Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #201

[MiniMoo]

I'm not an expert on the subject but I would think someone would have taken a picture of it when they picked it up, before they bagged, labeled, sealed it up. They had a lab picture of it.

We'll see if there are CoC logs for any of the items in question.

Photos should have been taken of that unspent bullet in or on the ground as not only would a time stamp have been established, but also it's exact location between the bodies.

Not sure why no photos were taken when it was allegedly lodged in the ground somewhere between two unalive bodies.

 

[Betty P]

Relentlessly -- Defense attorney Brad Rozzi asked Sgt. Page about the cartridge found between the girls that was linked back to a gun owned by Allen.

Rozzi says that unspent bullet is face-down in the ground and the photograph investigators took at the scene doesn't show it in its entirety.

He asked several times why, saying being able to see those markings would be crucial in a case like this

Law enforcement takes stand in Delphi double murder trial

In a *lengthy testimony -- Sgt. Jason Page, a crime scene investigator with ISP -- explained how he photographed the scene and victims.The prosecution -- using

www.wsbt.com

Are they saying the state has no photos of the tool marks on the bullet? I hope I'm mistaken in thinking that was what he said. Surely there are photos of the bullet taken when testing was done?

 

[ClearAhead]

Thank you. Maybe I'm missing something?
Page 12 Search Warrant and attached property receipt w/ CoC notation.

Allen search warrant return

www.documentcloud.org

Maybe the confusion is caused by whether the search warrant is considered a working document or not. But as was pointed out by another member here a couple of weeks ago, after the SW is officially signed off it would be highly irregular for it to be altered.

 

[justtrish]

Agree, it’s as if the D was expecting a mobile lab to have been present at the scene to officially record the marks. Problem with that is until it was examined by the lab the markings wouldn’t have been known.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I guess that is always going to be the defenses tactics.. if they didn't do something THAT is wrong, but if they did do something, THAT is also going to be wrong. They have to make something out of nothing to try to confuse people.

 

[Cedars]

I'm not an expert on the subject but I would think someone would have taken a picture of it when they picked it up, before they bagged, labeled, sealed it up. They had a lab picture of it.

We'll see if there are CoC logs for any of the items in question.

I don't agree. I don't know whether you've ever tried to manage hundreds of thousands of photos, but I have and it's a full time job. You'd have to have multiple photograhers because there are multiple crime scene techs operating at the same time, especially outdoors where a storm, for eg, could degrade the evidence even further. This would have to happen at every crime scene, not just this one time, so every crime scene, everywhere.

The photographers would be walking all over the evidence, trying to get the right angles.
And there is such a thing as too much unnecessary information. They have a system for establishing chain of custody that works. If you throw in photographing every move a technician makes, that means additional hundreds of thousands or millions of photographs that have to be carefully tracked/ numbered/ preserved/ stored/ accessible.

JMO

 

[justtrish]

Are they saying the state has no photos of the tool marks on the bullet? I hope I'm mistaken in thinking that was what he said. Surely there are photos of the bullet taken when testing was done?

This can't be true. Tool marks would need to be done in the lab with proper equipment to take a photo of them. this is how they compare the markings.. so not sure how there would be no photos of that.. because they still have the bullet so they have access to put it back under the microscope to look and take more photos.. I think if the defense is suggesting there is not proof of the tool marks on the bullet at the scene, Id say of course not.. this is something examined with equipment that magnifies it to be able to compare it with another bullet.

 

[Trebor5591]

Photos should have been taken of that unspent bullet in or on the ground as not only would a time stamp have been established, but also it's exact location between the bodies.

Not sure why no photos were taken when it was allegedly lodged in the ground somewhere between two unalive bodies.

Why? Because, LE didn't always follow best practices during the course of this investigation. This is one example, IMO

 

[MrsWatson]

DBM

 

[ClearAhead]

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. I guess that is always going to be the defenses tactics.. if they didn't do something THAT is wrong, but if they did do something, THAT is also going to be wrong. They have to make something out of nothing to try to confuse people.

True, but I bet the jury has a tolerance limit and if D continue on this path, the tactic gets tuned out. It’s seems it’s already been occurring for most of the day. MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I’ve only ever heard of photos being taken at the crime scene. The lab one surprised me but maybe the lab does that themselves or something.

That would be an incredible pain in the *advertiser censored* to take pictures of every step, and I’ve never heard of that being part of protocol.

Thank you. Is the protocol the same in every state and county?

They took 3 pics of it in the ground, how much trouble would it have been to take a couple more of it out of the ground. Wouldn't you want a pic of the whole cartridge?

I notice there is a place on the property record/receipt to be signed by Investigating Officer, Submitting Officer and Witness to Recovery. Shouldn't those 3 boxes be checked?

Allen search warrant return

www.documentcloud.org

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Sgt. Datzman testified to not disturbing the unspent shell casing found near the bodies. That is the casing used to initially tie Allen to murders as the State claims markings left on the casing match Allen’s gun. The defense has criticized that claiming, countering with theories that the bullet may belong to a cop who dropped the bullet at the scene or someone else nearby.

Datzman testified that the sticks and branches on the bodies “”were of no evidentiary value” and did not have blood on them, yet they were later collected weeks later and placed in evidence storage. Some of the sticks were apparently in a triangle formation

Crime Scene Photos Shown During Delphi Trial Day Three

DELPHI, Ind. -- Graphic, bloody crime scene photos showing the bodies of Abigail Williams and Liberty German were the focal point of testimony Monday in the Delphi murders trial.

wibc.com

 

[Warwick7]

Jason Page has been with the Indiana State Police for 24 years and has worked as a detective and member of the SWAT team. He’s been a crime scene investigator for 16 years and estimated he’d been at between 950 and 1,000 crime scenes as a CSI and many more as a detective.

He arrived at the area around 1:30 p.m. on Feb. 14 and met with other crime scene investigators. Page took several photos and walked the jury through each one shown in court.

He described the area where the girls were found as “ground zero”—an approximately 30- to 40 -foot area containing most of the physical evidence.

The terrain is “pretty rough and steep,” he told the court. He showed the jury a map of the area and walked them through the topography. He described how investigators carefully marked the area near ground zero and the path leading to the girls’ bodies. He said investigators searched the scene with metal detectors and recalled a dive team conducting another search.

Page showed photos from the crime scene and described what each one showed.

One photo showed what appeared to be black marks on Libby’s body. Another showed an aerial view of the bodies with Deer Creek in the background. Jurors also saw photos of blood on Libby’s right hand and another of her left hand. Another photo showed a closeup of Libby’s face.

As Giancola had suggested, Page said the area was “saturated” with a large amount of blood on the ground. Blood was also on nearby trees; investigators used a chemical to check trees for additional traces. He also recalled that Abby’s clothes were wet.

“Her clothes were damp. I just remembered the clothes seemed damp,” he recalled.

Notes from the media pool described Page’s testimony as “calm” and almost “mechanical” as he explained what was contained within each image.

Page spoke for about 90 minutes before the court took a break. He resumed his testimony around 1 p.m

https://www.wdtn.com/news/delphi-murders-day-3-of-testimony-includes-graphic-crime-scene-photos/

I am really behind so this may have been discussed but, why 30-40 foot area for evidence? That is huge. Is it because of blood spatter? Is it because Libby possibly ran?

What are the black marks on LG's body? Dirt? Bruising?

Did she grab her neck out of shock like someone suggested earlier?

Or did blood spray out on the killer as she fought him, inturn getting blood on her hands?

Blood on nearby trees, all I could think of was him hitting an artery in the blood spraying.

 

[m00c0w]

Thank you. Is the protocol the same in every state and county?

They took 3 pics of it in the ground, how much trouble would it have been to take a couple more of it out of the ground. Wouldn't you want a pic of the whole cartridge?

I notice there is a place on the property record/receipt to be signed by Investigating Officer, Submitting Officer and Witness to Recovery. Shouldn't those 3 boxes be checked?

Allen search warrant return

www.documentcloud.org

Why are you basing the crime scene evidence on a search warrant return from 5 years after the fact?

 

[ClearAhead]

IIRC and maybe others here also remember that KG mentioned this disturbed ground by the end of the bridge as well. Curious what caused it.

Delphi Murders trial: Day 3 blog

Follow the trial of Richard Allen, accused of the Delphi Murders, as he faces charges for the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German.

wishtv.com

Giancola began looking for the girls at midnight, and couldn’t see much in the woods even with using a flashlight. He noted to the jury that he saw a “disturbance” near the end of the high bridge where bare ground could be seen. He said he pointed it out to a nearby firefighter, but eventually ended his search at 2 a.m. Feb. 14.

 

[FrostedGlass]

That's from the search of RA's home, not the crime scene.

I realize that. I can't show one for the crime scene because we don't have one. That information comes from the Franks Memo. I'm just pointing out that the CoC is apparently missing from the items taken from his home also.

I apologize for the confusion. Isn't the CoC form the same for any evidence taken from the scene?

 

[BUF]

The expected cost of Richard Allen’s trial has doubled to $4.3 million. That’s roughly $200 for every Carroll County resident.

Earlier this month, the Carroll County Council approved an additional $2.2 for the trial, Carroll County Auditor Beth Myers confirmed, although she was unsure how that money would be allocated. That’s on top of the $2.1 million the council appropriated in June.

A good chunk of the money will likely be used to house, feed, transport and entertain the 12 jurors and four alternates who were selected from Allen County, a roughly two-hour drive from Delphi. The 16 men and women from Allen County are sequestered in a hotel in the Carroll County area for the duration of the trial, which is expected to conclude in mid-November.

Crime scene investigators challenged over sticks, unspent round evidence

Lead attorney Andrew Baldwin flatly asserted it was a mistake not to immediately take into evidence the sticks that were strewn across the girls' bodies.

www.indystar.com

 

[shonyakay]

Had he not admitted he was there that day, dressed in the same type of clothing as BG, it’s probable no arrest would have ever been made.

That was added to the fact that he had mentioned to DD in his first statement that he was at the trails that day from 1:30 to 3:30 and saw the Three teen girls' at the Freedom Bridge when he arrived.
Those girls', whom LE talked to from the beginning of the investigation, identified the man they seen on the Freedom Bridge as "BG" from Libby's cellphone video.

RA = BG

 

[Spartygirl]

I'll take your word for it. I don't watch crime tv shows FWIW. I think I really really wanted DNA to be certain this is the guy . Who keeps stuff related to a crime scene like clothes he wore etc.

DNA hasn't been testified about yet, IMO

DId I miss questioning about it ???

Det Page is a CSI investigator, a photographer at crime scenes.

He is NOT a DNA expert or a ME

We will hear from those experts soon !!!

 

[MassGuy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848498179014332780

 

[m00c0w]

I realize that. I can't show one for the crime scene because we don't have one. That information comes from the Franks Memo. I'm just pointing out that the CoC is apparently missing from the items taken from his home also.

I apologize for the confusion. Isn't the CoC form the same for any evidence taken from the scene?

The itemized evidence logs were submitted as the list of items for the property receipt, as part of the search warrant return. Chain of custody forms are wholly irrelevant to the purpose of the evidence logs here, so were likely just omitted.

In other words: had to file a search warrant return showing the property seized. They used evidence logs to do so, to be thorough. There would be no reason to submit extraneous chain of custody forms with the search warrant return.

All my opinion.