were murdered 'years' before this interview!
There are many more details that haven't been mentioned imo.
The prosecution are really showing a lack of thorough investigation to me.
They are tiny details, but in the scheme of things put together they are huge ...but I don't get the impression the prosecution are getting it across.

 

[shonyakay]

He said he saw 3 girls. There were actually 4 girls.
Is that not a problem for the prosecution?

No, because all of the timelines match up. RA's original timeline to DD from 1:30 p.m. to 3:30 p.m.

The picture taken of the group of girls' at 1:26 p.m. before they headed toward the Freedom Bridge where they encountered "BG".

A car similar to RA's captured on the Hoosier Harvest Store's camera driving westbound in the direction of the old CPS building at 1:27 p.m

On February 18, 2017 when RA mentioned he saw three girls' when he arrived at the trails at 1:30 p.m.

Since the beginning of the trial we now know there were two older teens, and two younger girls'. A 13 year old and a 12 year old in the group.

There were rumors that there was a young child with the three teens' but testimony at trial has shown it was actually a pre teen girl of 12 years.

RA also at one point described a tall girl in that group with brown or black hair which matched one of the two older teen girls', Railly Voorhies.

Kathy Shank who located the DD tip narrative says what caught her eye about the tip was the fact it mentioned this man had seen three girls' and she knew three girls' had mentioned seeing BG.

So my belief based on Kathy's testimony is one of the four girls' in the group did not see RA and RA didn't mention her because he didn't see her.

And IIRC, it was stated on here way back that only three of the four girls' were interviewed.