Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #200

[Melted]

Or if the screaming and yelling in the middle of the night (if any) was those who remained overnight .....

Calls for "Abbbbbbyyyyy" or "Libbbbbbbby" ....

There is a huge difference between hearing someone yelling out people’s names and screams.

A scream is a very distinct sound

IMO.

 

[Melted]

Over time there’s been substantial discussion about Leazenby’s odd comment. How could a searcher not know he had come upon a violent murder scene? Today that’s answered, the scene was so surreal that upon discovery the two bodies appeared to be mannequins. That’s how our human minds sometimes protect us from initially dealing with horrific and shocking reality. JMO

BBM

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers - Carroll County Comet

It was announced there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail William, the two middle school students who went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2017 and did not return alive. Questions about the case from both the local...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.

This doesn’t make any sense, where does it state that anyone thought the bodies were mannequins? People were searching for two missing girls and then found two bodies covered in blood I understand they would be shocked to see that but I highly doubt anyone thought they were dolls.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

We've entered a new era of information dissemination and courts need to figure out how to handle social media "content creators." jmo

Yes, we saw it with George Wagner 4's trial for the Rhoden Family Murders, too. There were a few podcasters there who came up with very interesting factoids at the end of many trial days. Also a local "journalist"/podcaster who was caught with a hidden recorder in court. The previous day, a podcaster had played a recording from the trial, supplied by the journalist. The strange part is that most of the proceedings were broadcast to the public via a pool camera. Some of them tried to appeal a ruling made by the judge for not allowing certain witness testimony to be recorded on video. Eventually, it was ruled that they had no legal standing. Podcasters don't have legal standing to remove the judge from a trial if he doesn't let them record the proceedings, at least not in Ohio. It's crazy.

 

[MassGuy]

This doesn’t make any sense, where does it state that anyone thought the bodies were mannequins? People were searching for two missing girls and then found two bodies covered in blood I understand they would be shocked to see that but I highly doubt anyone thought they were dolls.

JMO

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847699202853212239

 

[iamshadow21]

This doesn’t make any sense, where does it state that anyone thought the bodies were mannequins? People were searching for two missing girls and then found two bodies covered in blood I understand they would be shocked to see that but I highly doubt anyone thought they were dolls.

JMO

A huge amount of people who discover bodies think at first that they are mannequins or dolls. Even professionals who know they are looking for a body.

For example:

'I thought it was a doll': Emotional trial continues as agent talks about finding body

The courtroom filled with tears when images of Kamille "Cupcake" McKinney's body were shown to the jury during the third day of trial in the federal kidnapping

mynbc15.com

It's the brain protecting itself. It's a dissociative/denial reaction to something horrifying. We don't want to accept it's real, so the brain tells you it's a human shaped object, not a deceased person.

MOO

 

[AugustWest]

I’m curious, false confessions has been mentioned numerous times as if it’s an everyday occurrence. Yet the cases I’m familiar with, most occurred decades ago mainly involving LE coercive interrogations of younger suspects lasting for hours and hours until they break down, something which is no longer allowed. That’s apples and oranges to someone freely confessing to loved ones after finding god.

Do you know what is the percentage of wrongful convictions compared to overall convictions when the jury got it right? Although each instance is highly publicized and deservingly so, I think it occurs very rarely. And no reason to assume the jury is naive to the importance of the duty they’ve been tasked with. We have no choice but to trust their judgement. JMO

Fact Sheet | False Confessions

Just a few bullet points from that source.

• Since the late 1980s, six studies alone have documented approximately 250 interrogation-induced false confessions.
• False confessions make for the leading cause of wrongful convictions in homicide cases.
• More than two-thirds of the DNA-cleared homicide cases documented by the Innocence Project were caused by false confessions.
• In about 30% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.
• Multiple false confessions to the same crime were obtained in 30% of the cases, wherein one false confession was used to prompt others.

The Truth about False Confessions - Prisons and Justice Initiative

Above are some of the moments from our event “The Truth About False Confessions” held on Tuesday, March 22. Watch the full event and read a description below. Most people instinctively believe that only guilty people confess. But a great deal of both academic research and empirical evidence...

prisonsandjustice.georgetown.edu

 

[Vern]

This doesn’t make any sense, where does it state that anyone thought the bodies were mannequins? People were searching for two missing girls and then found two bodies covered in blood I understand they would be shocked to see that but I highly doubt anyone thought they were dolls.

JMO

Same article as posted earlier.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 2 testimonies

Day 2 of the Delphi Murders trial begins at 9 a.m. Saturday. Follow WISH-TV's live blog for the latest updates from the courtroom.

wishtv.com

Brown picked up his daughter around 11 a.m. on Feb. 14 and soon received a call from Mears to say they’d found Libby’s shirt along Deer Creek. Brown went to the north side of the creek and found the girls’ bodies on the way.

Brown said he thought they were mannequins at first, and became emotional as he told the court, “We found them.”

Melissa, a relative of the Pattys, was with Brown when they spotted the girls. She ran off to call the police.

 

[Betty P]

This doesn’t make any sense, where does it state that anyone thought the bodies were mannequins? People were searching for two missing girls and then found two bodies covered in blood I understand they would be shocked to see that but I highly doubt anyone thought they were dolls.

JMO

I just read in one of the media summaries today that a witness who was the searcher who discovered the bodies thought they looked like mannequins.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 2 testimonies

Day 2 of the Delphi Murders trial begins at 9 a.m. Saturday. Follow WISH-TV's live blog for the latest updates from the courtroom.

wishtv.com

Brown picked up his daughter around 11 a.m. on Feb. 14and soon received a call from Mears to say they’d found Libby’s shirt along Deer Creek. Brown went to the north side of the creek and found the girls’ bodies on the way.

Brown said he thought they were mannequins at first, and became emotional as he told the court, “We found them.”

Melissa, a relative of the Pattys, was with Brown when they spotted the girls. She ran off to call the police.

ETA: Sorry for the duplicate post/link. Its not uncommon for the average person to think they're seeing a mannequin when they discover a body.

 

[Melted]

Sounds like the D is up to their old tricks, with social media supporters following along.

JMO, this is why the judge has to be so strict during this trial. The D will try to manipulate and distort any crumb of information in this trial, then blast it around the world via social media.

Eventually, people will figure out the pattern the D uses when they amplify and distort tidbits of information.

Why would the defense care about what people on social media think? The jury is sequestered and the trial has started.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

Why would the defense care about what people on social media think? The jury is sequestered and the trial has started.

JMO

It's their job. It looks like they're certainly making an impression on the local Fox News channel. It's all about clicks and revenue generated and the defense knows that. They've got Fox now breathlessly reporting on the mysterious unidentified hair found in Libby's hand.

They only have to convince 1 juror.

Lots of publicity and conspiracy theories during the trial also makes it potentially easier to win on appeal. They're playing to the potential jury pool that will hear an appeal several years from now.

 

[Emma Peel]

Per today’s Murdersheet podcast

https://www.patreon.com/posts/114322730?utm_campaign=postshare_fan

Clarified: Bob Motta did not attend Friday’s sessions on a media pass. He was escorted by Attorney Rozzi to the defense seats.

Bob Motta did not attend today’s session. His wife and podcast co-host, Ally Motta, attended, again as a guest of the defense.

Following the trial session, MS reports that they confirmed that there was some sort of incident involving Ally Motta attempting to view the trial exhibits with credentialed media (I had thought that viewing exhibits was supposed to happen in Ft Wayne, but apparently today it was in Delphi). Judge Gull reportedly admonished her since she was not attending on a press pass nor as credentialed media.

The MS co-hosts state they were not present as they had already departed, but they had confirmed the incident.

ETA: spelling/typo

Well that clears that up.
The Defense gets a seat allotment. They can have whoever they want in the seats assigned to them.

What I can't figure out is ... why does MS even care who's at the hearing? It's a public hearing.
Why would anyone care who's at the hearing?

Me, I'm all about the technical happenings at trial.
So, I'll choose the best, highest skilled, most trial- knowledgeable critical-thinking reporters to follow so I can understand the arguments/testimony/facts/evidence that are discussed/revealed at trial.

I'm a no-drama mama; a just-the-facts gal. I don't give a crap who's in the gallery.

Well, I care that in the gallery there are skilled public reporters, able to provide fact-based reporting and reasoned trial commentary.

I don't mind some color commentary but if anyone reporting tries to turn this trial into soap opera garbage; or inserts themselves into the story ... they're booted off my source list.

JMHO

 

[Pyrite]

It's their job. It looks like they're certainly making an impression on the local Fox News channel. It's all about clicks and revenue generated and the defense knows that. They've got Fox now breathlessly reporting on the mysterious unidentified hair found in Libby's hand.

They only have to convince 1 juror.

Lots of publicity and conspiracy theories during the trial also makes it potentially easier to win on appeal.

IMO that’s why trials should be lived streamed, or delayed posted, at least in audio. I don’t trust MSM, podcasters, youtube channels, or print media to get things 100% right, especially with the draconian rules Judge G has in place.

 

[MassGuy]

I just read in one of the media summaries today that a witness who was the searcher who discovered the bodies thought they looked like mannequins.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 2 testimonies

Day 2 of the Delphi Murders trial begins at 9 a.m. Saturday. Follow WISH-TV's live blog for the latest updates from the courtroom.

wishtv.com

ETA: Sorry for the duplicate post/link. Its not uncommon for the average person to think they're seeing a mannequin when they discover a body.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard that description of a body. I was watching a true crime show last week and someone called police when they saw a body floating in water. They said that they weren't sure if it was a human or a "dummy".

I've seen quite a few dead people (natural deaths), and their bodies always looked almost impossibly pale to me. So between not wanting to believe what you're seeing, and what you're seeing not looking quite like a normal human, I think that explains why we hear that so often.

 

[BUF]

Brown said he was five feet from Libby and Abby's bodies. "I stood there facing away from them," he said. Then, police came.

Brown said you would not have been able to see the bodies from the water. He also noted that he did not have a gun on him.

The families of the girls cried in the courtroom after hearing Brown's testimony.

Delphi Girls Murdered | wthr.com

 

[TTF14]

Well that clears that up.
The Defense gets a seat allotment. They can have whoever they want in the seats assigned to them.

What I can't figure out is ... why does MS even care who's at the hearing? It's a public hearing.
Why would anyone care who's at the hearing?

Me, I'm all about the technical happenings at trial.
So, I'll choose the best, highest skilled, most trial- knowledgeable critical-thinking reporters to follow so I can understand the arguments/testimony/facts/evidence that are discussed/revealed at trial.

I'm a no-drama mama; a just-the-facts gal. I don't give a crap who's in the gallery.

Well, I care that in the gallery there are skilled public reporters, able to provide fact-based reporting and reasoned trial commentary.

I don't mind some color commentary but if anyone tries to turn this trial into soap opera garbage; or inserts themselves into the story ... they're booted off my source list.

JMHO

Well said, Emma. It sounds like this whole issue got legs it didn't deserve to have, in my opinion. I don't understand it either. I care about the questions and answers, not who is sitting where. If I want to listen to people squabble about who gets the front seat, I'll take my niece and nephew for a car ride.

As always, JMO.

 

[Melted]

I’m curious, false confessions has been mentioned numerous times as if it’s an everyday occurrence. Yet the cases I’m familiar with, most occurred decades ago mainly involving LE coercive interrogations of younger suspects lasting for hours and hours until they break down, something which is no longer allowed. That’s apples and oranges to someone freely confessing to loved ones after finding god.

Do you know what is the percentage of wrongful convictions compared to overall convictions when the jury got it right? Although each instance is highly publicized and deservingly so, I think it occurs very rarely. And no reason to assume the jury is naive to the importance of the duty they’ve been tasked with. We have no choice but to trust their judgement. JMO

“Studies of proven false confessors have shown that, even in cases involving confessions later proven to be false, juries convict in 73-81% of the cases.”

Fact Sheet | False Confessions

 

[Trebor5591]

I know where the assertion that the bullet is definitely from RA’s gun comes from. It’s from a testing laboratory whose mission includes such tests.

_Certificate of Analysis from ISP Laboratory Division – A.pdf

drive.google.com

I haven’t found the source for BW’s gun being another possibility, but suspect that it is a different one. Another lab, another expert, something like that.

Edited to fix botched link.

I found it interesting that the opinion stated definitive the bullet came for RA's gun. The was no qualification whatsoever.

"The cartridge in item 016 was identified as having been cycled in the firearm in item 314 from Indiana State Police Laboratory Case Number 19K-00197"

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Kelsi told the jury she gave DNA to police a few days ago and it was not the first time she been asked that.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 1 live blog

The trial for accused killer Richard Allen in the Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Libby German begins. Follow this blog for updates.

www.wishtv.com

During cross examination, Patty said she learned months later that Libby wasn’t wearing pants when searchers found her. She also told the court she provided a sample of her own hair two days ago for DNA analysis. Patty claimed she had done this a few times over the years.

https://cbs4indy.com/delphi-trial/grandma-ill-be-okay-libby-germans-grandmother-recalls-day-girls-disappeared-on-delphi-trail/

I don't doubt she did. It seems the state simply chose not to test the hair??

 

[Betty P]

I found it interesting that the opinion stated definitive the bullet came for RA's gun. The was no qualification whatsoever.

"The cartridge in item 016 was identified as having been cycled in the firearm in item 314 from Indiana State Police Laboratory Case Number 19K-00197"

The paragraphs just below that statement provide you with the information you seek.

Identification: An identification opinion ls reached when the evidence exhibits an
agreement of class characteristics and sufficient agreement of individual marks.

Sufficient agreement
is related to the significant duplication of random
striated/impressed marks as evidenced by the correspondence of pattern or
combination of patterns of surface contours. The interpretation of identification is
subjective in nature, and based on relevant scientific research and the reporting
examiner's training and experience.

METHODOLOGY USED To REACH RESULTS/OPINIONS/INTERPRETATIONS: Microscopic Comparison

I assume this expert is on the witness list and will be called to testify about her testing procedures and how the arrived at the conclusion. No need to jump to conclusions before the state has presented its expert witnesses.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

LOL, this is great. Cops go to a crime scene, unholster their firearm, cycle a round (you would absolutely never do that or need to do that), and just leave it there.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1847755064007618761