Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #200

[TTF14]

Is it a definite right now, is there a consensus between P and D that Abby was indeed wearing some of Libby's articles of clothing? Is there a consensus between the two that there was redressing of Abby? That's what I'm trying to figure out. And I'm not sure it's known yet, but I'm sure it will be soon if it's not.

Based on the photo of Abby on the bridge in different clothing, there is a consensus that yes, there was a redressing of Abby. There's some confusion because the clothes she was redressed in were not the clothes Libby was described to have been wearing. It's also not super clear whether she was redressed after death or before death, although the blood pattern from her fatal wound seems to suggest she was clothed when she was killed.

I expect it will become more clear as the trial proceeds.

Hope this helps!

As always, JMO.

 

[scapa]

The Media Only No Discussion thread here at might be a good place to start. There have been some recaps by Fox59 and WishTV as well. JMO

Useful links -- thanks.

I've been relying on the WISHTV updates also -- they seem quite detailed, straightforwardly timelined and set out with minimal editorializing.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 1 live blog

The trial for accused killer Richard Allen in the Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Libby German begins. Follow this blog for updates.

www.wishtv.com

 

[MiniMoo]

Because Motta pretends to be independent and non partisan when actually he is collaborating with the defence.

Why would the defence have their own YouTuber sitting in Court with them and live-streaming each day???

MOO

I don't think it uncommon for anyone in particular jobs or fields to associate or support one another.

So what if Bob Motta is a YouTuber? He is still a Defense Attorney no matter how you want to paint it.

It isn' like he has an influence over the jury with them being sequestered and having no access to the outside world.

If a senior nurse can assist one in training that may be from a different hospital and state - why not?

If an elderly coffinmaker can share knowledge of their traditional craftsmanship to someone young and learning - why not?

If an expertise Heart specialist can support up and coming ones - why not?

I'm not concerned about Bob Motta being there or not because he has no bearing on the jury, judge, trial or outcome.

Forgot to add:
JMO MOO JMT

 

[kkdj]

Thinking out loud.

(I don’t think Abby and Libby were taken elsewhere and brought back to where they were found.)

But say they were. We know they weren’t physically sexually assaulted. It seems like to me had they been kidnapped, taken to a secondary location, killed there or where they were found, there would be evidence of a physical sexual assault or at the very least obvious other physical wounds.

ETA: MOO

BBM. I haven't read everything, but where is this stated? Thanks in advance.

 

[zencompass]

Useful links -- thanks.

I've been relying on the WISHTV updates also -- they seem quite detailed, straightforwardly timelined and set out with minimal editorializing.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 1 live blog

The trial for accused killer Richard Allen in the Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Libby German begins. Follow this blog for updates.

www.wishtv.com

Dear @scapa

Thank you for this information !

 

[Simply Southern]

That is 100% unconstitutional.

I don't see any constitutional right that requires courts, judges to allow/release of information to the media or general public. The FOIA does cover what and how information is released.

Would you note, where this would be covered in the US Constitution?

The free of information act allows the release of information, excluding sealed, juvenile, national defence, and others.

Unless the judge seals certain information or an appeal is filed anyone should be able to file a FOIA request to the appropriate department, pay the fees and obtain after the trail. FOIA does not provide for release of evidence prior to a trial.

FOIA Exemptions and Exclusions

Below, find concise descriptions of the FOIA exemptions and examples of information the U.S. Geological Survey may withhold under each exemption.

www.usgs.gov

Moo

 

[SouthEnd]

I don't think it uncommon for anyone in particular jobs or fields to associate or support one another.

So what if Bob Motta is a YouTuber? He is still a Defense Attorney no matter how you want to paint it.

It isn' like he has an influence over the jury with them being sequestered and having no access to the outside world.

If a senior nurse can assist one in training that may be from a different hospital and state - why not?

If an elderly coffinmaker can share knowledge of their traditional craftsmanship to someone young and learning - why not?

If an expertise Heart specialist can support up and coming ones - why not?

I'm not concerned about Bob Motta being there or not because he has no bearing on the jury, judge, trial or outcome.

To clarify, it is not the fact that the DT chose a random YT to take one of the D's alloted seats that bothers the majority of people.

It is the fact that there have been allegations that the D was leaking information to this particular YT for months in an attempt to try out their theories, see how the public reacts and circumvent the gag order. And now BR for the defence walking the same person who vigorously refused that had insider information to the Defence assigned table, makes it all seem like a manipulation.

Ps: why is it important to have the public on side? Let's see. The West Memphis Three. Leo Schoffield. Making a Murdered. Adnan Syed. There are countless cases that got appeals approved, where otherwise they'd have 0 chances and oxygen, only because of the intense public scrutiny.

All MOO

 

[TTF14]

To clarify, it is not the fact that the DT chose a random YT to take one of the D's seats that bothers the majority of people.

It is the fact that there have been allegations that the D was leaking information to this particular YT for months in an attempt to try out their theories, see how the public reacts and circumvent the gag order. And now BR for the defence walking the same person who vigorously refused that had insider information to the Defence assigned table, makes it all seem like a manipulation.

Ps: why is it important to have the public on side? Let's see. The West Memphis Three. Leo Schoffield. Making a Murdered. Adnan Syed. There are countless cases that got appeals approved, where otherwise they'd have 0 chances and oxygen, only because of the intense public scrutiny.

All MOO

The jury knows nothing about these allegations and never will (until after the trial if they care to do research on the case).

As always, JMO

 

[SouthEnd]

The jury knows nothing about these allegations and never will (until after the trial if they care to do research on the case).

As always, JMO

Agreed. I never mentioned the jury in my post. It is the optics and the implications re: wider public manipulation via coordinated leaking and dissemination of DT's talking points, theories, and protected material that's the problem by a person who claimed to be neutral to his audience, IMO. The question of what did he have to do for the DT in order to be awarded a seat.

All moo

 

[TTF14]

Agreed. I never mentioned the jury in my post. It is the optics and the implications re: wider public manipulation via coordinated leaking of DT's speaking points, theories, and protected material that's the problem IMO

I understand. But there's no proof that the defense team was leaking information to the public through BM. As you said, they are allegations, and not even from a legal authority. They are allegations from social media consumers who are pro-prosecution and anti-defense, from what I understand. And the decider of the facts, the jury, is blissfully unaware of all of it.

As always, JMO.

 

[MiniMoo]

To clarify, it is not the fact that the DT chose a random YT to take one of the D's alloted seats that bothers the majority of people.

It is the fact that there have been allegations that the D was leaking information to this particular YT for months in an attempt to try out their theories, see how the public reacts and circumvent the gag order. And now BR for the defence walking the same person who vigorously refused that had insider information to the Defence assigned table, makes it all seem like a manipulation.

Ps: why is it important to have the public on side? Let's see. The West Memphis Three. Leo Schoffield. Making a Murdered. Adnan Syed. There are countless cases that got appeals approved, where otherwise they'd have 0 chances and oxygen, only because of the intense public scrutiny.

All MOO

Social media has such a strong impact as does the media and unless those allegations are proven to be true - they are just allegations.

JMO MOO JMT

 

[Simply Southern]

<modsnip>

Indiana Rules on Access to Court Records

It appears from your article, the judge could withhold all documents and even restrict access to the court under the juveniles rule.

Excludes...and more

Rule 5: Records Excluded From Public Access.​

...
Rule 5(A) begins by recognizing that, in some instances, an entire case shall be excluded from Public Access because all Court Records have been declared confidential, but Rules 5 (B), (C), (D) and (E) make clear that in most instances it is only individual Case or Administrative Records that have been declared confidential. A court may take judicial notice of records that are excluded from Public Access, including records in cases where all Court Records have been declared confidential, such as juvenile cases. Ind. Evid. Rule 201(b)(5).

 

[SouthEnd]

I understand. But there's no proof that the defense team was leaking information to the public through BM. As you said, they are allegations, and not even from a legal authority. They are allegations from social media consumers who are pro-prosecution and anti-defense, from what I understand. And the decider of the facts, the jury, is blissfully unaware of all of it.

As always, JMO.

Completely agree to disagree, but I'd wonder why else would BM be invited to attend on the D side. For me the knowledge of DT strategy before they actually file, is quite clear, simply by clicking on the posts his official reddit profile has made and looking at the dates.

I'm not big on conspiracies but in this case there is a lot of evidence of gaming the system for the public to follow.

All MOO

 

[MassGuy]

The guards are being labelled as "skilled witnesses" which is scary to say the least.

I'm sure the D will have an expert or two to refute anything they try to say as to him faking a condition.

Of course they’re “skilled witnesses.” By the very nature of their job, they have unique experience with this sort of thing.

The most important confession here has already occurred. Richard Allen says he was there that day, wearing the same type of clothing that bridge guy was wearing.

Anything else is a bonus, potentially a big one if he did in fact mention evidence that only the killer would know, regardless of if he was mentally unwell at the time.

 

[Melted]

It appears from your article, the judge could withhold all documents and even restrict access to the court under the juveniles rule.

Excludes...and more

Rule 5: Records Excluded From Public Access.​

...
Rule 5(A) begins by recognizing that, in some instances, an entire case shall be excluded from Public Access because all Court Records have been declared confidential, but Rules 5 (B), (C), (D) and (E) make clear that in most instances it is only individual Case or Administrative Records that have been declared confidential. A court may take judicial notice of records that are excluded from Public Access, including records in cases where all Court Records have been declared confidential, such as juvenile cases. Ind. Evid. Rule 201(b)(5).

That’s for juvenile cases. As in the person being tried for a crime is a juvenile.

 

[Melted]

I don't see any constitutional right that requires courts, judges to allow/release of information to the media or general public. The FOIA does cover what and how information is released.

Would you note, where this would be covered in the US Constitution?

The free of information act allows the release of information, excluding sealed, juvenile, national defence, and others.

Unless the judge seals certain information or an appeal is filed anyone should be able to file a FOIA request to the appropriate department, pay the fees and obtain after the trail. FOIA does not provide for release of evidence prior to a trial.

FOIA Exemptions and Exclusions

Below, find concise descriptions of the FOIA exemptions and examples of information the U.S. Geological Survey may withhold under each exemption.

www.usgs.gov

Moo

The First Amendment and common law rights give the public access to judicial proceedings and records, including evidence.

The Sixth Amendment guarantees the right to a public trial.

 

[Vern]

... I worked with a WW2 vet who, 40 years ago, would speak of the things you've said here...almost to be verbatim. He'd share that some of the toughest men freaked or froze, or simply stood when to crouch was the thing to do, costing them their lives, and then there were the meek, who performed flawlessly under live fire.
...

RSBM.

Thank you for your work with Veterans. We tend be especially set in our ways. Even greater thanks if you are dealing with those who suffer from mental health issues - full diclosure: I am a Veteran diagnosed with service-related OSI/PTSD/MDD/Anxiety - 7 daily scrips and 1 X weekly scrip - some psychotropic.

Which leads me to my next bit having been involved with 2 X Trials:

1991: Serial Killer Alan Legere. My hometown of Miramichi, New Brunswick. A small town, but HUGE publicity caused the trial to be moved 2.5 hours south to the Courthouse in Burton, NB, just outside of another small town of Oromocto, NB. This trial generated HUGE publicity on the national level in the days before the internet, cell phones etc became de rigeur.
- NO mental Health assistance whatsoever was offered to jurors post-trial;
- *** Another point at the bottom follows on this trial, but is not mental health related.

Late 2010s: As a sequestered juror in Toronto, Ontario for a 3 week trial. I won't mention the name as we rendered a verdict of "not guilty".
- Mental Health Assistance was offered to all jurors post-trial .... and a follow-up was conducted a couple of months later.

___________________

The jurors in this trial will hear and see some pretty horrific things, evidence and photos.

Can anyone answer as to whether or not mental health assistance will be offered to them once this trial is over??

IMO, it should be. I really feel for them and the families.

___________________

*** In the Legere Trial, the small Burton Courthouse could not possibly accomodate the sheer volume of media and public who wanted to attend or cover it. In that case, the gym at Oromocto High School (probably 5 km up the road) was used as "overflow" with televisions set up that were broadcasting what was happening in the courthouse for the overflow media and public. That was back in 1991! The broadcast was not on TV etc as we just don't do that in Canada (then or now) we use courtroom sketch artists here (some extremely good, some Charlie Brownish).

Like everyone here, I wish Judge Gull would have considered such an arrangment for 'overflow' as rural New Brunswick managed to pull off back in the pre-high-tech days of 1991 along with, at least, a pool camera or broadcast. Then we wouldn't have to piece together dribs and drabs coming from multiple attendees who cannot possibly each capture everything being said nor the minutae details of it all. It would sooooooo uncomplicate following this case.

 

[statt#1]

maybe there is evidence of a crime that happened on the "Down the Hill" side of the creek.

I imagine in the truest sense of the word crime, then yes, there is evidence of this. But I'm gonna guess you're referring to blood evidence, or an article of clothing, or some other such item, possibly evidence of a struggle, almost surely evidence of footprints I would think. This type of testimony, should it come to pass, might shed light on the idea BG was 'interrupted' in his deeds, and also might disprove the notion the girls were whisked away to some off site area, then brought back under cover of darkness.

 

[statt#1]

RSBM.

Thank you for your work with Veterans. We tend be especially set in our ways. Even greater thanks if you are dealing with those who suffer from mental health issues - full diclosure: I am a Veteran diagnosed with service-related OSI/PTSD/MDD/Anxiety - 7 daily scrips and 1 X weekly scrip - some psychotropic.

Which leads me to my next bit having been involved with 2 X Trials:

1991: Serial Killer Alan Legere. My hometown of Miramichi, New Brunswick. A small town, but HUGE publicity caused the trial to be moved 2.5 hours south to the Courthouse in Burton, NB, just outside of another small town of Oromocto, NB. This trial generated HUGE publicity on the national level in the days before the internet, cell phones etc became de rigeur.
- NO mental Health assistance whatsoever was offered to jurors post-trial;
- *** Another point at the bottom follows on this trial, but is not mental health related.

Late 2010s: As a sequestered juror in Toronto, Ontario for a 3 week trial. I won't mention the name as we rendered a verdict of "not guilty".
- Mental Health Assistance was offered to all jurors post-trial .... and a follow-up was conducted a couple of months later.

___________________

The jurors in this trial will hear and see some pretty horrific things, evidence and photos.

Can anyone answer as to whether or not mental health assistance will be offered to them once this trial is over??

IMO, it should be. I really feel for them and the families.

___________________

*** In the Legere Trial, the small Burton Courthouse could not possibly accomodate the sheer volume of media and public who wanted to attend or cover it. In that case, the gym at Oromocto High School (probably 5 km up the road) was used as "overflow" with televisions set up that were broadcasting what was happening in the courthouse for the overflow media and public. That was back in 1991! The broadcast was not on TV etc as we just don't do that in Canada (then or now) we use courtroom sketch artists here (some extremely good, some Charlie Brownish).

Like everyone here, I wish Judge Gull would have considered such an arrangment for 'overflow' as New Brunswick managed to pull off back in the pre-high-tech days of 1991 along with, at least, a pool camera or broadcast. Then we wouldn't have to piece together dribs and drabs coming from multiple attendees who cannot possibly each capture everything being said nor the minutae details of it all. It would sooooooo uncomplicate following this case.

Oh no, ha! Here is a glaring example of how easy it is to misinterpret the printed word When I said 'worked with' a WW2 vet, I didn't mean, as in a therapeutic sense, rather, we were employed in the same small business, and spent much time together, where he, over time, opened up to some of his combat experience. I had to clarify!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The First Amendment and common law rights give the public access to judicial proceedings and records, including evidence.

The Sixth Amendment guarantees the right to a public trial.

Are members of the press in the courtroom covering and reporting to the public what's happening in this trial?